DVD media wars

[Darr1960]

I see we have another standard Blu- Ray ? whats next DVDdivxx

I was hoping to buy a DVD burner in a couple of months, now what?

Leave it to the big companies(hitachi,Sony ,Pioneer) to fight over and create another standard to use..

We as consumers and lovers of this forum were hoping for some good
news.. well I guess if you can store more date per disk and it will play on
current DVD players it will be ok.. I HOPE>>

E-mail me tell me what you think

[Xesdeeni]

Don't panic (in large friendly letters on the cover...).

Just like DVDs didn't put an end to CDs, this new DVD format won't put an end to DVDs. This format is specifically to address HDTV demands. It may hold lots of standard definition TV, but DVDs can hold lots of audio too.

Don't worry. The format won't be available for several years. Then there will be the adoption period, while DVD players have this format added. And finally burners and recorders for the home will become affordable.

You have at least 5 years. How old is your CD burner? Does it bug you to replace it with a DVD burner today? Do you feel you wasted your money on the CD burner?

I don't. And the process from DVD to the blue-ray thingy will be similar.

Xesdeeni

[bigmicka]

You obviously didnt read the report from Science news. They will have units out by the begining of next year.

In other words, christmas this year.

mic

[You_Are_Alive]

I agree with others and tend not to worry too much about this new tactic. This will not influence me about my decision to buy a dvd burner, the new AO4. The reason is cause no one yet talked about its cost. Its that simple. I bet when these new drives come out, they'll probably go for $800 and up (that's just a low estimate). It won't make sense to cannibalize their existing products, especially if it is still a profit center for the individual companys. Which brings me to my next point, does anyone really believe that these 9 or 10 companies will play nice with each other? If Pioneer or Sony comes up with a better way to manufacture Blue-ray, does anyone believe they will freely give out this technology to the others without "royalty fees"? And who will actually produce the new media for it and how much? I remember when DVD-R was $35 and DVD-RW was $45. I wonder how much Blue-ray media will go for? I'll admit though, Blue-ray just has a cool ring to it, don't you think?

[Darr1960]

I will buy and DVD-R/RW burner when the prices come down, I just don't
like it that there will be so many formats...it makes for poor consumer
electronics confidence...

[magelucid]

I was going to buy a dvd burner until I saw that story too. The last time I got burned was the k56flex vs X2 modem standard a few years ago. My isp (only one in my area) said they were committed to x2 and that was end of story, So I went out and got an x2 modem, I think it was around $90 and was surfing happily for a year or so until the industry decided that V.90 was the new standard. Of course my ISP turned face and upgraded to it. Then I had to pay, I think it was around $30 for the v90 upgrade firmware for my modem. It was nothing but problems, everyone in my area was getting frequently dropped connections and corrupted downloads. The ISP shrugged and said the firmware wasn't working properly and to contact my manufacturer. Which I did and never got a straight response from. I eventually had to go out and get a v.90 modem just to stay online. When the industry fights we're always the suckers that have to eventually upgrade to whatever standard they decide on after pushing and praising the other technologies they drop cold turkey. So you can bet your bottom dollar that there will be some heavy copyright protection methods on those discs and burners and probably a few competing formats before it's all over. DVD burning technology is still in it's infancy so it's best to probably wait until the waters calm slightly or you'll burn a lot of stuff on dvd's that may or may not be supported in the future.

[shardison]

Both DVD-RW and +RW etc. burned videos play on most DVD players right now. If they don't play on yours it's because your player is non-standard. DVD players are firmly entrenched as the best way to play movies on standard televisions. If you have home movies to transfer or want to rip and burn copies of movies you "own", the DVD format is all you need. Every DVD disc you burn today will be playable in whatever device you buy in the future to play movies (as long as the device can read 120 mm spinning discs with a laser!). Stop worrying about new formats.

The new Blue Ray will hold several standard DVD movies or hours of your home videos at their present resolution and bit rate. That would be cool but unnecessary. But RE-recording those videos to the HDTV format that they are really ment for is a waste of time. The video you have now doesn't need the resolution or bitrate that Blue Ray provides. Until you own a HDTV home camera and some HDTV Blue Ray movies, you just plain don't need anything more than a good -RW/+RW DVD burner of any type.

This is not comparable to the situation before DVD burning was possible. (S)VCD's can't archive your home videos or DVD's at full quality for the future. You can do that now with the new DVD writers.

[You_Are_Alive]

There's another reason Blue-ray has been announced so quickly, I think. And it has everything to do with HDTV. JVC and others have already come out selling Digital-VHS Recorders. They can readily accept HDTV signals going out of your TV and into the DVHS recorder. Quality wise, its exceptional to see HDTV recorded with no quality lost. I was at a dealer and convinced him to hook up a DVHS machine and record a segment from the Olympics. He recorded with only S-video and quality was great and very clean. Better then any DVD, and it should be. He didn't have a firewire cable though, but I would have been curious to see the difference. And there should be cause no conversion from DV>AV.

