Divx NTSC film to PAL VCD?

[ceepan]

I have been downloading stuff from alt.binaries.multimedia. I decided that I wanted to write them to VCD so I could watch them on my DVD player. The original source is NTSC film Divx avi format. I have followed the guide and extracted the audio to .avi using VirtuaDub and then created an MPEG with TMPGEnc. I have tried using the NTSC film template. I then used Nero 5.5.*.* (not latest version but pretty new) to burn the VCD in PAL format as I am in the UK. I put a menu on it.

When I tried playing it on my DVD player (Limit DVD-9090) the a/v sync was out. At first I thought that this was a TV format problem. However I noticed that if I fast forward or rewind the VCD for a couple of seconds and then play it again the sync is a lot better, but still not perfect. Is this a problem with the way I am writing the VCD (i.e. TV standard problem), or is it the DVD Player. I have had other VCD's (not made by me) and the a/v sync was fine.

Thanks
Paul

[bugster]

to convert from NTSC to Pal correctly you can try following this guide:

http://forum.vcdhelp.com/userguides/78178.php

but if you are in the UK chances are that your DVD player/TV will play NTSC format quite happily, most stuff sold in the last few years here is multi format aware. Try it and you might be lucky!

[ceepan]

When I play the MPEG on my PC the a/v sync is fine. That is why I was wondering about the TV format.

Paul

[KingJohn]

When I play the MPEG on my PC the a/v sync is fine. That is why I was wondering about the TV format.

Paul

NTSC film template

Why not try a PAL VCD template

[ceepan]

I have tried that too but got the same problem. I have created an MPEG using the NTSC film template. Would it be best if I created another MPEG in TMPGenc using the PAL template and using my recently created MPEG as opposed to the .avi. I have created such an MPEG which again looks OK on the PC but I haven't yet written it to CD.

Paul

[bugster]

Create your mpeg in TmpGenc using the NTSC film template. Set Nero to NTSC and burn. See what happens.

As you are in the UK there is a pretty high chance that your DVD player and TV will handle NTSC format without any problems. Try it.

[mh2360]

There is a way to convert 23.967 fps Divx files to 25 fps... Are you sitting comfortably?, here goes...

Step 1: Rip the audio...

Rip the audio from your Divx file... this may be either in MPEG format or AC3, you can identify the type of audio using Virtualdub (File menu/File info).. If the audio is AC3 this is will appear as unknown with 2-5 channels...

Select Audio/Direct stream copy (if not already selected), then select File/save WAV, this will save either an AC3 file or compressed mp2/3 audio...

Step 2: Convert the audio...

If you saved an AC3 file then you need a program called Headac3e to convert this to a WAV file, then use another program - Besweet to convert the WAV file from 23.976 fps to 25 fps...(save as WAV)

If you saved a MPG file then use Besweet to convert the MPG from 23.976 fps to 25 fps (save as WAV)

either way you should now have a large 25fps WAV file.

Step 3: Combine converted audio and convert the video...

Load up Virtualdub, and then load up your Divx file. Click Video/Frame Rate and change to 25 fps, then make sure Video/Direct Stream Copy is selected, then click Audio/WAV Audio and select the WAV file you just made.

You can then check that everything is in sync by playing the movie.

If you plan to convert the movie to another format (S/VCD), select File/Save as AVI. This will save the movie as a 25 fps divx file with uncompressed audio (very large!, but doesnt take long).

If you want to save the movie then click Audio/Full Processing mode and then Audio/compression and select mp3 or whatever (you might need a codec, the Radium mp3 codec works well with Vitualdub). Click File/Save as AVI, this will then save a 25fps Divx file with MP3 audio (smaller but takes time)...

Phew... If anyone wants to make a guide feel free.....

[KingJohn]

I have tried that too but got the same problem. I have created an MPEG using the NTSC film template. Would it be best if I created another MPEG in TMPGenc using the PAL template and using my recently created MPEG as opposed to the .avi. I have created such an MPEG which again looks OK on the PC but I haven't yet written it to CD.

