CVD -> DVD... Planning for the future.

[cradix]

I'm making a *bunch* of CVD's (99) that I eventually plan on converting to DVD. I have a few simple questions, though, that I hope you guys could answer:

1) Exactly how much data can a DVD hold? 4.7GB stands out in my mind, but I'm not sure. Is it like a CD, where if the CD holds 700MB, you could put an MPG about that big on it?

2) Can the human ear really tell the difference between 44.1kHz audio and 48k? Will resampling between the two ever *not* be a good idea (i.e. 48k to 41k is good, but 41k to 48k is not)?

3) DVD burning in general: What program will most burners come bundled with? Does it come with a way of creating decent DVD menu screens? Or is that a separate program? What do you recommend?

4) When burning VCD's it is sometimes an issue as to how fast you burn the CD (i.e. faster burns sometimes produce bad video). Is this a problem with DVD burners?

4.a) Off general topic: Why is it an issue with CD's as to how fast you burn? I, myself, experienced this just the other day burning at 10x. Toward the end of the video, it got worse and worse (skipping, artifacts, etc.)... not so bad at 4x burn.

5) Is the AVSEQ*.MPG on my CVD in the MPEG2 folder an EXACT copy of the one originally on my hard drive before I dragged it into Nero?

Thank you guys so much for your help! --Matt

[andydd]

Hi....

What do you mean by CVDs..? Do you mean VCD ?

Lets answer your questions.

1. According to Nero my blank DVD-R will hold 4489 MB of data.

2. I dont know wether u can hear the diff between 44 or 48 khz but it dont matter coz all audio files used in DVD HAVE to be 48 hz otherwise they wont work.

3. I use Nero to burn DVD and with no probs so far..The Pioneer a04 comes with nero although i bought was a OEM version with no software. As for authoring..Software is either expensive or hard to get hold of..I use Spruce Up which is easy to use n sometimes DVD wise which is easyish although im not convinced it work properlly ..I also have trhe Pro program DVD Maestro but that confuses me n just crashes.

4. As for burning speeds you only have an option of 1 or 2 speed at the mo so that no problem .Although the new A05 will support 4 speed. The biggest prob with DVDs after disc compatibility is to make sure its authored properally.

5. The avseq will be a dat not an mpg file but yes it is sort of the same. Most software will play dats as an mpg and u can convert it to a proper mpg using VCD gear

[Faceman101]

1. 4.38 on DVD

2. what andydd said

3. Any program that burns DVDs would be fine, menus are created in other programs.

4. what andydd said and burning at higher speeds does not produce bad video in any case.

5. demultiplex your .DAT to get the padding out of it and you will have 2 files that can be dropped onto a DVD timelime and authored.

just adding alittle more to andydd's fine post.

[andydd]

Ok..I now know what a CVD is..ha

Personally Im glad DVD writers have arrived at an affordable price (and blank DVD-rS too) so we can move all from the VCD/CVD/SVCD/ whatever !

[cradix]

Thanks for your response! Let me clear up a few things though.

A CVD is a China Video Disc. Please read:

http://www.vcdhelp.com/forum/userguides/98177.php

It is the best way I've found so far to burn Video CDs after being suggested to me many times in these forums.

I realize that DVD requires 48k audio, but my question was asked because right now I'm encoding at 44.1k. If I upsample to 48k am I going to be hurting myself in the long run? Or should I be capturing video at 48k, downsample to 44.1k for my CVDs, then keep the 48k file for when I go with DVDs finally? If there's no audible difference between 44.1k and 48k, then I won't bother with all the extra work at this moment -- I'll just take the MPG off my CVD and resample it to 48k later.

The AVSEQ*.MPG file I mentioned is infact an MPG (not a DAT file as on a normal VCD).

Question: So with DVD's there is a difference between merely "burning" and the term "authoring"? Is "authoring" where the actual menu creation comes into play? Can I download some of the mentioned programs and begin learning them without actually having a DVD burner installed yet?

-- Matt

[cradix]

Man you guys are fast posters! You just answered a couple questions before I had a chance to post that last post!!

