Need Rec's: Audio Recorder (Zoom?) and Well Matched Lav Mic (Outdoor Use).

[Robes]

Hello All-
(Newbie Here)

I'm researching for a good cost effective audio system for my outdoor use.
Background Use. This will be outdoor video to supplement my photography and in the style of "Survivor Man- Les Stroud". Just me and my dog in the Northern Rockies. I need an external recorder for use in place of my GoPro audio, probably add another video recorder next year (I have no idea about what type, certainly low or mid range price or used).

I will mainly use as audio for recording some of my dialog, the dog, wildlife & background sounds. I want to record night time ambient sounds, winds, rain, storms and the sound of billions of mosquitos swarming around one. There will not be allot of talk, I’m not describing processes but short burbs about what’s going on, where I am, what your looking at. Possibly some minimal 2 on 2 dialogue in the future. But for now a 1 man band.
My intent is that the video serves as the back drop for the still pictures within it, but it will give the broad picture of the when/where/how/in between, behind the scene fill in, with some voice direction and background outdoor sounds.

This is all for personal use, this is not any paid project. If the sound is poor I’ll just try something different next time.

I want better then camera sound yet versatile as mentioned. I have to work with what I have and right now, I have a Hero 3+ Black Gopro for video capture. My gear is really Nikon, pro level for photography, video is lagging far behind. I love editing in FCPX & that what drives me to get video.

I am going on the 2nd week of researching all the possibilities available, I just don’t seem to get my questions answered.

I believe I need to go with a Zoom H1, H2N, or H4N recorder because I want the USB Mic feature for use in voice overs in FCPX. I have not found any other brands that have this feature, if you know of any please let me know. I’m concerned about the preamps of the Zoom but to have the USB mic feature I’m willing to settle for it. I also believe the H4N has better quality preamps over the H2N but not for sure. I’ve heard the H2N is superior in recording ambient sounds over the other 2 mentioned, again, not sure.

I don’t believe using the XLR mic connections would do much for my case & I’d worry those connections my make the unit more cumbersome in the field, as well as other reasons.

Next concern would be a compatible condenser Lav mic. It needs to be sensitive enough for the ambient sound recording and hopefully allow minimal hiss/hum noise. I guess it has to allow good levels at minimal gain set on the Zoom- is that correct? I think it needs to be plug-in-power (PIP) not phantom which seems to bring on more conditions eg. XLR/need for more power in the field/possible additional preamps (FetHead) etc. It should also be wired.

So far I have found the Oscar Sound Tech (OST) TL-40 which has lots of great reviews for a very good price ~ $80.00. But I don’t know how compatible it would be with any of the Zooms. There are some specs on it, bottom of this page: http://www.oscarsoundtech.com/services.html but, I don’t know how to interpret them in relation to a Zoom for being a good match.
I read a thread where someone said the TL-40’s sensitivity was -56 dB re 1 V/μBar @ 1kHz nominal and that he would not use anything less then -35 dB re 1 volt/Pascal sensitivity with the H1, for what that is worth. I wish I had some spect that I could look at between the Zoom and mic to know what would be a good working, sensitive match between them.

Anyhow, I have posted these sort of questions on other audio (engineering type forums) and get nothing from them, I believe this equipment is just too far from what they deal with to give any type of usable information other then their enjoyment of tearing you to pieces.

Hope someone has some good recommendations for the Zoom and a good Lav that will give the best sound for it in the environment I’ll be using it.

Robes

[smrpix]

You don't want a lav for ambient sound. You want a short shotgun or omni. The built in mics on the zoom may well serve the purpose. Use a lav to record your voice.

[Cornucopia]

Couple of questions:

1. What is your budget (Actual hard-limit figures)?
2. What is the environment (temperatures, wind speeds, precipitation)? - important re: durability & battery life
3. Are you expecting 2ch/stereo/binaural, or mono?
4. Have you considered just capturing the ambient sound and just doing a VO at home?

Scott

[Robes]

smrpix, yes, that is what I meant to say, I plan to use the stereo of the Zoom recorder for ambient sounds and use the Lav for attaching to myself when needed.

Scott; Budget, the expense of a Zoom up to a H4N. A Lav around $100, maybe more for a best match not requiring a preamp. I also realize I will need extra's eg. windshields,etc but I'm not including any of that here.

