Do i need amp for old speakers?

[therock003]

I have an old Dolby Pro Logic system that uses phase differential to emulate surround sound. Since i want to use my old Sony speakers in a true 5.1 environment will i need to buy a 5.1 AVR, or is their demand in power so low that they wont need amplification? Here are their specs:

Front Speakers

SS-EX90

IMPENDANCE 6 OHM
MAXIMUM INPUT POWER 120W

Center Speaker

SS-CN12
IMPENDANCE 8 OHM
MAXIMUM INPUT POWER 70W

Surround Speakers

SS-SR12
IMPENDANCE 8 OHM
MAXIMUM INPUT POWER 70W

Can a laptop card or something cheap route audio signals to these speakers so that i dont have to spend 200+ euro for an AVR-AMP?

[aedipuss]

a laptop if it has audio out will usually only be a headphone jack. some gaming laptops offer 5.1/7.1 out but it's through the hdmi port.

[therock003]

If i get an externl usb sound card, or even 5.1 from the motherboard, will it then be enough to power the speakers?

[MOVIEGEEK]

will it then be enough to power the speakers?

No, you need an amp(at least 10w per channel) to power speakers...100mw isn't enough.

[therock003]

Also whats more important the Watt rms or per channel? Cause i see my front speakrs are 120W each (even if they're old) and entry level amps-AVR rate near 75-80W per channel. Will that be a problem?

Also what are the main audio formats for multichannel audio? Dolby TruHD and DTS-HD master are the latest from each label? Are there other widely used formats i need to see if supported when choosing my unit?

[Hoser Rob]

Speakers don't have watts. They take watts. I don't know how many times I've seen people who think "100W speakers" will be louder than "75W speakers". Sorry, that makes no sense.

It's the sensitivity that you're concerned about, ie. how many dB they put out at 1W in the spec usually quoted, and, as mentioned, no sound card or headphone port will drive them. How much power you need also depends upon how loud you want to listen and how big your room is.

You will want to be sure what the impedance of your speakers are because generally entry level amps don't have power ratings for less than 8 ohms. With 4 (or even 6) ohm speakers they won't be able to out their full voltage and they'll go into distortion at less than their rated power. Or maybe even go into protection mode.

And you do not want the amp to distort. The vast majority of blown speakers are caused by too little power, not too much. Those power ratings assume clean power.

Otherwise, assuming the speakers are 8 ohm, 75W should be fine.

I wouldn't worry about those being old speakers. Some of the woofers in really old speakers have foam surrounds that will crap out eventually but I think yours probably have plastic or rubber surrounds. Speaker technology is actually pretty mature. If they were good 25 years ago, say, they're still good.

I can't answer your questions about 5.1 audio because, frankly, I'm not interested in any of them. I like good ol' stereo with as little processing as possible.

[MOVIEGEEK]

Also whats more important the Watt rms or per channel? Cause i see my front speakrs are 120W each (even if they're old) and entry level amps-AVR rate near 75-80W per channel. Will that be a problem?

Also what are the main audio formats for multichannel audio? Dolby TruHD and DTS-HD master are the latest from each label? Are there other widely used formats i need to see if supported when choosing my unit?

RMS(Root Mean Squared) is more important and safer to use, the "max" listed on speakers is usually what a speaker could handle temporarily but not constantly. Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD are the latest audio formats used on Blu-Ray so get an AVR that supports them, most do nowadays(Denon, Onkyo, etc).

Hoser Rob made good points on speaker impedance, you want to make sure your AVR can output the same as your speakers. Most entry level AVR's can only handle 8 ohm speakers but mid and high-end AVR's can also handle 4/6 ohm speakers.

[therock003]

My Front Speakers are definitely 6 OHM i just checked. I wasn't in front of them when i posted so i wasnt sure, but i am now. All the rest are 8 ohm. As for sensitivity, distortion and other parameters, i simply cannot know cause they're 90s speakers and icant seem to find any information on the internet for their ratings and sepcifications.

Just so i could get up to speed, what does impedance have to do with how things work?

The amps i'm looking at are entry level Denons (1513/1612/1713) and Pioneer VSX 421/422. I am just comparing feature and have a hard time deciding. Both of them have auto calibration microphones, and i'm trying to find out which ones better. mcacc or Audyssey?

[jagabo]

The lower the impedance the more power the speakers will suck from the amp.

[sanlyn]

Either a/v receiver will do, both are good brands. I read where Audyssey is a cleaner processor, but with most consumer speakers you won't hear much difference. Like Hoser Rob, I don't go for all that processing. It never fails to sound like crap on better speakers. The better the speaker, the worse those features sound. But that's up to you.Note that many a/v receivers today require self-powered subwoofers for multi-channel use. This varies by unit.

[julitomg]

The amps i'm looking at are entry level Denons (1513/1612/1713) and Pioneer VSX 421/422.