Thanks -- Matt

[SatStorm]

The generall audio rule is: On CD 44100, on DVD 48000
Some players support 48000 audio on CD and some don't.
DVD don't support 44100 audio at all

Basicly, do a test and if your DVD standalone support 48000 audio on CD, then keep it that way. You are -X- but you save time and audio quality that way

[cradix]

I'm well aware of that fact. I know that my DVD player does not support 48k audio. That's why it's an issue for me as to whether or not I should make the effort of capturing at 48k, encoding a 44k (to put on my CVDs) and leaving a copy on my HDD for later DVD use? If there's no audible difference between 44 & 48k or if converting between the two is ultimately not a great idea in the long run, then I won't bother.

Does this make sense? If not don't worry about it.

-- Matt

P.S. -- BTW, what is "padding"?

[Cornucopia]

Some answers to your questions:

1. DVD's in the store can be single sided/double sided, single layer/double layer. DVD's that YOU can record on are only single sided, single layer. This gives you 4.7GB (actually Billions of Bytes), which equates to 4.37GB (as the computer would normally count it). And YES, if you have a video title, with audio and subtitles and menues and all that, and you end up with 4.36GB, you should be able to get it on the disc. What you CANNOT do, at this point, is OVERBURN a DVD like you maybe could with a DVD. So you should always budget for size with a little bit of safety margin.

2. Most human ears cannot tell HARDLY ANY difference at all. This doesn't mean that there is NO difference. With the right material, I can tell the difference. ANYtime you resample, redither, recompress, re-encode ANY file, there will be some difference and some loss-don't let anyone tell you otherwise. The subjective part is if there is a difference or loss that matters to YOU or to your intended audience/recipients. For most intents and purposes, you could use either one, but you know, you need to have it be 44.1kHz for AudioCD, VideoCD, and SVCD/CVD. And you need to have it be 48kHz for DVD.
What do you do? Make sure your SRC is VERY HIGH QUALITY, or if you are expecting to later on end up with DVD's and have the temporary disc space, capture and save as 48k but SRC to 44.1 for the CVD. When you're ready for DVD, use your saved 48k.
Another thing to consider is which SRC's are high quality? Go to pro audio sites and find out. As a start, I would suggest CoolEdit at its highest quality setting. It takes a while longer, but it converts transparently.

3. DVD burner programs-there is a bunch. Most come with Nero or Prassi, or with an authoring Program that burns directly. It's always good to have a range of tools to cover all your bases. Authoring programs that are REAL simplified will have pre-made menu templates that you can use, but don't give you much choice for personalization or customization. The more Pro ones expect you to make your own menus in another graphics program like Photoshop. If you're just starting out, do a simple prog and then graduate up to the more difficult but versatile ones. Think of Authoring as the braiding together of the various media strands (video/audio/subtitles/etc) with the navigation programming logic.

4. Yeah I've heard the stories, but I've burned AudioCD's and VideoCD's and Data CD's at 1x, 2x, 4x, 8x and 16x and haven't had any problem with 'em either way. Alot depends on the quality of the burner and of the media. Course if you expect to send your stuff to a bunch of other folks/clients/customers or to a replicator, it doesn't hurt to spend the time and do it slow. The same data will be burned, but the pit geomettry will be more sharply chisled and there will be LESS ERRORS in reading the disc.

5. The file xxx.mpg on your harddrive and the AVSEQxx.DAT or AVSEQxx.MPG on your VCD/SVCD/CVD are NOT identical bit-for-bit as far as filesystem attributes go (filesize, etc), but the media that each displays IS identical bit for bit. This is sometimes referred to as the "Payload". There is NO conversion going on-just padding (as in cushions) and byte alignment.

6. Burn speeds for DVD's are pretty simple right now. 1x or 2x or (for DVD+R/W)2.4x. That's it. Soon there will be 4x. Doesn't really translate from the variety of CD speeds.

7. Stop right now and take the tiime to go through the HOW-TO's and GUIDE's on this site. That will help you so much more than you think.

Happy burning!
Scott

[Cornucopia]

I said:

OVERBURN a DVD like you maybe could with a DVD

I meant to say:
OVERBURN a DVD like you maybe could with a CD.

[Revilo]

I am fairly new to all of this, so if my reply doesn't make sense I welcome the criticism. I will say that all of these replies have great information and instruction, however I think everyone overlooked one important factor. He is going to make a DVD from CVD material. What's the point? The quality will not be any better than it is on the CVD, so why bother? To me, the entire purpose of making a DVD and not a VCD, CVD or SVCD is for the quality.

