ATI TV Wonder vs. All-in-Wonders?

[Norco]

Hey guys I got a question I hope a few of you can answer. Currently I have a ATI TV Wonder PCI card. It does the job alright with SVCD/DVD captures, but I want something with more balls when I'm encoding and better picture/bitrate. Now i'm looking at the All-in-wonder 7500 - and was wondering if anybody has had both and how they compare? I would guess that the all in wonder would have better quality, but both seem to have the same type of TV Tuners built in and i dont want to end up buying a new card and find out I don't get any better quality. I'll be using DishNet digital satellite through S-video as the source, and if someone could help me out as to if the upgrade is worth it i'd appreciate it, thanks!



BTW - Matrox Marvel g400-tv is s**t. MJPEG AVI encoding in Win98 is total crap, I drop frames right and left using my xp 1900 w/512 mb pc2100 ddr, not to mention it interlaces the encode all to hell.

[Goatgod77]

I have a tv wonder VE, it isnt the best quality, but it is no better or worse than the other boards in that category. I find the best quality comes from a SVHS master going into the composite. ANd don't feel bad about the mjpeg, it wont run on my machine either. Drops frames left and right.

[Norco]

Which category are you referring to? ATI TV Tuners? or ATI All-in-wonder and Cap cards in general?

[Norco]

*bump* Come on, someone out there has to have some other experience with these ATI cards. If ATI cards aren't that good for Mpeg2, what other real good card is there. I'm not interesed in the crappy Happauge cards, I'd like to get real-time encoder like that Mpeg1 PV321 or something, it looks like a amazing card, wish they had a mpeg2 version. Anyways thanks for any advice.

[Sulik]

The AIW series is much better mostly because it's AGP, and they do not have the vertical resolution limit problems that some of the PCI TVW have.

[Norco]

Thank you for the helpful tip. Like I said i'll be capping a TV show using my satellite connection, and would like to get equal quality as the broadcast. I hope this is possible. Thanks.

[Mavrick]

I have the ATI All-In-Wonder Radeon 8500DV. This card is good, and according to ATI is basically a regular Radeon 8500 with the TV Wonder PCI built in, and added DV support.

Neither solution has hardware MPEG encoding. And I’m not sure you will see a big improvement in final DVD, SVCD quality.

If you really want to cut encoding time, look for a hardware solution. You might want to check out Pinnacle Systems DV500 DVD. We have these at work, and they produce high quality output and really cut down on the time.

Here is a link to it…

http://www.pinnaclesys.com/ProductPage.asp?Product_ID=564&Langue_ID=7&menuDown=sum


Good Luck!

[Norco]

Thanks for the tip, but I was looking for something a little under 150.

[BV2001]

yeah
I have the same concern as Norco
I got a TV wonder, very good capture using MMC7.6 and I have my mind on AIW 7500 or AIW 8500 but still wondering would they have a better capture qualiy
for the AGP and PCI one, for us capture @ 10MB/s it is way slower than PCI therefore, to capture at the maximum rate PCI is still fast enough and don't need an extra speed of AGP... in another word, like this, if your maximum speed you can drive a car in a highway is 100km/h PCI with max can run @ 150 and AGP @300 for example, your speed is limit to 100, so PCI or AGP doesnot matter because both of them are higher than what it is suppose to be done.

[MOVIEGEEK]

I have AIW 7500 w/MMC7.7 and I'm very pleased with it.My first capture card was TV wonder VE but quality was poor due to my VIA chipset.
VIAs' are notorious for PCI bottlenecks but their AGP ports work great
(as long as you find the right driver).

[Norco]

Would you mind capping like a 15-20 sec DVD clip using your card? Using a source such as satellite or dvd? When I capture with my ATI TV Wonder it kind of has this glassy type look almost. But if you could give us a sample clip that would be awesome.

BTW I use PowerVCR II for capturing and it works pretty good, except sometimes it messes up on the audio and so I have to restart to fix it.

[BV2001]

MOVIEGEEK
would you mind post a small clip that you capture from dvd with your AIW ??
thanks

[disturbed1]

Doesn't the AIW, and TV Wonder use the same BT878 capture chip?

I have a TV Wonder VE in a second computer, using WDM capture drivers, I cap at 720x480 YUY2. The VE only uses mono sound, which can be bypassed by using your soundcards line in.