The Denon 1513, according to its homepage accepts 6 to 8 Ohm speakers, the specs for the Pioneer VSX 421 show that it uses 6 Ohm speakers (but looking at a picture of the back side shows that it also accepts up to 16 Ohms (so your 6 and 8 Ohms should be OK), also the Denon has one more HDMI input than the Pioneer if that matters to your needs. Be careful to connect the speaker cables with the proper polarity (+ and - )

[Hoser Rob]

... As for sensitivity, distortion and other parameters, i simply cannot know cause they're 90ion specs for many speakers because people would be shocked. 10%THD for a speaker at max rated power is actually pretty good.s speakers and icant seem to find any information on the internet for their ratings and sepcifications.

Don't worry too much about speaker specs. They're mostly useless in the real world. You won't find distortion specs for many speakers because people would be shocked. 10%THD for a speaker at max rated power is actually pretty good.

I strongly suspect your speakers are sensitive enough. I wouldn't worry too much about that. I don't trust most of those dB figures to be accurate anyway.

Just so i could get up to speed, what does impedance have to do with how things work?

The ability to handle low and/or complex impedances is mostly what makes good amps good. When they quote those amp power ratings they just hook up a very big resistor that will take the power.

However, a speaker is not a resistor. It has a complex impedance. A resistor has simple resistance.

This is why you can have 2 amps with the same power rating and one of them will play much louder. It'll usually also be heavier.

Personally, if I had speakers rated at 6 ohm I'd spend a little extra and get an amp rated a 4 ohms. The speaker impedance varies with frequency and will quite often dip down to 4 ohms or so right around 100Hz, which is an area where modern music tends to have a lot of energy.

[therock003]

Thank you guys for the information.

BTW is a calibrator mic so important? Some people argue, that its not a factor since you only get to use it once. But is it a difference maker?

IS there a way to use a computer microphone (Plantronics) plus recording software and do calirations via manual methods?

Other than that are there any other factors to watch out for? I mean Pioneer VSX-222 at 220 eur costs a lot less more than Denon 1612 which at 420 almost double.

[jagabo]

IS there a way to use a computer microphone (Plantronics) plus recording software and do calirations via manual methods?

Generally, no. The amp must know the properties of the mic in order to calibrate for the speakers. For example, if the calibration includes an equalizer function, the amp must know the frequency response curve of the mic. Or, to adjust volume levels of each speaker, the amp needs an omnidirectional mic, not a cardioid mic.

[sanlyn]

BTW is a calibrator mic so important? Some people argue, that its not a factor since you only get to use it once. But is it a difference maker?

Yes. People who argue that they aren't needed usually have tin ears.

IS there a way to use a computer microphone (Plantronics) plus recording software and do calirations via manual methods?

No. You are not making a recording. And it would take considerable acoustics expertise and time to figure out the spatial factors if you're not using the calibration instructions that come with the receiver..

Other than that are there any other factors to watch out for? I mean Pioneer VSX-222 at 220 eur costs a lot less more than Denon 1612 which at 420 almost double.

Audibly the DENON will be somewhat cleaner, depending on how able your speakers are. But visibly the DENON has a superior conversion to HDMI, can accept more inputs, and far better upsampling. There's nothing "wrong" with the Pioneer, but in this case you would get your money's worth with the DENON. The visual factor would be a marked difference, especially if your TV has no talent for upsampling, etc.

[Hoser Rob]

Calibrator mics are quite important. It's not that easy to integrate subs into a system.

[jagabo]

Of course, most people don't care about accurate sound. They just want it loud with a lot of bass and treble. You don't need calibration for that.

[sanlyn]

Sadly, I'll agree with that.

The idea behind calibrations like Audyssey is tweaking the phase and spatial relationships between speakers, and adapting spatial output to the room acoustics and the way speakers are arranged. In that respect, there's no way around the OEM instructions unless you're an audio engineer with your own gear.

[therock003]

Ok so i got the Pioneer VSX-422 cause it was the best value for me. Hope i wont run into any problems concerning my speakers.

BTW i dont have a woofer as of yet. I once was ready to buy one, but it was expensive (550Eur) and i couldnt carry it on a motorcycle, so i;m left with 5.0 system for the time being. You can select how you want to run your system inside the AVR right? Like set it to 2.0 or 2.1 or 5.0?

Also i will be connecting my ps3 hdmi into the hdmi input of thereceiver, and output from the receiver to the TV. Since i wont always need sound to ocme out of the AVR, can i get audio.video from the TV with the receiver on standby or will i have to switch cables whenever i need to do that?

Al ast question is, i'm looking for a quality cable to connect speakers to the AVR since the ones i got seem rancid. Is there anything with hard-shell silicone that wont bend or twistm or tear?