-Revilo

[Cornucopia]

The point is that he(she?) doesn't have a DVD burner right now and wants to do the capture, conversion, and viewing right now. Also, if CVD video resolution is acceptable (= 1/2D1 DVD resolution and part of the DVD spec), it makes sense to capture this way if you've got lots of TV episodes that you want later to be put onto one DVD disc. The purpose may be part quality-part capacity. Since there will not need to be any re-encoding (talkin video here), nothing will get lost/degraded.
Check past threads and the GUIDE on this subject. Can be a sensible plan for the short term.

Scott

[widemouth]

Hello

I have the same issue.

I have been creating CVD's (352x576 PAL, VBR with a bitrate Average between (2000 and 5000kbps) for some time now with the hope of one day copying these CD's onto DVD's when the price is right.

I will have the same problem in that currently the Audio on the CVD is at 44.1K but reading this post, this is not compatible with DVD's.

Its mainly Home Video stuff so having to convert the Audio to 48k shouldn't degrade the audio too much. Question is, how do convert the audio without re-encoding the video with it?

Can it be done with TMPGEnc somehow?

Thanks in advance.

[Cornucopia]

widemouth:
Do this...

1. put CVD in drive
2. open VCDEasy, use VCDXrip or CDXA2mpeg to pull MPG/DAT off CD and onto harddrive as "regular" mpeg. No re-encoding involved.
3. open TMPGEnc, use MPEG Tools (FileMenu) and Simple Demux to Video/Audio (usually, for VCD=*.mpv/*.mp2, for CVD/SVCD=*.m2v/*.mp2)
4. Still in TMPGEnc, add *.mp2 as Audio source, do File|SaveAs *.wav
5. open cooledit, do SRC 44.1kHz-->48kHz, save
6. open authoring program (most like Video+Audio "unmuxed"), add separate video and SRconverted audio, Author with menus.
7. burn to DVD

If you don't want to go the CoolEdit route, try this in place of #4 and #5...
4b. Still in TMPGEnc, add *.mp2 as Audio source, Change output to "Audio Only", open template and change sample rate to 48kHz, and bitrate as needed-prob 224/256/384 for HighestQuality. Convert to *48.mp2
5b. If you want higher quality than stock TMPGEnc, add toolame and ssrc as external encoding plugins. Then do 4b.

As can be seen very much of it can be done in TMPGEnc, all using share- or free-ware.

Scott

[Revilo]

After my earlier post, I proceeded to read a guide on CVD. I realize now that the video is compliant with DVD, so it seems to be a good choice. I still don't understand why one would convert from CVD to DVD unless they simply want to eliminate the hassle of switching discs during playback. To help with the audio problem, I can only offer information which I read in the guide and following posts. It stated that some people use 48k, IF their player is capable of handling it, which some apparently are. If you can do use this, then you are all set. If not, then it appears you will be forced to re-encode the audio. The guide and following posts had a great deal of information on this subject and I would suggest that any of you with questions about this visit the guide (CVD, what it is...)

-Revilo

[Mirror_Image]

Can the human ear really tell the difference between 44.1kHz audio and 48k?

The best way to find this out is to take a 48k sample, use it to resample to 44.1k, listen to both files, and judge for yourself.

[cradix]

I still don't understand why one would convert from CVD to DVD unless they simply want to eliminate the hassle of switching discs during playback.
-Revilo

Exactly! I have 99 episodes of Animaniacs I am wanting to convert to CVD (because I currently have that technology). At the rate I'm encoding, one episode = 425MB = 1 CD. That's 99 CD's!!! If I put the exact same data on a DVD, I'm only looking at around 10 DVD's.

For the record, my Sony S560D DVD player does NOT support 48k audio -- it sounds a tad sloowww when played back. So if I'm going to create CVDs now and DVDs later, I do have to worry about reencoding. I'm not one of the lucky few who can just leave it at 48k on a CD.

I've thought of one more question for a DVD newbie (I'm sure it's in another forum or a guide, but I don't have time to look right now.) What bitrate could I encode at for a DVD? My CVD is limited to 2520 CBR, but at that rate I still have block noise, etc, that I would *love* to eliminate.