Also its alot cheaper (media wise) and way easier to use, just like any VCR. You pop in a SVHS or DVHS tape (really the same tape, you just have an extra hole in the tape) and record. And since its backwards compatible with VHS, you get 100% playback on all existing VCRs, unlike DVD and its many variations. Sure you may say go back to tape, why? How many times did you get a DVD rental from Blockbuster and it wouldn't play cause of all the scratches? Personally to date, I have gotten 6 within a 5 month period. I wish people would treat the DVDs with more care.

Heres a link to JVCs flagship DVHS, the newest and bestest:
http://www.jvc.com/featured_product.jsp?modelId=MODL026758

Older models exist like the Panasonic PV-HD1000 D-VHS Digital V and the Hitachi VTDX815A (discountinued cause of newer models).

[RAAGAAman]

I wouldn't worry so much about the new Blu-ray standard. You probably will not see anything until late 2003 and even then the prices will be very high. The production costs for the Laser itself is very high and the developing companies are still having problems making the life of the laser last. Also, remember this is targeted at the HDTV market which is not exactly on fire right now. You will have to buy a new DVD player that will playback the Blu-ray disk. Not!! DVD players are selling like hotcakes so Go ahead and buy your DVD burner. Standard 650nm DVD will be around a few years before your average Joe can afford a Blu-ray drive.

[vitualis]

You've missed the point.

It's not as if DVD burners are like CD-R burners where there is only one standard. There are MULTIPLE mutually-incompatible standards that don't play back on many original DVD drives (again, unlike CD-R that plays on just about every CD drive unless you're really unlucky).

The introduction of a new video disc standard that has a standardised recordable format from the start will stiffle off the commercial initiative to standardise the current crop of recordable DVDs or recordable DVD media support. This is especially pertinent when you consider that the consortium that supports "Blu-Ray" are essentially the same ones that did DVD.

Unless there is consensus/standardisation of the recordable DVD technologies before the introduction of a new superior technology (within the year), widespread affordable home DVD recording (that has the same compatibility as say VHS or CD-R) will not become a reality.

Regards.

[shardison]

I have to disagree.

The point is that it doesn't matter what standard the drive writes as long as completed works are compatable with existing DVD drives and players. Look up the specs for what a +RW drive does. A completed disc looks and plays exactly like a the lower layer of a dual layer commercial disc. If your drive can't see it, it's a non-standard drive. Get a new one for $99. Most any DVD player that sees DVD movies, will see +RW discs. Into the distant future there will be disc players of all kinds, and all of them will read today's DVD's, be they commercial movies, -RW or +RW. We're not talking about a new standard for video discs; it's a new method for applying the existing format standard to a 120mm disc.

Blue Ray is for HDTV and is not necessary for today's video. And any Blue Ray player will be able to play regular DVD's; and thus any disc burned today on your DVD +or -RW burner. No doubt whatsoever.

Read this whole site and then decide:
http://www.dvdrw.com/

[vitualis]

The point is that it doesn't matter what standard the drive writes as long as completed works are compatable with existing DVD drives and players. Look up the specs for what a +RW drive does. A completed disc looks and plays exactly like a the lower layer of a dual layer commercial disc. If your drive can't see it, it's a non-standard drive.

Unfortunately, you've been sucked in by DVD+RW's hype and advertising. If you yourself look up the new compatibility rating of DVD+RW you will find that it is in fact either only as compatible or even less so than DVD-R.

A DVD drive that can't read DVD+RW is not non-standard. A DVD drive is only designed to read standard manufactured DVDs and audio CDs. It is the recordable medium itself that can't fool the gross majority of players that it is in fact a standard DVD.

This is the whole problem with recordable DVD media. If it was compatible with the vast majority of the existing consumer base of DVD players, Blue-Ray wouldn't make a difference. DVD is already too entrenced. However, the reality is that DVD-R/W or DVD+R/W is not particular compatible with the existing DVD consumer base.

If the consumer base needs to go through another generation of DVD players just so that universal recordable DVD medium becomes a reality, it begs the question on why not simply wait for 1-2 years for a truly unified system (i.e., Blu-Ray). Simply, I don't believe that recordable DVD compatibility is a palpable enough reason for most consumers (read, your average person, not a digital video enthusiast) to upgrade their DVD player.

As for Blu-Ray players being able to play DVD-R/W or DVD+R/W, this is entirely contentious. There is no reason why they should be able to do this. Indeed, many existing DVD players cannot play DVD-R/W or DVD+R/W. Remember, many DVD players even now still aren't designed even for CD-R/W. Furthermore, from the commercial perspective of pushing the recordable Blu-Ray format, it would seem to be in the consortium's interests not to have recordable DVD compatibility, at least not right away.