The capping isn't limited by the product, it's limited by ATI's MMC.

You can get 'em here http://btwincap.sourceforge.net/

[MOVIEGEEK]

Sorry people I have dial-up and it would take hours to upload a clip.
I tried those WDM drivers and they caused my system to lock up
never could get them to work.

[BV2001]

Hi disturbed 1,
I got TV wonder PCI and never can get those driver work
could you please show me how to install the drivers from fresh??
thanks...
like after plug the card in the slot what should I do??
thanks

[vhelp]

evening all.

Norco,
A capture from DVD wouldn't be a good idea. At least all the ones I've
done, the color never quite matched. Something about the color space
that DVD uses vs. a Satalite source ie DirecTV, as I have.

I've used my ATW (ati tv wonder) and ATWVE and both are fine for what
I've used them for (and still do when I'm not testing, or AM testing, etc)

In my 1st PC, I have the ATW and ATIRFP cards for capturing. I must
admit, that the ATW card (in MY pc) is a bit noisey on VHS source, but
just about anything else is ok. However, the ATIRFP is much better at
VHS source, even better at anything else. Noise is something you'll never
get rid of, no matter what you do. It's something I've ben ranting and
raving about for a while now.

On my 2nd PC, I have the WTVGO and DC10+ cards. Both produce very
good quality captures as well or better than my ATW. And in all my capturing
endeavors, I always use the Audio (stereo) through my Soundcard.

My OS is windows 98, so I use the VFW drivers for the ATW and WTVGO,
while for the ATIFRP, I use the WDM - All these cards allow me to capture
at 720x480 resolution (not DVD - people get confused and think that they
want DVD quality, bla, bla)

Just so you know, I don't do real-time capture/encodes. As, this does not
yield the best in final MPEG quality - too many artifacts. That's why you
almost always hear people say or recommend to capture in AVI. And,
with HD's being so low in price, even a 20gig would do you or anyone a
whold lot of good But, your only problem or hurdle is the capture and
encodeing part. You have to learn all the in's and out's, up's and down's.
...and that takes time.

TV shows are tricky ones. Some are IVTC'ed while other are just plain
Interlaced. It's the Interlaced ones that causes the most problems, or
at least, produces the least or poorest quality. When I say Interlaced, I
mean just plain PURE interlaced. No IVTC (telecine) for yielding a 20%
increase in quality (less blocks that is) ie, NICK-at-Nights' Cosby
show is PURE interlace, though show is, for the most part, in very good
quality.

If you'd like to see a sample clip from ANY one of these cards, or if you
just want or am curious about the quality of my ATW cards ability, then
just mention it here, and I'll see if I can come up w/ something quick.
I have DirecTV, NY time of course. Or, maybe I'll just post whatever I
come up with - maybe. In any case, you may or may not know me for
my samples (VHELPs Sample...) I have a thread where I post sample clips
of my work every other day or so or so.

-vhelp

[Norco]

When I talk about wanting to capture in 720x480, I'm referring to the fact that I'm trying to capture using the best quality the card can give me. There are definitly variable bitrates and using a tv source, you can never get the actual look of DVD source, unless ofcourse you use HDTV as a source...but thats cheating, =). Anyways, vhelp would you even think upgrading to a AIW 7500 would make any type of difference? If not which avi codecs do you recommend to capture in and then convert to SVCD/DVD in? I'm a videophile and want best picture quality possible, and if not capturing directly to MPEG is not the means to do it, please tell me elsewise. I'm very good at converting/transcoding progressive sources, such as dvd, but interlaced tv source is a whole new ball game. Any links are appreciate as the show I like to cap is on tomororw night, (amazing race, whooo!). Thanks!

BTW, I originally have a Matrox Marvel G400-TV, it does OK captures when using its MJPEG codec, but its propiatory and becomes just a major pain in the ass when converting and things dont work out. Ok thanks again.

[vhelp]

norco,

well, I used to think the same way for the DC10+ 's MJPEG quality.
Used to look washed out... till I realised I needed to do some correct
installations (un-installs and re-installs) in certain order to follow.
But, it turns out that the DC10+ produces pretty good results. It's
great w/ VHS sources too.