Thank you everybody for all the wonderful input into all my questions! --Matt

[Scobo]

The easiest way to reduce the block noise would be to increase the bitrate but, as you say, your player is limited to 2520kbps.
I have a few CVDs created from VHS tapes which I too intend to convert to DVD-R when I can afford a burner.
I captured as DV AVI then converted to MPG2 at 352x576 with a bitrate of 4000kbps as this is the max my standalone player can handle on a CD.
I see no block noise at this bitrate and the quality is 100% of the original VHS tape.
DVD can be up to around 9000kbps but I think this would be overkill for 352x576.
I think the optimum bitrate for this resolution is probably between 4000 to 5000 kbps.

[cradix]

If I reencode my 2520 file (currently 425MB) to 5000, can I assume that the approximate file size would be 850MB or so? (Double the bitrate, double the file size?)

-- Matt

[SatStorm]

4.000 KB/s can support much higher resolutions than 352 X 576/480! Just imagine that most of the DVB transmissions are about 544 X 576 @ 3550kb/s!

The best bitrate (in the book) for CVD is 2300kb/s, but the encoders we use are not that good (even CCE...), so you need more bitrate for good picture. 2520 kb/s still ain't enough (unfortunatelly) if you use TMPGenc and the source is a bad VHS. If you use CCE you eliminate a bit the noise, but still isn't "block - free" in action/moving scenes.
Based on my tests and what I see in DVB transmissions, I could say straight that the best choice (with today's technology) is about 3100kb/s for a resolution like 352 X 576/480. But this is far away CVD, so we talking for xCVD here.

If you live in Europe and recieve Hotbird satellite, then you can easily see how 352 X 576 is capable to show on your screen, if you have the pro hardware. There is a full digital Italian music channel, with the name "102.5 Hit channel" (Freq: 11623V, S.R.: 27.500, F.E.C.: 3/4). This channel transmits 352 X 576 @ 3100kb/s and looks amazing! No blocks, perfect picture, amazing sharpness! They spent a lot of ???? in hardware so it is the perfect example for this! I never succeed that quality in any of my encodings!

For 1/2 D1 DVD (a format we gonna play a lot in the VERY near future), my best settings are 1900 min - 3100 average- 4400 max.
CVD as you see is 600kb/s less average than this, so don't expect perfection....

[vitualis]

1) Exactly how much data can a DVD hold? 4.7GB stands out in my mind, but I'm not sure. Is it like a CD, where if the CD holds 700MB, you could put an MPG about that big on it?

Real GB --> 4.37 GB.

I don't know much about authoring DVDs but all the DVDs I've seen have the video (VOB files) chopped up into 1 GB segments. I would presume that your DVD authoring program would do all this.

2) Can the human ear really tell the difference between 44.1kHz audio and 48k? Will resampling between the two ever *not* be a good idea (i.e. 48k to 41k is good, but 41k to 48k is not)?

Yes, you can probably hear the difference (well, at least some people can). Although you probably will not be able to tell the difference in the highest frequencies, a 48 kHz sample audio does more than just that. I don't really know how to describe it technically, but 48 kHz audio also has greater "temporal precision". Any sample of audio can only come 0.023ms after the last one at 44.1 kHz. 48 kHz audio is slight more accurate -- 0.021ms. Could the average person pick the difference? Perhaps.

Although we definitely won't be able to tell the difference in terms of monaural audio, this may make a difference for stereo sound (in terms of the comparison between the left and right ear). For instance, we can determine where a source of audio is coming from left or right by minor timing differences between the audio reaching the left vs. right ear. More impressively, we can tell whether audio is coming from above or below us by the tiny reflections of sound in our outer ear.

However, will you hear the differences between resampling the audio between 44.1 kHz and 48 kHz?

48 --> 44.1 may be.
44.1 --> 48 most probably not.

Obviously, audio will not improve in quality by upsampling.

4.a) Off general topic: Why is it an issue with CD's as to how fast you burn? I, myself, experienced this just the other day burning at 10x. Toward the end of the video, it got worse and worse (skipping, artifacts, etc.)... not so bad at 4x burn.

This is due to the fact that many DVD drives (on older players especially) were not actually designed to play CD-R media. It is a reader media compatibility issue rather than a burn speed issue. As long as your drive and media are okay, you can definitely burn at the max speed and be assured that your data is burnt with the same integrity as the minimum speed.