Paul

If your not sure what your player can do, then you need to start with a fully compliant VCD template NOT a film. You can re-process your Mpeg again if you wish or use the AVI

As already mentioned you can save out the Audio, If Vdub gave you an error when you loaded the AVI, then chances are its an AC3. If there was no error, just save out the audio like this;

Audio > Full processing mode
Audio > Conversion > 44.1Khz
SAVE WAV

Also with regard to NTSC, most DVD players will play NTSC "BUT THE TV's DON'T" a DVD player will play NTSC in NTSC out, so unless you have a TV that takes NTSC, it wont work, and DVD players don't convert from one to the other

Finally you need a disk that is compatible with your DVD player, start with Maxell or TDK CDR, and take it from there.

[offline]

and DVD players don't convert from one to the other

This is incorrect. The majority of players sold outside the North Amercian market will pay NTSC as PAL or PAL as NTSC.

[KingJohn]

and DVD players don't convert from one to the other

This is incorrect. The majority of players sold outside the North Amercian market will pay NTSC as PAL or PAL as NTSC.

No they dont.

Actually I just looked up 50 of the top names, and quite a few of them don't convert NTSC to PAL, and quite a few of them give PAL 60 out (If your TV is PAL 50) then that's no use either.

There is only one way to find out

[bugster]

KingJohn, you are right that many european players output NSTC as Pal60, so it really comes down to the capability of your TV set.

However, certainly in the UK and I believe in most of Europe, unless you are very unlucky or have a really old TV (more than 10 years old) there is a very good chance that not only will it handle PAL 60 with ease but it will also handle NTSC with no problems too.

[KingJohn]

Yep, Mine is 100Hz But the point is, unless you start with the basics, there is no way of knowing what you did wrong, was because of these things.

Once the basic VCD is made and you can see it playing, you now have a standard to which you can work from, and something to fall back to if things go wrong.

If someone who has never made a VCD, downloaded a AVI from "Kazaa" and burned it to a SVCD using Nero set at NTSC for a country that use PAL on a unbranded CD-R 8)

Well... It might work on my Player But not on many others

[banjazzer]

For best results match the framerate of your source to the template you use. Most DVD players in the UK will play all formats. Sometimes this is automatic, other times you need to switch between PAL and NTSC.

[KingJohn]

[banjazzer]

Is that meant to be a comment - or have you been drinking?

[KingJohn]

After all that was said about NTSC/PAL players, you come back with the same post.

Most DVD players in the UK will play all formats. Sometimes this is automatic, other times you need to switch between PAL and NTSC

[banjazzer]

I am not sure what you mean by this. I am not talking about playing PAL as NTSC or NTSC as PAL. I am stating that the majority of UK players will accept either format. I am also saying that provided this is so, it is a bad thing to convert PAL to NTSC or NTSC to PAL, the reason being that it generally leads to a jerky result. I know some people do it, but IMO it should only be as a last resort. Some people will accept the degradation - others won't.

[adam]

EDIT: I think I misunderstood KingJohn's original post about using the regualr ntsc template and not ntscfilm. Nevertheless, I'll leave the post as is since I think its still decent advice.

If your goal is to convert ntscfilm to pal then you should definitely NOT convert to ntsc first, that makes no sense at all.

Film originates at 24fps. It is slowed down by %.03 to convert to ntscfilm and it is sped up by %4 to convert it to pal. All you need to do to convert ntscfilm to pal, in respect to fps, is to speed it up by %4.03 during encoding. You can simply do this by setting your output fps to 25fps and make sure and encode audio and video together. Of course with divx as a source its always a good idea to decompress the avi audio to wav first in virtual dub so if you choose to convert audio and video separately than follow mh2360's advice, it will work.