In mine (for VFW) , I had to first:
* un-install my Video Graphics card driver
* then, I set it to 640x480 standard mode (not 800x600 or higher)
* then, un-installed the Capture card driver(s) ALL, case you have others
from other Capture card brands
* Use a Cleaner to completely wipe out ALL entries w/ reference to your
Graphics card AND capture card
* then,
* start fresh w/ re-installing your Graphics card driver
* then, re-install your Capture card driver
* note, other codecs may cause undesireable effects ie divX codecs, so,
you may want to be aware of this - - at least I worned you.

I prefer the capture to AVI route, but in your case, that will depend on a
few things.
* HD space
* your time AND patiance
* your knowledge of capturing/codecs/encoding, etc., etc.
* what is best for you - - your convenience

For some, real-time is the way to go.
* quick
* in some cases, no need to edit or mux
* quality level to expect (1-5) up to 3 (depending on user experience)
* etc.

And for others,
* Capturing to AVI is the way to go.
* lots of knowledge of capturing/codecs/encoding etc., etc.
* authoring (not my cup of tea)
* a little bit more quality
* quality level to expect (1-5) up to 5 (depending on user experience)

Well, I'm back to continue w/ my project.
-vhelp

[Norco]

Hmm alright something to think about I suppose. I run a XP 1900/w 512 mb pc2100 ddr, and 80 gig 7200rpm ata133 maxtor. So specs aren't really a problem. AVI kind of drives me nuts now tho, after dealing with problems with my other cap card, I just dropped tons of frames when encoding in win98.

[Anonymous65]

My common problem with the ATI capture cards (all of them) is that the video is a bit soft. It does not give the cripness a 720x480 video capture card should give. Also, since there is no sharpness control, you cannot change it in any way. Some BT8x8 capture cards have a working sharpness control, like the Cybermail card. The default driver sets the sharpness at max or close to max, and it does show. The expensive A/D convertes (like the various analog to DV converters) does a very nice job at capturing crisp and sharp video, but the capture box is $300.

[disturbed1]

Hi disturbed 1,
I got TV wonder PCI and never can get those driver work
could you please show me how to install the drivers from fresh??
thanks...
like after plug the card in the slot what should I do??
thanks

I'm running Windows 2K PRO,

I didn't install the ATI software, once windows found new hardware wizzard showed up, I just cancled it out, then ran the the installer I downloaded, restarted, and everything was fine.

I either use Virtual Dub, Preimer or Vid Cap (the patched version that splits the video and audio) to cap. I've had problems with codecs other than YUY2, so I just use that.


Skittelsen:

I'd have to agree on that. I have an ancient zoran based mjpeg card (very similar to a DC10) that caps beautifully at 640x480, but 720x480 is easier to encode to DVD. Running an avisynth script to slightly sharpen YUY2 takes less time than resizing MJPEG.

[next]

My common problem with the ATI capture cards (all of them) is that the video is a bit soft. It does not give the cripness a 720x480 video capture card should give. Also, since there is no sharpness control, you cannot change it in any way. Some BT8x8 capture cards have a working sharpness control, like the Cybermail card. The default driver sets the sharpness at max or close to max, and it does show. The expensive A/D convertes (like the various analog to DV converters) does a very nice job at capturing crisp and sharp video, but the capture box is $300.

tue....but with the aiw (ati stuff) it is possible to play around and adjust the contrast and brightness along with the color depth and tint. with the right adjustments you can sharpen things up.

[Norco]

Anybody have a really good method of capturing things such as TV episodes using a ATI card? Right now I'm just encoding directly to MPEG2, and my program, PowerVCR II, uses CBR, which I think makes the encoding a little more blocky. So when i capture clips it gives this block "digital" look which I hate. If anybody can point me to a very informative method of how to cap awesome clips with this card or just a good tutorial, that would be great, thanks.

[Mavrick]

Anybody have a really good method of capturing things such as TV episodes using a ATI card?

I’m not an expert at this. I can tell you some of the things that I have learned and save me time. I make XSVCD’s only, as I’m converting home videos to CD. I have managed over time to get it down to 4 easy steps.


Step 1: Capture the video as uncompressed AVI (this gives you the best quality to work with) as close to the final output resolution as you can. This will save encoding time if it does not have to resize it. In my case 480x480 or 640x480

Step 2: Edit the captured video. I use Media Studio Pro 6.5DC for this.

Step 3: Save the edited video in Media Studio as an MPEG2 480x480 with a VBR of 4000. Field order B first. (make sure your player can play this).