5) Is the AVSEQ*.MPG on my CVD in the MPEG2 folder an EXACT copy of the one originally on my hard drive before I dragged it into Nero?

No. Although the MPEG hasn't been re-encoded or anything radical like that, the structure of the "file" may be different to the original. For instance, Windows will have automatically appended a RIFF header to the file when you read the disc.

Regards.

[cradix]

As long as your drive and media are okay, you can definitely burn at the max speed and be assured that your data is burnt with the same integrity as the minimum speed.

Just the other day I burned a CD-RW at 10x. When played, the further along in the video, the worse the picture looked (lots of noise). It even got so bad it started skipping! I re-burned the exact same MPG using the exact same parameters in Nero only burning this time at 4x. The quality was MUCH better, although there were still some artifacts present that did not show up on the MPG itself. Can you explain why this was?

Although the MPEG hasn't been re-encoded or anything radical like that, the structure of the "file" may be different to the original.

Therefore, I can not simply copy the AVSEQ*.MPG off the CVD and start reencoding it? The "padding" would get in the way, right? So how would I reencode the file if I no longer had the source on my HDD--just the burned CVD?

Thanks for your wonderful input into all my questions! Keep up the good work. :P hehe

--Matt

[Faceman101]

Whenever I download Divx movies and want to watch them on the TV, I encode them with CVD specs (-44.1). CVD is almost = to 1/2 D1 DVD. 352x480 is a vaild DVD spec, you just need 48 for the audio. Also you can use 2500-3000 bitrate and will not notice a difference if you use 3500-7000. 2500-3000 is just fine for 352x480. I've done at least 10 DVD-Rs this way with 2 movies on them.

EDIT: I use CBR

[vitualis]

As long as your drive and media are okay, you can definitely burn at the max speed and be assured that your data is burnt with the same integrity as the minimum speed.

Just the other day I burned a CD-RW at 10x. When played, the further along in the video, the worse the picture looked (lots of noise). It even got so bad it started skipping! I re-burned the exact same MPG using the exact same parameters in Nero only burning this time at 4x. The quality was MUCH better, although there were still some artifacts present that did not show up on the MPG itself. Can you explain why this was?

I believe that I've already explained it in my last post...

This is a media compatibility issue with your DVD player. Your DVD player was undoubtedly not designed to read CD-R/W media and does so only marginally. Minor changes (including media brand and burn speed) can make a difference.

However, this doesn't mean that the disc was written badly. I can almost guarantee that if you compare bit for bit, the two discs will be near identical.

This means, if you get a player that is designed to read CD-R/W media (this will be in the specs and is SEPARATE to S/VCD compatibility), the disc will play just fine.

Therefore, I can not simply copy the AVSEQ*.MPG off the CVD and start reencoding it? The "padding" would get in the way, right? So how would I reencode the file if I no longer had the source on my HDD--just the burned CVD?

It "may" get in the way and I think that you should presume it will to prevent any hassles.

My suggestion is to use either:
1. CDXA2MPEG (a tool in the VCDImager suite of proggies -- you can use VCDImager Tools GUI or VCDEasy as a GUI to this command line tool) -- this will remove the riff header and convert it back to a standard MPEG file.

2. Extract a CUE/BIN image of your original VCD or SVCD (or CVD) disc and use VCDXRIP (another tool in the VCDImager suite of proggies) on it to extract everything. This is a little bit more foolproof if there are problems with the readability of your disc.

http://www.vcdimager.org/guides/vcdimager_tools_gui.html

Regards.

[cradix]

I believe that I've already explained it in my last post...

This is a media compatibility issue with your DVD player. Your DVD player was undoubtedly not designed to read CD-R/W media and does so only marginally. Minor changes (including media brand and burn speed) can make a difference.

Yes, and I apologize. It was just confusing to me because when I did see major artifacts (even minor ones) and rewound afterwards, I'd see them again in the exact same place. I guess I figured that wouldn't happen. Also, wouldn't I see the same amount of artifacts no matter what speed the disc was burned? Don't worry about answering... I was just explaining my confusion and, thus, my reason for asking a question you apparently already answered.

http://www.vcdimager.org/guides/vcdimager_tools_gui.html

Thanks so much for the link! -- Matt