Syncing the audio from one video to another video

[amber2403]

Hello everyone,
I'm not sure where this question belongs so I thought I would post here and hope that someone can help. I have two videos of the exact same thing. The only difference is the frame rates and language. I have a video that plays back in Italian and 25 fps. The other video, which is the exact same thing, plays back in English and has a frame rate of 29fps.

I am wanting to take the audio of the English play back and merge it with the video the Italian video (because the video quality is way better). I edit this in Sony Movie Studio 13. However, I'm assuming because of the frame rate difference, there is roughly a 4 minute difference between the audio tracks. Any stretching or shrinking I do to the track completely messes up the audio. And I've tried to convert both videos to the same frame rate, yet that doesn't seem to do anything to the time length of the audio tracks.

My question is, is there any way to merge and sync the English audio to the Italian video without having to splice up the audio and go scene-by-scene, physically lining everything up?

I'm a relative newbie when it comes to all of this so any suggestions or tips will be greatly appreciated! Thanks!

[newpball]

It depends.

Is it a movie?

If it is it is likely sped up from 24 straight to 25 for PAL and slightly slowed down and then telecined to 29.97 for NTSC so you the audio only needs to be time stretched a little bit going from one to the other.

If it is pure video or the engineer butchered the movie, it depends on how it was converted.

[manono]

You might be able to do it. What are the exact lengths of the two to the second? The reason I ask is that it may be due to the PAL/NTSC differences if they're both films. Saying there's a 4 minute difference isn't good enough. And if that's true, the guy that made the 29.97fps one didn't know what he was doing because it should be 23.976fps. So, if it is really due to the PAL speedup from film, converting the audio from a 29.97fps film is exactly the wrong thing to do because, instead of slowing it from 29.97->25 you should be speeding it up from 23.976->25.

And if that's true, it might still not work unless the content is exactly the same - same number of scenes, same opening logos, everything the same.

[newpball]

...a 29.97fps film

No, film is exactly 24 fps not 23.976. It is slowed down to 23.976 to prepare it for NTSC telecine.

[amber2403]

It is not a movie. It's a TV show. One was recorded from TV. I ripped them from VOB files and converted them to .mp4 using VidCoder. I had my VidCoder setting match the source settings. I'm not sure how the other was treated.

The one recorded from TV totals: 44:46:23 (this is the 29fps one).
The second totals: 40:15:20 (this is the 25fps).

One thing I did notice that the one recorded from TV does cut off at the end, leaving about maybe a minute of the episode cut out. The Italian version has the full episode from start to finish + credits.

I found a software called TFM Audio Tool, and after some research indicating that changing the frame rate from NTSC to PAL using the 23.976 to 25 setting might work, I was able to convert the video with that tool to that frame rate. When I loaded that into Movie Studio the time totaled: 42:56:20. And it's definitely a lot better. But still looks to be slightly off, progressively. And there's still that 2:41:0 difference.

[manono]

...a 29.97fps film

No, film is exactly 24 fps not 23.976. It is slowed down to 23.976 to prepare it for NTSC telecine.

I know what film is, thank you. We're not talking about the stuff shown in a movie theater but what's on a DVD or broadcast on television.

We're still not positive, but if it's from a movie and captured from a television broadcast, then it's 23.976fps after IVTC. Which is what I said.

However, with the NTSC version being cut before finish, we still don't know for sure. Now I might ask for samples.

The one recorded from TV totals: 44:46:23 (this is the 29fps one).

And it's missing a minute or so? And the ads have already been removed? It doesn't seem to be purely a PAL/NTSC issue. The two versions might have dfferent content in places. Which will make synching the audio difficult for the experienced and nearly impossible for a novice. Hard to tell. Samples, please.

[newpball]

You are missing the point, a well produced PAL DVD will use a sped up film going from exactly 24 fps to 25 fps not from 23.976fps.

So, if it is really due to the PAL speedup from film, converting the audio from a 29.97fps film is exactly the wrong thing to do because, instead of slowing it from 29.97->25 you should be speeding it up from 23.976->25.

In PAL world there are only integer film rates to worry about!

[amber2403]

The one recorded from TV totals: 44:46:23 (this is the 29fps one).

And it's missing a minute or so? And the ads have already been removed? It doesn't seem to be purely a PAL/NTSC issue. The two versions might have dfferent content in places. Which will make synching the audio difficult for the experienced and nearly impossible for a novice. Hard to tell. Samples, please.

What kind of samples are you looking for? Screenshots? If so, of what?

I think you're right about the content being messed up. I started watching the video through (with the converted 23.976 to 25 fps video audio) and was thinking that it seemed alright. Everything looks in sync, and if it wasn't then I couldn't really tell so it couldn't have been off by much. Then I come to a scene transition where the audio is completely off from the video. This is because it looks like the Italian copy has 2 scenes cut from it where my converted audio has the two scenes included.

And to answer your question about the ads. Yes, both videos have the ads cut from the video.

I'm trying to go through the rest of the video now to see what else is different. And exactly how much time is missing from that last part of the video recorded from TV.

ETA: I'm about 20 minutes in, and so far I've noticed that the Italian version has a couple scenes cut out, one I'm assuming because it might have been considered "graphic". And the audio seems to get off slightly every time the video fades out and in for what would be a commercial break. It's a relatively easy fix. I cut off a bit of the audio in that next beginning fade in until the audio is in sync again.

I'm starting to realize that the video conversion from 23.976 to 25 would have worked just fine most likely if the two files were completely exact. I didn't realize there were so many cuts in the Italian version until I started actually trying to watch it all the way through.