Step 4: Burn the MPEG file(s) to CD with DVD Movie Factory. Make your menus etc…

That’s it!!

You can download a trial copy of Media Studio Pro from
http://www.ulead.com/msp/runme.htm

They also offer upgrade offers from other editing software – so you can get it as cheep as $129.00 for the DC version.

Works every time and I get video as good as the original… I would say its DVD quality. The down side is I can only get 20-30min per CD with a bit rate that high… but with this quality, I’ll take it!

[sectionthirty1]

@disturbed1,
I have a tv wonder ve running using the btw drivers...and when i capture above 320x240 avi, I get aliasing problems....jagged lines when fast motion occurs..is there anyway to get rid of this...or this a hardware limitation...
Thanks,
Dave

If you don't know what i mean...message back..and i'll upload the video for u to see for urself...

[vhelp]

evening all.

sectionthiry1,
what you are seeing is Interlaced lines in your captured AVI. This is
perfectly normal and IF:
* you are converting to SVCD (or MPEG-2) than you would leave it alone.
* or, if you are making VCDs, then you have to de-interlace it or if you R
in vdub, Y can use the 2:1 reduction filter ie if your capture source
is 352x480 or X by 480, the 2:1 reduction would probably be the
best choice for you - give or take a few techniques.

Norco,
I guess no one has an decent enough samples to post. oh well.

later all.
-vhelp

[vhelp]

For those of uses curious about the quality produced by the ATW card,
below is a link to my samples thread.

Just remember, that it's not just the capture card that counts, but rather,
the user (experienced user) ability to, capture; edit; and encode the source
to an MPEG file.
Having a good capture card helps, but really, to be quite honest w/ you all,
any old capture card will serve you well. Just have to know how to use it
w/out any symtims, glitches etc.
again, I say, ANY capture card will do, it is the USER that matters!
So, weather you have any of the following cards (and then some) ...
all are/can/and able to produce the same level of quality (or better) as
the sample you are about to D/L via link below.

Just burn w/ Nero and compliance OFF (though I believe you can leave it
on as well, since I'm using a max of 2520 for my bitrate)

So, how does one obtain the level of quality in their Video Endeavors??
Simple... read, read, read, do, do, do, and redo, redo, redo.
I can't TELL you what to do, YOU have to do. Too many variables to
explain, ranging from Source to Capture Card to CPU to Motherboard to IRQ to
Software Capture App to Encoder App to Video Techiques, and finally,
to User Level Experience. And, any combination of all the above.
I could show you one method, but then it probably wouldn't work for your
next Video project etc., and I can't be spoon-feading ya every day.
You best approach is to just go out and read and do, etc. Just start doing
today!

Good luck.
-vhelp
-----------------------------------
VHELP's Samples. . . updated 10.16.2002

[BV2001]

wow
vhelp,
the quality is stunning... awesome
what card do you use to capture All In Wonder ATI or ATI TV Wonder???
and do you capture it straight into VCD?? or to AVI and then reencode it to get that kind of quality???
thanks

[sectionthirty1]

@vhelp
Thanks for the reply...makes really good sense about it being interlaced therefore seeing jagged edges...How would i de-interlace it while keeping it an avi...I tried the 2:1 reduction on virtualdub changing the res to 640x480 to 320x240, hides the jagged edges but produces poorer picture quality because of the smaller res...I like my 640x320 capture except for those interlaced lines...once again for the record...Is there a way I could get rid of these lines staying at 640x480 in avi???



using 100% 1pass quality bassed bitrate divx 5.02 codec...

This is my 640x480 capture
http://www.cs.utsa.edu/~dsalazar/capat640by320.avi

This is my 640x480 capture then using 2:1 reduction in virtualdub
http://www.cs.utsa.edu/~dsalazar/320by240usingreductionn.avi

[Anonymous65]

VCD is always non-interlaced. If you feed an interlaced file to TMPGEnc, it will automatically deinterlace the video for VCD encoding. For the best looking VCD creation, capture with these settings, starting with the best settings for VCD creation:

720x480 (best)
640x480
352x480 with 2:1 vertical reduction during capture
352x240
320x240 (worst)

As always, the lower the compression of the AVI file, the better the quality of the encoded VCD file. Do NOT resize the video before feeding it to TMPGEnc. TMPGEnc will take a bit longer to encode, but the quality of the VCD will be much better.

http://steve.kittelsen.com/vcd