I don't bring equipment out into bad weather, it will always be double bagged and packed away. Anything I shoot on the move is during fair weather & quickly packed if rains a coming. I do bring it out when at a base camp during windows of opportunity, & the time when I'll be recording background natural/animal/insect/wind/rain etc sounds. I winter camp often & keep batteries against my body, definitely sub zero at night. I haven't had any problems with my Nikon gear in winter conditions. If it's too cold for any audio devise I can afford it won't come. I've been in winds of 60 knots and better when sailing through the Drake Passage toward the Antarctic Peninsula, the GoPro encased in its waterproof case & had to cut the audio, too loud. I'm just in the Rockies, want to hear the wind through the pines, probably from within the tent.

Mono for the lav, my voice. Thinking 2 channel stereo for sounds/background. I have many options in FCPX but lots to play with. Thinking to capture the stereo from the Zooms mics. Also heard the H2n maybe good for this.

Yes, I have considered doing all VO at home & maybe that is a better idea. I actually hate my voice and would hate to record myself mostly for that reason, yet for some reason feel I must do a little... some what a dilemma. Part of the reason I'm trying to get idea's what to do and difficulty to set a budget. In this scenario, better recorder for ambient sound and just buy a separate USB mic (not use a Zoom as double duty?). Maybe I need to walk away, honestly the more I read and know the less I know what I need or plan to do.

It might be best to consider the VO's only, at least for now. But then, if the consensus was to go with an alternate brand of recorder for better preamps, better recording opportunities, I loose the USB mic. That built in USB mic seems to act as safety net for me, and saving the expense of a decent free standing USB mic.

[Cornucopia]

If you do the Voice track mainly at home, you wouldn't necessarily even need a Lav, just put the Zoom on a stand near your voice/chest (it can be put into M/S -mid/side- mode, where you could take the Mid track to use as an optimal mono source). More important than the physical form factor choice (Lav vs. Handheld) is the pickup pattern, freq. response, inherent self-noise level and THE PLACEMENT. And you could use a raw guide VO track in the field using the zoom (from a distance?) that you later replace with clean, close up recording.

Get the fur Wind Sock/Dead Cat (separately sold accessory, NOT the supplied foam) for the Zoom to help greatly with wind. You won't regret it.

I have a Zoom H4N, so I know it works quite well for most of this stuff. However, it does have somewhat insensitive external mic pre's (and little D.R. wiggle room from a pro audio standpoint), so you wouldn't want to use an external mic that didn't put out enough. You can use a field mixer with its own preamps, but you have to be very careful with level control. I've found the best choices have been either external mikes direct in that have solid output or using the Zoom's own mounted mic setup. I'll soon be upgrading to the H6 or F8, specifically to add more inputs and to overcome those obstacles (more professional).

For external mikes, yes they would ordinarily be more expensive, but Condenser mikes are by and large much better quality. Yes, they DO require 48v phantom power, but that is not a problem anyway with the H4N (it just uses a little bit more battery power). BTW, Electret Condenser mics don't need phantom power, but I don't recommend them anyway. Yes, XLR is a bigger connector. Not that big of an issue in the field unless you're doing surveillance/espionage/gonzo work.

HTH,
Scott

[Robes]

You totally turned me around here for the better. Your suggestions are spot on and exactly what I need to do. Doing "a raw guide VO track in the field using the zoom that you later replace with clean, close up recording." And "doing the voice track at home". Following this path I can worry about any external mic later if I really see a need for it (not sure why I thought I needed it. This is what I need to do first, and likely how I'll keep it.

I assume then, that you think the H4N would be the way to go for my needs? I think having the XLR capability/phantom power etc. allows me more options should I pursue a mic later. I'm sure the unit used as a USB mic will be more then satisfactory, but curious if you have used it for VO or know anyone who has, and if it worked well, sounded O.K.? When using for VO it's best to use in the M/S mode, correct? and using the internal mics of the H4N should work well for recoding the natural sounds too?

More important than the physical form factor choice (Lav vs. Handheld) is the pickup pattern, freq. response, inherent self-noise level and THE PLACEMENT.

In this quote, when you refer to freq. response, & self noise levels, I understand these are important- are these specs satisfactory in the H4N for my purpose?

Many Thanks for your direction and all your suggestions and comments!
Robes

[Cornucopia]

Since I've already had nice condenser mikes prior to even getting the Zoom (classical concert recording), I haven't ever had a need to use the internal mikes for VO.
They are quite reasonable for ambient use. Ymmv, and each user has different ears/priorities, so you should test it yourself in the field before committing.

Scott