Encoding straight from the .VOB File

[KingSeti]

How is everyone doin? First let me say that I tried a search for this and had no luck so I figured I would post for all to read and give some input.

I have been creatin vcd and svcd from downloaded movies and tv episodes for the last 9 months and I finally got a dvd-rom the other night and ripped a trial movie on to the hard drive, loaded into dvd2avi and got the framerate (29.97) then opened it into TmpgEnc 2.53 Plus and encoded.

Encode went fine, just about 4 hrs to encode, but the problem is that the audio was out of synch. I then gave 23.976 (internally 29.97) a try and still the same problem. Oh and the vob file plays fine in wmp (old version on XP Pro, think it is 6.4). The template I am using is one of Kwags, the half dvd template, just changed the framerate's.

So my question is has anyone tried encoding directly from the vob file and had any success and if so can you pass along some settings for NTSC. Also can anyone give some advice for settings under the advanced tab (I am a little lost there), I have set at Non interlace, Field B, 4:3, and Full Screen. Sorry for the long post and I hope I get some replies!

Thanx in advance!

[sdispun]

"has anyone tried encoding directly from the vob"
yup.. "Flask", 80min or less set to 1 vob, never had lipsync issue, no pulldown problems. Just stick with 352x240, 29.97fps CBR, 44Khz, get the bitrate from "bitrate calc", burn @ low speed.

DVD2AVI for DeInterlace info..
TMPGEnc for cut/joint..
last time I use these 2 proggy was.. Oh! I for got.

[wulf109]

Yes you can encode from the vob file. Some disagree with me on this point.

[adam]

No one disagree's with you there wulf, of course you can encode straight from the vob but its not necessary to go through all that trouble and if anything it will probably just introduce more problems. Its not that its not possible, its that its not smart. Frameserving through dvd2avi is faster and easier than demuxing and encoding the vob directly in TMPGenc and for ntsc dvds it preserves the progressive source in a way that NO other program can do. This results in significantly better quality than what either TMPGenc or flask can do.

sdispun: If your using flask then you are not encoding straight from the vobs, you are frameserving through flask. There is nothing wrong with this method, though you could achieve better results with dvd2avi using forced film.

KingSeti your using a non-standard template so it may just be that your dvd player can't handle it. If this is your first attempt at encoding you should use compliant settings. Try the default SVCD templates first.

No offense but if you don't know what those settings are for in the advanced tab than you obviously haven't read the guides thouroughly. If you are not using forced film in dvd2avi and your source is an nstc dvd (I'm assuming you live in the US.) than you will have an interlaced source. Setting the source to non-interlace when its not can certainly cause problems.

Dvd2avi is known to have issues with audio and it is best to not use it for this. Simply set the audio to demux instead of decode and use something like besweet instead (gui which combines all the best software for downmixing, downsampling, and encoding to mp2.) Follow the audio guides at www.doom9.net to do this, its extremely simple.

If you want to use the ntscfilm framerate of 23.976fps you need to make sure that your source is using this framerate.

Load your vobs in dvd2avi and preview them. Let it get past the credits and if it says %95 or higher film than your movie is progressive and uses RFF/TFF flags to playback the movie at 29.97fps. Most ntsc dvd are like this. Set forced film on and encode in 23.976fps in TMPGenc and enable the 3:2 pulldown, or just load any svcd ntscfilm template. This method greatly increases quality since you now have %20 less frames to encode.

If dvd2avi does not report %95 or higher film than you need to turn off forced film and encode in 29.97fps or load an ntsc svcd template. If you encode directly from the vobs this is the only method available, short of doing a very time consuming inverse telecine that may not even work. Encoding in 29.97fps is an incredible waste of bitrate and results in a noticable decrease in quality. If possible you should always encode in ntscfilm. This is just one reason why encoding straight from the vobs is a bad idea.

You also did not mention how you are testing the sync on these rips. If your using a software dvd player the desync could simply be caused by your mpeg2 codec. This is an extremely common problem. To truly test sync you should be testing these on your standalone dvd player.

Also TMPGenc does not add SVCD scan offsets, which almost all dvd player use to maintain sync. Its best to encode the audio and video separately and multiplex in the end, preferably using bbmpeg. If you follow the guides you should already be doing this process.

[sdispun]

Adam, "If your using flask then you are not encoding straight from the vobs, you are frameserving through flask" you mentioned..

Flask to my understanding, it just a shell to BBmpeg which does all those. For 6 months I've been using DVD2AVI with TMPGEnc, result was more than 10 ripped I have to get around problems, as we all encounter one time or another.. lipsync, pulldown, jurk, stop, total more than 50CDs wasted.