[Hoser Rob]

In what way do your cables seem 'rancid'? A/V cables are the biggest ripoff in the business. You don't need anything beyond the right gauge and solid construction.

Generally up to 15 feet (4.5 meters) 16 gauge is probably fine. You don't need fancy cables. Over that length try 14 or 12 gauge. But I wouldn't go lighter than 16.

[therock003]

Just hooked my system and run it with a bluray of the dark knight.

3 major things that worry me.

1. Front Left speaker, has lots of hissing. Is it possible it has some kind of damage? How can i determine this, and can it be repaired without high-cost?
2. Dialogues are being absorbed by environmental sounds, and sound to blurry and bassy.
3. Surround speakers sound so low, you need to stick your ear directly at them to notice if they're playing at all.

[MOVIEGEEK]

A:
1. Switch wires with right speaker, if hissing goes away then it must be the left speaker. Possible bad tweeter or capacitor in crossover. if hissing moves to right speaker then you have a bad AVR.
2. You need to go in the AVR menu and set up the speakers properly, make sure the center channel is enabled and the crossover is set to 120Hz.
3. You need to set the levels properly in the AVR, read the manual or use the built-in calibration(Audyssey, etc).

Did you buy the Pioneer new?
Can you return or exchange it?

[jagabo]

1. Front Left speaker, has lots of hissing. Is it possible it has some kind of damage? How can i determine this, and can it be repaired without high-cost?

Move that speaker to the right output. If it still hisses there's something wrong with the speaker.

2. Dialogues are being absorbed by environmental sounds, and sound to blurry and bassy.

Is there any sound coming out of the center channel speaker? Very low dialog volume usually indicates the receiver is set up for a center channel but the center channel speaker isn't working. Check the volume level of the center channel.

3. Surround speakers sound so low, you need to stick your ear directly at them to notice if they're playing at all.

Most movies don't have a lot of sound on the rear channels. Use the receiver's calibration function. Or use a test disc with tones that rotate between each channel to check and adjust the volume of each speaker.

If you can play an AVI or AC3 file through the system use this test video with 5.1 AC3:

[therock003]

Good Morning. Please excuse me, for being forgetful and not mentioning my model previously. I got the Pioneer VSX-422 i was mentioning earlier. I used the MCACC calibrator tool first thing before using any movie. It has some prerecorded noises that it runs in order to determine settings for each speaker. I placed the microphone on the couch at ear level and let it run its test. I have a center speaker, and its the one i mention in my first post, and it does output sound. Just not how i would like it to sound.

I also then turned surround sound on, and selected action movies template from the advansed surround settings. These are the only teaks i've done so far. Calibration->Surr.Sound->Movies.

I'm not at home at the moment, but i do remember the speaker that malfunction did so, with its original receiver, so if its not fault of the wires, or something else, then it is the speaker, (definitely not the new receiver) and i wonder if some store electrician can fix it cheap..

[jagabo]

i do remember the speaker that malfunction did so, with its original receiver

It sounds to me like the voice coil of one of the drivers is misaligned and rubbing against the magnet.

i wonder if some store electrician can fix it cheap..

I doubt it. The driver would have to be replaced.

[therock003]

I made some tweaks and i now get better results. Although it appears the hissing now sounds from one of the surround speakers as well. Is it possible i played them loud on my previous set, and burned them out somehow? I used to connect my ipod to the rca input of its original receiver and blast the receiver near the max (75-80%).

Anyway first off, i enabled multichanell output on my ps3, since it seems i only had it on stereo before, cause i was hearing sounds from my TV and i found no reason to have the multichannel switches on then. So evidently previously it must have been outputing to stereo and the receiver dooping it to surround.

I then went to manual setup of each speaker and lowered the faulty front speaker to the lowest decibel so i could hear the noise as little as possible (-15db).

I then identified surround speakers as large, so that the receiver won't cut lower frequency sounds giving them wider frequency range and extending their purposes so that i can feel they sound more often.

I dont expect much in terms of quality since my speakers are old, and part of home cinema, but if could get the hissing noises to disappear i will rest easy that i'm doing the best i can with the little money i have spent.

[jagabo]

What do you mean by "hiss"? Is it continuous? Even when the amp is playing silence? Does it occur only when there are other sounds coming out of the speaker?

[therock003]

It occurs only when sounds are played. Its like a hissing echo. Like when sound is played is accompanied by a hissing that resonates for a little while after the sound is heard. I hope i'm making some sense.

[therock003]

BTW i just tried the ac3 test file, and everything sounds right, only at the end, the lfe sounds from the problematic speaker. IS it possible it acts as both the Front Left speaker and the woofer, and it operates at 2 channels causing this snafu?

[jagabo]

BTW i just tried the ac3 test file, and everything sounds right, only at the end, the lfe sounds from the problematic speaker.

I think something is wrong with your setup or wiring.