Converting to ntsc first is a very bad idea. This duplicates fields, adding new frames to the movie that were not present before. To then convert ntsc to pal would almost certainly cause sync problems unless you removed these fields that never should have been added in the first place. Actually if your source is ntsc to begin with then the preferable way to convert to pal would be to first convert to ntscfilm by doing an inverse telecine.

Almost all pal tv's are actually multiscan televisions. They display both pal and ntsc signals perfectly fine.

Kingjohn actually almost all dvd players sold in pal countries DO convert ntsc to pal. The reason for this is because you don't actually have to convert anything, you can simply modify the ntsc signal and output pal 60 like you say, but this WILL do you good because almost every pal tv in existence will play it just fine. If your ntsc encoded movie does not play on your pal tv through a pal dvd player than you are definitely in the minority.

Now converting pal to ntsc through hardware is a whole other matter since it must be converted, not modified. This is why many players cannot do it, and why even the ones that can often do a poor job of it.

[banjazzer]

Once again I suspect we may all end up talking about different things here. 8) The advice I often see is to change from PAL to NTSC or vice versa by choosing the appropriate template (TMPGEnc), thus effectively changing the framerate. Whenever you do this the source and target still have the exact same length in time. With PAL->NTSC extra frames are added. NTSC->PAL frames are deleted. It is not possible to create unique and new frames when adding, so some are duplicated. In the other direction, some are lost. Both conversions result in a jerky output. If an NTSC(film) source is run through a PAL template(or vice versa), the exact same process occurs, except because the framerates are much closer, the resulting jerkiness is much less noticeable - but it is still there.

If anyone is sceptical of this, take a small section of DivX with lots of movement in it, and note the length in time of the sample. Change it to one of the other formats and check the number of frames, overall length and playing quality.

[mh2360]

Use my method (my previous post), I use this when I convert from Divx to SVCD... There is absolutely NO sync problems, and perfecly smooth movement. You are effectivly converting the Divx from 23.976 NTSC Film to 25 fps PAL. Use the PAL templates in Tmpgenc for conversion...

[banjazzer]

What exactly is a 25fps wav file? Wav files don't have frames.

If you convert 23.976fps video to 25fps without speeding up the video (ie shortening it temporally) you do so by adding frames. This means some of the frames are duplicated, and the result is not as smooth, whether you as an individual notice it or not.

[banjazzer]

As an addendum, this would seem to be a simpler way than suggested in the guide, which would also avoid any resultant jerkiness:

Save off the uncompressed wav, then use VirtualDub to save off the avi and change the framerate from 23,976 to 25fps using direct stream copy. This will shorten the movie slightly. Note the new time and shrink the wav file to fit the avi using Soundforge or Cooledit. Then use a PAL template in TMPGenc. The movie will have speeded up slightly, but not so much as to be noticable. Any speedup will be far less noticeable (to me anyway) than the duplication of frames by using a PAL template on an NTSC source.

[mh2360]

Hmm i've tried shrinking the WAV file with cool-edit, didnt work and took A-G-E-S...

[banjazzer]

I have only used Soundforge to stretch or shrink a wav. However, I would expect it to be quite a lengthy process!

[KingJohn]

Still trying to get to the bottom of this, exactly what happens when you try to save out the WAV in Vdub uncompressed at 44.1Khz ? What does it say ?

Audio > full processing mode
Audio > conversion > 44.1Khz (No other change)
SAVE WAV

What does Vdub 4.10 say ?

Because it says nothing on my machine, and saves it out perfect ?????

Does anyone have a short AVI with AC3 audio, I've not downloaded any lately, so cannot experiment.

[mh2360]

Version 1.4.10

You get an Error, something about the "Audio compression is not compatable with the output format".....

[banjazzer]

This isn't anything to do with NTSC(film) to PAL, though. It's a question of whether VirtualDub will recognise ac3.

[KingJohn]

We moved on since then

[banjazzer]

No-one told me. 8)