Regards.

[shardison]

Vitualis, I stand by my statements. Compatibility is an issue right now with playing (S)VCD's. That's what this whole web site is about, isn't it? There's a huge "compatibility list" of DVD players, many of which can't read anything but commercial DVD's. So what do people do? They buy the DVD players that have the software and hardware to play (S)VCD's. This isn't a Beta vs VHS issue. The machines are in place.

With DVD writers it's more simple. Chances are your DVD player already plays +RW because it looks like a DVD. No new software or hardware needed. I don't know where you got the idea that the "gross majority of players" can't read +RW (or -RW for that matter.) You're just plain wrong on that point. If you have some big list of DVD players that show that +RW or -RW are incompatible with "the gross majority" of players, then please point me to it.

I really don't understand what you are proposing. Stick with (S)VCD? Don't burn any discs until Blue Ray comes out? Wait until somebody makes a DVD burner that uses discs with the reflectivity of a commercial disc? While you wait for Blue Ray I'll be making DVD's.

[Lelie]

I see we have another standard Blu- Ray ? whats next DVDdivxx

I was hoping to buy a DVD burner in a couple of months, now what?

Leave it to the big companies(hitachi,Sony ,Pioneer) to fight over and create another standard to use..

We as consumers and lovers of this forum were hoping for some good
news.. well I guess if you can store more date per disk and it will play on
current DVD players it will be ok.. I HOPE>>

E-mail me tell me what you think

If you want some Blu-Ray details, check http://www.eetimes.com/story/OEG20020222S0020
Don't hold your breath until Toshiba comes online as well.

Larry Elie

[vitualis]

Vitualis, I stand by my statements. Compatibility is an issue right now with playing (S)VCD's. That's what this whole web site is about, isn't it? There's a huge "compatibility list" of DVD players, many of which can't read anything but commercial DVD's. So what do people do? They buy the DVD players that have the software and hardware to play (S)VCD's. This isn't a Beta vs VHS issue. The machines are in place.

Really? How many people buy a new DVD player because of VCD/SVCD or CD-R/W compatibility issues?

If you have some big list of DVD players that show that +RW or -RW are incompatible with "the gross majority" of players, then please point me to it.

You read my post incorrectly. The majority of DVD players can play DVD-R/W or DVD+R/W. But not the "vast majority". DVD+RW gave the hype that just about EVERY DVD player (bar the rare odd few) could read this type of media (e.g., like CD-R).

However, once it was actually realeased, it became apparent that this was not the case. DVD+RW is in fact no more compatible than DVD-R.

This issue is quite frankly a serious one from a consumer point of view. There is a slight but definite risk that DVDs I make on recordable DVD media will not work on a given player. This is quite unlike the situation with CD-R. It is extremely unlikely that I will make an audio CD (e.g.) on CD-R that will not play on a given CD player or CD-ROM drive.

I really don't understand what you are proposing. Stick with (S)VCD? Don't burn any discs until Blue Ray comes out? Wait until somebody makes a DVD burner that uses discs with the reflectivity of a commercial disc? While you wait for Blue Ray I'll be making DVD's.

What are you talking about? I'm not proposing anything. I'm just saying that the corporations involved in DVDs/consumer video are screwing over the public... With talk of a MPEG-4 extension to the current DVD, the future is even more murky.

Regards.

[Lelie]

I see we have another standard Blu- Ray ? whats next DVDdivxx

I was hoping to buy a DVD burner in a couple of months, now what?

Leave it to the big companies(hitachi,Sony ,Pioneer) to fight over and create another standard to use..

We as consumers and lovers of this forum were hoping for some good
news.. well I guess if you can store more date per disk and it will play on
current DVD players it will be ok.. I HOPE>>

E-mail me tell me what you think

Well, it isn't over yet. Money is money. Blu-Ray may yet die or be postponed: Just a few days after the major anouncement, the DVD Forum decided that red was still the way to go...

http://www.eetimes.com/story/OEG20020301S0091

Just wait; two standards.

[shardison]

[/quote]Really? How many people buy a new DVD player because of VCD/SVCD or CD-R/W compatibility issues?

I don't know how many people bought a DVD player for the compatibility features, but I did.

VCD, SVCD and DVD are dead ends. But DVD is a really good dead end that will be playable well into the future. I'm not worried one bit. It is all I need for now.

Those who buy current DVD recorders will be happy until HDTV becomes widespread and they buy an HDTV set AND they want to record in HD. But still, the DVD format will be around years from now.