So far, 3 months into Flask with all type of DVD source, I have 0(zero). So, from my almost 1 years "DVD backup", I'm not try to fool myself thinking that VCD or SVCD is as good as DVD. The fact of the matter is, the "backup" is just for rerun, and mostly a few times after that, thay all like everything else on the shelf.. collect dust.

So, that bring us to quality.. as we know, VCD is not the only choice we have. SVCD assume better, XSVCD is a bit more, to my judgement between time spend, quality, and outcome.. for DVD I'm still choose to encode to VCD with max bitrate possible, for home movie? VCD @ 2.30Mbs for back it up but tape still a keeper anyway. SVCD not good enough? if you were to ask.. NOP, at least not at 2.40Mbs, any rate more than that, 15mins movie per CD might as well watch from orig tape. How about DVD? unless you can guaranteed that one of the 4 formats will survive, I'm there. Other that that, I'm not about to spend US$399 for something that will be an 8 tracks or beta tape a few years from now.

Just my 2 cents.

[adam]

KingSeti after re-reading your post it seems you are probably using mpeg1 instead of mpeg2. If this is the case than in my prior post just substitute (x)vcd instead of SVCD. Also ignore the part about the 3:2 pulldown since this doesn't apply to mpeg1.

Not all dvd players do a good job of playing back ntscfilm vcds, though most do. You may want to first test your VCDS at 29.97fps to find out where you're going wrong, but definitely try 23.976fps VCDS once you have perfected your encoding/authoring procedure. If your dvd player supports it you will see a big increase in quality.

[adam]

sdispun flask is a frameserver. It can frameserve to just about any encoder that can be used as a plugin not just bbmpeg. If you find flask easier than go for it, I simply noted a particular funciton of dvd2avi that flask cannot do and this function, forced film, significantly increases quality. Also bbmpeg is a ridiculouly slow encoder, though still good quality. Using dvd2avi and TMPGenc you would get better results and faster encoding times. I can assure you that if used properly dvd2avi does not result in playback problems. If you are attempting to find problems in your method you should use cdrw's. That way you do not waste cdrs.

I'm not sure how the maximum achievable quality of any cdr formatted media standard is relavant to this thread. Obviously no one is actually expecting to highly compress their source and still achieve the same level of quality. The point is to get the best level of quality within the constraints we have to work with regardless of what format we are using. Whether you are making a VCD, SVCD, or DVD, by encoding in ntscfilm you get a %20 boost in bitrate which can and often will result in significant quality increases.

Yes VCD and SVCD and any nonstandard version of the two do have a maximum level of attainable quality. but my point is that if you are encoding in ntsc than you have not yet reached that maximum level of quality. Just because it will never look as good as the source dvd doesnt mean you can't still try to make it look better. After all using forced film in dvd2avi and encoding in ntscfilm actually DECREASES encoding time and it actually ELLIMINATES more encoding problems, but only if you use it correctly.

[sdispun]

Adam, as I said.. it's just my 2 cents.
As to "encoding in ntscfilm you get a %20 boost in bitrate which can and often will result in significant quality increases" I'm with you on this one, but to my comparison from "spykid" which required forcefilm, TMPGEnc Vs. Falsk final result on 60" big screen, and 36" sony, honestly they look the same.

My reply is non other than my experience, nothing meant to offense anyone, and if it sounds like one, please except my apologies. BTW, CD-RW I've used until I thought I've found a perfect way, so test was never an option until the disappointed result shown.

"Also bbmpeg is a ridiculouly slow encoder, though still good quality" at least "good quality" from BBmpeg you and I agreed upon.

[KingSeti]

First of all let me thank all of those who have replied to my post.

Adam, let me start by saying that the kwag template is mpeg2 and I have done downloaded movies with this template and it play in my Phillips DVD711. Actually, svcd plays better then vcd - even standard vcd templates in tmpgenc dont work! I have done all kinds of different settings and both framerates work, but only in mpeg 2. I know that is hard to believe but trust me, as I have done many tests, as long as it is 480 480 mpeg 2 either framerate works, just get audio sync issues!

Let me ask about some settings in SmartRipper, under stream processing I uncheck all the languages except the first english, could this have anything to do with the sync issue? Like I said I am new to ripping and I have printed out both Sefy and Pinnoy guide and am following Sef's now on my other computer, just re-ripped with Sefy settings and about to convert to d2v file.

I am about to print all your responses out and give it a try! Hope I can get this to work because doing downloaded movies is just too much of a pain in the ass!

Thanx for the information from all of you! Will post if I make good on my rip!

[adam]

I don't think the stream proccessing in smartripper is causing this.

Like I said there could be a number of things causing the desync. Don't use dvd2avi for audio, don't use TMPGenc for multiplexing, and don't use forced film unless its applicable.

