Extra video top and bottom; black bars left and right

[koberulz]

I captured some HD footage from my Foxtel IQ2 with my Hauppage HD-PVR in HD, using the red green and blue video cables (I can never remember whether that's component or composite), and an optical audio cable.

However, when it displays in the capture software, as well as when editing the resulting M2TS file in Premiere, there is extra footage above and below what was displayed on my TV, and to make up for this there are black bars left and right. Why is this occurring?

[Baldrick]

How much? It could just be overscan, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overscan

[jagabo]

Maybe the component signal is SD and the source is HD. So you're getting a widescreen picture letterboxed in a 4:3 file.

[koberulz]

I output from Premiere as an SD file, opened that in VLC and took a snapshot. The area inside the white box is what was displaying on my TV originally:


Tried snapshotting the original 1080i footage in VLC, but it removed the black bars and was still the correct aspect ratio (the black bars still display when I watch the file in VLC in windowed mode, but not in fullscreen mode). Which is even more confusing.

[jagabo]

Your TV overscans, as do most. It doesn't show you the outer few percent of the frame. What was captured is the actual broadcast picture, all the way out to the edges.

[koberulz]

That makes no sense, though. The broadcast picture would have picture all the way out to the edges; this has black bars. Also, in the original 1080i file, the black bars disappear when viewing in fullscreen or when taking a snapshot, and the picture is still 16:9. In the picture above, from the 720i file output from Premiere, the black bars are there in fullscreen and in snapshots, and the picture is only 16:9 with them present.

This makes absolutely no sense if it's simply overscan.

[jagabo]

That makes no sense, though. The broadcast picture would have picture all the way out to the edges;

Not necessarily. Many broadcasts have black bars or junk at the edges. Broadcasters "know" you can't see the edges of the frame so they don't worry about junk out there.

Also, in the original 1080i file, the black bars disappear when viewing in fullscreen or when taking a snapshot, and the picture is still 16:9.

Some software simulates overscan so you need to be sure the software is really showing you the entire frame.

In the picture above, from the 720i file output from Premiere, the black bars are there in fullscreen and in snapshots, and the picture is only 16:9 with them present.

720i? Don't you mean 720p? Why would you make 720i?

If you have verified the 1080i really has picture all the way to the edges, and your converted file has black bars, then there is something wrong with your conversion in Premiere.

[koberulz]

720i? Don't you mean 720p? Why would you make 720i?

The screenshot above seems to be interlaced to me. I didn't change the interlacing, I just left that at the default for Premiere's DVD PAL Widescreen export setting.

If you have verified the 1080i really has picture all the way to the edges, and your converted file has black bars, then there is something wrong with your conversion in Premiere.

They are still there, but not nearly as wide:

[poisondeathray]

just left that at the default for Premiere's DVD PAL Widescreen export setting.

Premiere does it's conversion to SD based on 704px width, not 720px width , as per BBC SD guidelines

It uses a PAR value of 16:11 (1.4545) instead of 64:45 (1.4242) for PAL 16:9

Also, it does interlaced resizing very poorly . Both "aspect ratio" information and "interlaced resizing" is discussed frequently here and other forums such as Adobe forums if you want more information

[jagabo]

720i? Don't you mean 720p? Why would you make 720i?

The screenshot above seems to be interlaced to me. I didn't change the interlacing, I just left that at the default for Premiere's DVD PAL Widescreen export setting.

Yes, your source is obviously interlaced. But 720i (1280x720) is extremely non standard. But I guess you mean 576i (720x576) since you are making DVDs.

Premiere does it's conversion to SD based on 704px width, not 720px width , as per BBC SD guidelines

It uses a PAR value of 16:11 (1.4545) instead of 64:45 (1.4242) for PAL 16:9

Yes, that makes sense now that we know he is going to DVD.

[koberulz]

But I guess you mean 576i (720x576) since you are making DVDs.

That's what I meant, yeah. Sorry.

Premiere does it's conversion to SD based on 704px width, not 720px width , as per BBC SD guidelines

It uses a PAR value of 16:11 (1.4545) instead of 64:45 (1.4242) for PAL 16:9

Is there a way I can change that?

Also, it does interlaced resizing very poorly

In what way?