[manono]

I think you're right about the content being messed up.

Then the usual procedure is to open WAV files made from both the PAL version and the one you made from the TV broadcast speeded up to 25fps. You open them in a WAV editor and compare. They should be exact until you come to a place where the PAL version is missing audio. You remove the extra audio from your converted version until the waveforms line up perfectly again and go forward until they diverge again. Do that for the entire movie. It's no fun at all. Pure drudge work, especially if you're new at this. But you seem to have discovered the procedure on your own.

Or is one in English and the other Italian? So you can't go by the waveforms? Which is why you can't use the Italian audio? And so you have to compare the two different video versions and then cut audio from your converted audio? Not much fun, I'll bet

What kind of samples are you looking for? Screenshots? If so, of what?

I was looking for video samples but that's okay. It really does seem to be a PAL/NTSC issue but with the PAL version missing frames as compared to the English version.

You are missing the point...

Hardly, since her NTSC source is 23.976fps (if it's a from a film). If she takes a 23.976fps source and speeds it up from 24->25fps, then it'll be a few seconds off by the end, if the frame count is exact for the two sources. That PAL version may well have been created from a 24fps source, but her source has been slowed to 23.976fps. However, this one seems to be a lot more complicated than that because the framecount doesn't match for the two versions.

[poisondeathray]

You can either cut the "extra" English audio out, but another option is to add back in the English video scenes that were cut fom the Italian video. Or was the video quality really that much worse ? It might look weird if the quality jumps too much

[amber2403]

I think you're right about the content being messed up.

Then the usual procedure is to open WAV files made from both the PAL version and the one you made from the TV broadcast speeded up to 25fps. You open them in a WAV editor and compare. They should be exact until you come to a place where the PAL version is missing audio. You remove the extra audio from your converted version until the waveforms line up perfectly again and go forward until they diverge again. Do that for the entire movie. It's no fun at all. Pure drudge work, especially if you're new at this. But you seem to have discovered the procedure on your own.

Or is one in English and the other Italian? So you can't go by the waveforms? Which is why you can't use the Italian audio? And so you have to compare the two different video versions and then cut audio from your converted audio? Not much fun, I'll bet.

Yeah the other one is Italian, so it makes measuring up the audio impossible. I have been having to go by the video. But all of your suggestions have been great, and I really appreciate the help.

You can either cut the "extra" English audio out, but another option is to add back in the English video scenes that were cut fom the Italian video. Or was the video quality really that much worse ? It might look weird if the quality jumps too much

I tried doing that. And it will work. The quality is much worse than the italian version, but the sections that are cut out are relatively short in comparison to the whole thing so it's probably something I can deal with. But I am running into the PAL/NTSC issue again. The converter I used before only converted the audio. I need a good tool to use that can convert the video from the 23.976 to 25. If I try to use VidCoder to do it, it doesn't actually convert it though the settings says it should.

Any suggestions?

[poisondeathray]

If a simple speed up corrected the audio issue (23.976 to 25), ignoring the missing segments (ie. if you aligned the videos, the audio would match if the scenes were the same), then all you have to do is the simple speedup for video. All this means is the number of frames is the same, it just plays back faster, thus the running time is shorter by that fraction. Nothing is added or deleted or blended

In most NLE's you just "interpret the footage". ie. You just tell the editor to playback the clip faster at 25fps

In vegas, you right click the clip on the timeline and set the playback rate to 1.0427 (because 25/23.976), also disable resample to prevent blending. You will notice the clip "shorten" in duration, and a "notch" appear where the end was/is (it will loop from the beginning that part on after the notch)

In avisynth it would be AssumeFPS(25). You could use some front end like megui or whatever you prefer




A potential problem is your English version is 29.97 . That implies that you still have duplicates every 5th frame. Go verify if this is true on the vegas timeline (just go frame by frame). You would need to IVTC (inverse telecine), to get back the original 23.976 progressive film frames. If you can't figure it out , post an unprocessed sample clip with steady motion

[amber2403]

If a simple speed up corrected the audio issue (23.976 to 25), ignoring the missing segments (ie. if you aligned the videos, the audio would match if the scenes were the same), then all you have to do is the simple speedup for video. All this means is the number of frames is the same, it just plays back faster, thus the running time is shorter by that fraction. Nothing is added or deleted or blended

In most NLE's you just "interpret the footage". ie. You just tell the editor to playback the clip faster at 25fps

In vegas, you right click the clip on the timeline and set the playback rate to 1.0427 (because 25/23.976), also disable resample to prevent blending. You will notice the clip "shorten" in duration, and a "notch" appear where the end was/is (it will loop from the beginning that part on after the notch)

In avisynth it would be AssumeFPS(25). You could use some front end like megui or whatever you prefer




A potential problem is your English version is 29.97 . That implies that you still have duplicates every 5th frame. Go verify if this is true on the vegas timeline (just go frame by frame). You would need to IVTC (inverse telecine), to get back the original 23.976 progressive film frames. If you can't figure it out , post an unprocessed sample clip with steady motion

Your Vegas tip worked. I was able to change the play back rate to 1.0427 and it kept any of the original video clips that I inserted into the Italian version due to scene cuts on time, and the transitions from one clip to the next were seamless.

I didn't go frame by frame but the audio seemed to stay in sync, I think. It would occasionally get off when the show would fade to black and then back in again. But I fixed that by deleting pieces of the audio until everything lined up again.

Thank you for your suggestions!