[wulf109]

The direct encode method works for me. You can test it on the first vob in any DVD rip you have on your HD.
Open Tmpeg and open Mpeg Tools,it opens at Simple Remux,stay in Simple Remux. Click the browse button in the video input box and navigate to the first vob in a rip,it must be the first vob. Tmpeg will open the vob in the video and audio input boxes and load an mpg in the output box,click run. It will take slightly longer to create the mpg than project file,but we're talking 10 minutes instead of 6 minutes. Close Mpeg Tools and load the mpg you just created in Tmpeg. Select what ever template you nomally use and encode it.
It takes no longer to from the mpg than it does to encode from the d2v. Burn it,aCDR costs 30 cents. What on on your DVD player. If you see an impovement fine,if not you've wasred 4 minutes and 30 cents.
Don't do it because I'm telling you to and don't not do it because Adam says it won't work. You all adults capable of making you own decisions.
And yes it does use more HD space for temporarily.

[adam]

The extra time I was referring to is during the demultiplexing process and on my system it takes significantly longer than creating a project file in dvd2avi.

Wulf you don't listen very well. I never said it wont work, in fact I said that it will work but thats its not a very smart method to use and I already explained why. Just because something works doesnt mean its working well. Your missing out on a lot by just loading the vobs and your actually making things much harder on yourself and opening yourself up to a number of other potential problems. If you want to do that then that is fine but don't give this out as advice as if its going to help someone because its not. Enough with this skipping the frameserving process nonsense. If you have nothing meaningful to say than don't say anything at all. Its difficult enough for a newbie to get a working encode without having to wade through completely FALSE and uninformed advice.

[sdispun]

One last shot to your problems if I may..
try to round the bitrate down to "00", Ex: 1200, 1500, 2300.. More than one occasion if I were to use some odds number as bitrate calc said, I got lipsync too (Only if I hit the "next chapter"), continue playing from start to end no problems.

BTW, Adam, thank you for realized me of Flask is a frameserver.
Best regards,

[KingSeti]

Well once again thanks to everyone for their responses but I have another question, you all keep mentioning "vob's". I only have one vob file, that is why I asked about settings in Smartripper. I go to stream processing and deselect all the other languages and under settings I select every vob file under KEY, I select max file size under FILE and I get only one final vob file.

What I have done was went through Sef's guide on dvd2avi and my encode has 59 minutes left. If this doesn't work I will rerip with all vob's instead of one max file (under Settings > File - Splitting) and follow Adam's advice and head here:

"Dvd2avi is known to have issues with audio and it is best to not use it for this. Simply set the audio to demux instead of decode and use something like besweet instead (gui which combines all the best software for downmixing, downsampling, and encoding to mp2.) Follow the audio guides at www.doom9.net to do this, its extremely simple."

Let you all know in less than an hour!

[adam]

On typical dvds the vobs containing the movie are stored in .99 gig files, some are 1 gig but these are rare. When you rip you can keep them at their original filesizes, and frameserve them all to the encoder at the same time, or you can rip them as one large file. It really doesnt matter which way you do it.

[KingSeti]

Well let me start by saying SUCCESS!

Thanks to all for the responses and I have just one more slight problem. The template I ended up using was standard svcd ntsc and while watching movie on tv, 32" Phillips, there is jittering around a person when they walk, other than that, pure clarity! Anyone know if that is due to settings in the advanced tab or not? I read guides such as TmpgEnc Explained and I am sorry but I just dont understand the whole interlace and non-interlace. I used the wizard when I loaded d2v and wav and I actually didn't pay any attention to settings as I just started the encode.

If anyone could give me a little more help I would appreciate as I am ready to start RIPPIN! :P

Adam, I also printed out a guide on doom9 for future reference, thanks

Thanks to all on this site!

[yolp3668]

See if anyone will agree with me. I used Smart Ripper to rip the DVD. It took me 36 minutes to do. I then used Backup DVD to output to mpeg. I then I burned it straight to a CD-R and guess What it worked in my VCD Player.. The only thing that took the longest was taking the .vob files and converting them to .mpeg that took about 2 hours.
If anyone has a better idea about how to get one on a CD-R Well i would like some help please.. Thanks

[kwag]

The best program to work VOB's directly, even better that DVD2AVI, is MPEG Mediator. The newest version does IVTC. Read some comments here: http://www.kvcd.net/forum/viewforum.php?f=19

I've had nothing but perfect results so far with the latest version (1.4). Also, it does AC3 to WAV conversion with surround downmix WAY faster than headac3he's AC3->WAV or BeSweet's AC3->WAV.
I now use headac3he to encode the WAV to mp2 only.