[poisondeathray]

Premiere does it's conversion to SD based on 704px width, not 720px width , as per BBC SD guidelines

It uses a PAR value of 16:11 (1.4545) instead of 64:45 (1.4242) for PAL 16:9

Is there a way I can change that?

yes there are workarounds. I prefer to do manipulations in avisynth because there is more control, but you crop & stretch to fit within adobe. Just use search, there is a lot of info, because this is common topic
e.g
http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/adobe-creative-suite/491519-cs5s-pal-16-9-aspect-ratio-wrong.html
http://provideocoalition.com/index.php/cmg_keyframes/story/par_for_the_course/
http://blogs.adobe.com/toddkopriva/2009/07/pixel-aspect-ratios-in-after-e.html
http://provideocoalition.com/index.php/cmg_blogs/story/make_it_go_away/

Also, it does interlaced resizing very poorly

In what way?

Quality is a lot worse, especially more blurry and full of artifacts.

Just search for "interlaced resizing and Adobe." There should be dozens of threads. It's a well known issue that NLE's do very poor scaling. It's slightly improved in CS5.5 with the right settings , but still sub-par in terms of quality

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/310261-AVCHD-Footage-to-SD-(AVI-for-Premiere)?p=193...=1#post1930565
http://www.precomposed.com/blog/2009/07/hd-to-sd-dvd-best-methods/


A commonly used method by Adobe forum for better interlaced scaling is using Dan Issac's HD2SD() script, but there are many avisynth methods, you can find them here and Doom9
http://forums.adobe.com/thread/546075

There are special scripts for high aliasing content as well, often you would choose to process some sections differently , e.g. IResize() script is used for that, it reduces the line twittering. Not all content requires it, so you would only use that one in special circumstances




PS I don't want to sound like I'm brushing you off, but you should really attempt to hit the search button, all this has been discussed thoroughly here and on other forums, you can find guides and tutorials, even some video tutorials.

[koberulz]

but you crop & stretch to fit within adobe.

Do I need to stretch, or just crop? One of the posts in one of the threads you linked to says to just chop 13 px off the top and bottom of the picture. Speaking of which, wouldn't doing that just make the problem worse?

A commonly used method by Adobe forum for better interlaced scaling is using Dan Issac's HD2SD() script

Thanks, using that now. Though it takes nine times as long to encode, which is a pain.

There are special scripts for high aliasing content as well, often you would choose to process some sections differently , e.g. IResize() script is used for that, it reduces the line twittering. Not all content requires it, so you would only use that one in special circumstances

I have no idea what any of that means.

PS I don't want to sound like I'm brushing you off, but you should really attempt to hit the search button, all this has been discussed thoroughly here and on other forums, you can find guides and tutorials, even some video tutorials.

Initially, all I had was black bars. Figured I'd get a ton of results about letterboxing, which is completely irrelevant. Searching is only helpful when you have a search term that isn't going to get results that are complete rubbish and when you know how to work out which results are relevant.

[poisondeathray]

but you crop & stretch to fit within adobe.

Do I need to stretch, or just crop? One of the posts in one of the threads you linked to says to just chop 13 px off the top and bottom of the picture. Speaking of which, wouldn't doing that just make the problem worse?

It works in terms of removing the pillarboxing, but quality takes even bigger hit (adobe is scaling twice now) and you lose pixels from the active image area. You're essentially zooming in on the frame. Not ideal IMO.

A commonly used method by Adobe forum for better interlaced scaling is using Dan Issac's HD2SD() script

Thanks, using that now. Though it takes nine times as long to encode, which is a pain.

I personally don't like it , but it's up to you - every method has pros/cons - it's up to you to decide what tradeoffs you are willing to make . I just mentioned it because I though it funny that official Adobe team members recommended it . They have been aware of the interlaced scaling issues for a long time and only recent have begun to address it.

There are several other avisynth based methods as well, and other software that people use to scale

In case it wasn't clear from above: these are 2 different issues here: "PAR interpretation" and "interlaced scaling" . If you're only worried about black borders then ignore the scaling issues

[koberulz]

So what do you recommend I do? The PAR issue was the only thing concerning me initially, but only because I had no idea Premiere sucked at interlaced scaling.

[poisondeathray]

I can't really make any recommendations, because I don't know what your requirements or criteria are.

Do you only care about not getting the pillarboxing ?

Maybe that crop and stretch to fit is "good enough" for your purposes ? Why don't you test it out on a small sample to see if it meets your needs?

I only brought up the interlaced scaling issue, because so many people complain about crap DVD quality coming out of AME in these situations. There are actually a few more "gotchas", but I won't bring them up here, and they aren't as big

[koberulz]

My initial care was only the pillarboxing, but the hd2sd-converted footage looks a hell of a lot better than what came out of Premiere originally. If there's an even better way, I'm all for using that.

At the very least, I need to get rid of the pillarboxing without undoing all the quality-saving work of hd2sd.

[poisondeathray]

If you like hd2sd, then stick with that. I think it produces good results overall and can be used in general situations.

It's hard to make generalizations, because you use different workflows for different situations . For example high alias prone content won't look as good using hd2sd

There's not necessarily "better" ways, but different ways.

[koberulz]

high alias prone content

No idea what that means.

How do I get rid of the pillarboxing, or at least reduce it to where it was in the original 1080i file, without destroying the quality I've managed to retain with hd2sd?

[poisondeathray]

high alias prone content

No idea what that means.

Fine lines, pattern material e.g. brick walls, stripe shirts, roof tiles - with interlaced content you will get artifacts if the resize is too sharp. Often it needs to be specially treated , or low passed before it's encoded

Have a look at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliasing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interlaced_video#Interline_twitter

How do I get rid of the pillarboxing, or at least reduce it to where it was in the original 1080i file, without destroying the quality I've managed to retain with hd2sd?

Are you still getting the pillarboxing with the hd2sd script ? How did you use it ? Did you frameserve out or use an exported intermediate ? What were your settings ?

[koberulz]

Just compared it to the old file, and whilst the black bars are still there, they're back to the smaller size they had in the 1080i file, which is what I was after. Thanks for the help.

[poisondeathray]

Are you using AME ? or feeding a script to AME? that 's why the borders are there in the first place.

I just looked at that tutorial - I haven't seen that tutorial video before, but I do things slightly differently when using scripts . There are multiple ways to use scripts +/- frameserving with Premiere

For example, if your original capture came right to the edge (zero borders at all), and you export out 1080i50 either intermediate render or frameserve, then create an avs based on hd2sd (or similar script), then feed that to an encoder like hcenc or cce, you should get no pillarboxing at all

In general, you want to move manipulations away from adobe software, especially resizing , deinterlacing (at least for now, it might improve in CS7 or 8...LOL)

[koberulz]

There was a small amount of black in the original 1080i file. The thing that got me was Adobe adding to it when I resized, and the fact that whilst the game footage had pillarboxing, the graphical overlays and commercials didn't.

[jagabo]

Note that the reasoning for the small pillarbox bars is this:

The ITU digital video spec calls for the 4:3 or 16:9 image to be encoded in a 704x576 (or 704x480 NTSC) sub portion of the frame, and the frame to be (optionally) padded out to 720x576 with pillarbox bars. This is because real world video capture often has the picture slightly off center. Having the padding at the edges of the frame makes sure the video capture still contains all of the picture, even if it slips a few pixels to one side or the other. With analog TV broadcast it doesn't matter if there are small black bars at the edges of the frame -- they won't be seen on normal televisions because of overscan.

The DVD spec refers to the MPEG 2 spec regarding aspect ratios. The MPEG 2 spec is very clear: the full frame encodes the 4:3 or 16:9 picture. There is no padding at the edges of the frame. (There is a provision in the MPEG 2 spec that would allow the center 704x576 of a 720x576 frame to represent the AR but I've never seen it used on a commercial DVD. And I suspect many players would not handle it properly.)

So there are two specs for digital video and they are at odds with each other. Most people, including professional mastering houses, appear to ignore the difference when making DVDs. If you examine several DVDs very carefully you'll see that some appear to adhere to one spec, some the other. Of course, this is fairly hard to do because you have to find objects of known aspect ratios, that aren't distorted by the camera angle, lens distortion, etc., and measure them.

You might be able work around this by using a 704x576 frame instead of 720x576. Both are DVD compatible.

[koberulz]

The pillarboxing was in the original, though.

I've got a Lagarith AVI file that works in MPC. VLC can't display it, though it does run the audio. I can open it in Encore, and add it to a timeline, and add chapters, and view it there with no problem. When I try to transcode it, however, Encore crashes. How do I fix this?

EDIT: Ran it through TMPGEnc to get an m2v file and an ac3 file. Trying to import those crashes Encore. What the heck is going on?

[koberulz]

Okay, turns out it was my computer being a PITA for no particular reason. Got it working, burned it to a disc. Played it in my DVD player, and the picture filled up the whole screen; no sign of any black bars. Thanks for the help.

[koberulz]

What would you recommend for getting a basketball game from 1080i to 720p?

[will7370]

Don't know if this helps or not, but I had the same problem editing video with my AVS Video Editor 6.0. My solution was not to import the VOB files into the editor, but solely the Video_TS file. This allowed the file to appear properly in the editor with no black bars and a proper aspect ratio. It gave me a beautiful copy.