Here's the link to Mediator's site: http://www.mpeg-mediator.com

-kwag

[vcdwatcher]

I use the method discussed above and in Doom9 to convert VOBs to VCD, that is, DVD2AVI, BeSweet GUI, TMPGEnc, and then multiplex and split for 2 CDs in bbMPEG. After the split in bbMPEG before I burn it I want to add a few seconds of blank video to the end of the first mpg split and the beginning of the second mpg split.

What is the best way to make these joins? So far I have been using TMPGEnc's MPEG tools for this. But this thread says that TMPGEnc is not good for multiplexing. Is it good for Joins / Merges? If not, what do you think is the best way for me to join a few seconds of blank video to the 2 mpgs produced by bbMPEG.

[adam]

That mpeg Mediator looks like it might turn into a good program but its hardly a replacement for dvd2avi, at least right now. I don't know about you but I'd much rather simply bypass the RFF/TFF flags and preserve the progressive 23.976fps encoded video, which literally takes no additional time and will always work correctly on a pure film source (%99 of all ntsc dvds) rather than perform an IVTC which can take hours and might not even work correctly. There's no sense in telecining something just so you can go back and inverse that process. Its much better to just not telecine it in the first place and that is dvd2avi's real strength.

If used correctly dvd2avi causes no problems whatsoever, though its best to only use it for processing video, not audio. I'd have a hard time recommending any other frameserver over dvd2avi.

[kwag]

Now you bring up a question in my mind, if Mediator is skipping the frames or actually doing IVTC. Seems to me the most logical thing ( from a programmers perspective ) would be to process the real FILM 24fps by ignoring the repeated frames. I'll have to check the source and see exactly how it's being done. Maybe even though the "Inverse Telecine" option is selected, it's just bypassing the frames. I'll check on that. I've already encoded four movies with the "Inverse Telecine" selected, and extracted the audio with "Export WAV" in Mediator after processing the video stream, and the conversion from this WAV to MP2 with headac3he is just awesome. The dolby surround downmix information is excelent, and the audio/video in perfect sync when muxed with BBMpeg. So for AC3 to WAV, I think this program just beats all others right now. Specially the extraction speed is very good. So far, no issues with the video either.

-kwag

[adam]

Well i looked at the guy's webpage... Seems to me if someone is smart enough to write an IVTC program then they are smart enough to label it correctly. Anyhow it should be very easy to determine whether it is actually performing an IVTC or not. Take any dvd stored as film and setup two encodes, one with IVTC on and one with it off and note the time it will take to encode. If mpeg mediator simply bypasses the pulldown flags then the encoding time with "IVTC" on will be less because there are less frames to analyze. If it is actually performing an IVTC the encoding time will be much longer since IVTC'ing takes so long to perform.

[kwag]

I asked Arno Hornberger, the developer of Mediator, how the "Inverse Telecine" in his program works. Here is his answer ( with his permission to post ) :

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MPEG Mediator does *not* actually do a telecining before it "inverse telecines" a movie, it just follows the rff-flag of the frames and treats the video as 23.97 Hz (if possible). It is a bit more complicated and strongly connected to the syncing mechanisms in MPEG Mediator. But trust me: I have thought about the syncing algorithm (and IVTC) *very* long and I consider it finished and absolutely reliable (also if IVTC is done and the telecining-pattern changes or timestamps are not continuous or have jitter). So nobody should have to worry that there would be some unnecessary overhead when using IVTC, there simply is no (well, almost. I did not look at every cpu cycle, though . Isn't the speed of MPEG Mediator evidence enough?

Concerning why I entitled this option "Inverse Telecine": It is detected if telecining was done in the stream (based on the rff-flag). If that's the case it is left to the user to ignore the rff flag or not. So what other name would be better for this option than "Inverse Telecine"? "Force film" would perhaps also be possible, but because telecining is actually removed with this option I consider "Inverse Telecine" best.

Some other thing: There are some very bad mastered telecined streams out there (perhaps less than 1%) that don't use the rff-flag in the mpeg-2 stream for telecining which means there are actually 29.97 fps *coded* in the stream. This is simply a waste of bitrate and it is very difficult to automatically detect the telecining pattern for such streams. Such ugly streams cannot be inverse telecined with MPEG Mediator.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
End of comment.

-kwag

[adam]

Well that's great, we finally have a competitor for dvd2avi. I still don't understand his naming it IVTC though, that seems pretty illogical since when used neither a telecine nor an IVTC is ever actually performed. I don't see how something can be IVTC'ed if it was never telecined in the first place. Anyway, I guess its nothing more than semantics but I for one was confused enough to write the program off at first glance because of this.

Good find though. I'll have to look into it.