Blue Ray, or MPEG4 for HDTV, you shouldn't care unless you want to be able to record and burn HD sources right NOW. In that case it IS too early. But I wouldn't call it a screwing by corporations. I don't need Blue Ray or whatever right now anyway, and I bet you don't either. By 2005, (when my cheap DVD player is dead and my big screen TV has a dull & green picture) I expect to get a wide screen HDTV, HD DTS, and a recorder that burns standard DVD type discs with HD MPEG4. Either that or a digital HD tape, or if I have the money, Blue Ray. And I think that all my old DVD's that I've burned will be playable too, on something.

The future is not murky, it's just full of possibilities. That's a good thing. In the meantime, stop worrying about what format is going to win the HDTV recording race and go buy a DVD burner and have some fun.

[TheInformer]

Here's a little bit of info from this site:
http://www.dvdwriters.co.uk/

Pioneer Dominates DVD Writer Market
"Pioneer, a leading developer of DVD-technology, is dominating the DVD writer business following the introduction of the first multi-functional DVD-R/RW writer, the DVR-A03, in March 2001. In just six months, 800,000 writers shipped worldwide to leading manufacturers including Apple, Compaq, Sony Vaio and NEC Computers International (NEC CI) as well as direct to consumers. In 2001 Pioneer's European sales of DVD-R/RW drives totalled 140,000 and Pioneer anticipates that in 2002 its European sales will more than double to 300,000 units.

This news comes as Hitachi Maxell reported that it is to double production of DVD-R media to 700,000 per month to meet with the increase in DVD-R/RW drives installed in PCs.

"Initial sales of the DVR-A03, with the support of leading PC manufacturers, suggests that the DVD-R/RW is set to become the de facto platform for general purpose IT and home entertainment storage applications," said Mark Grotefeld, marketing communications manager, Pioneer Multimedia Division. "Our OEM partners are incorporating the DVR-A03 into their offerings to great effect and are achieving great results, even at this early stage."

Another interesting little blurb:

Possible Class Action Against Hewlet Packard Over DVD+R Issues
The DVD '+' isn't without its legal issues either. Over at the DVDplusRW forum people are getting annoyed at the misleading advertising claims being put out by the companies marketing the '+' format. They are considering a class action suit against the companies, especially HP because they were promised the drive(s) would write to +R media, but now they have learned that they will never be able to write to this format and are stuck with drives that will only write to expensive DVD+RW disks (which offer lower compatibility).

[vitualis]

The future is murky.

From the average consumer point of view, not that of a video enthusiast, there is no clear recordable digital video format that is at present safe from being obsolete and unsupported within the next handful of years.

Sure, DVDs are a great standard and will last for years, but what about the recordable format? There was hope for a while that the next generation of DVD players would all support DVD-R/W and DVD+R/W thus eliminating the issue of these two contending formats (as well as compatibility problems with older DVD players).

However, with most members of the DVD consortium supporting Blu-Ray (which includes support for a recordable format from the start), it would seem that this will not occur putting the viability of DVD-R/W and DVD+R/W as a universal recordable format in jeopardy.

This is what I mean by the "public being screwed over" and it should be self-evident.

As for YOU buying a DVD player for compatibility issues, you are one of the informed few. It should be apparent with the number of posts here regarding "My DVD player can't play CD-R/W" or "My DVD player can't play SVCD", etc., that the average consumer does not buy a DVD player with compatibility issues in mind.

As for YOU authoring DVDs onto DVD-R/W or DVD+R/W media, I have nothing against it as there seems to be the presumption. This is a completely separate issue to the greater commercial movements at play and you are confusing the two issues. The issue is not whether authoring onto recordable DVD media is good or bad (to which I am completely indifferent to), but rather that corporations are artifically accelerating the obsolescence of recordable DVD media for their own benefit (i.e., screwing the consumer).

Furthermore, please think beyond your US-centric point of view. Home DVD authoring may be relatively inexpensive in the US, but it sure as hell isn't in most parts of the world. In fact, it is unlikely to be even at the end of this year -- which is exactly when Blu-Ray will be released.

Regards.

[Greg12]

but the same can be said about Blue-Ray

I read in Time it will not be backwards compatibile with any red laser medium (CD-RW, DVD+-RW)

So you will only be able to play blue-ray

and I really can't tell the difference between TV and DVD, my tv isn't deisgned and i don't plan to spend hundreds on blue ray when i can buy a DVD player that will burn CD's and DVD's

[shardison]

The issue is not whether authoring onto recordable DVD media is good or bad (to which I am completely indifferent to), but rather that corporations are artifically accelerating the obsolescence of recordable DVD media for their own benefit (i.e., screwing the consumer).

It is not an arbitrary format change for profit. It has the specific purpose of giving the consumer a way to put HDTV video on a disc. When HDTV gets into the hands of the average consumer, he's going to be pissed if he can't record at or near the same quality as the original HD source. Blue Ray is a solution to a problem that only those with HDTV have.

Is HDTV an artificial means to accelerate broadcast TV obsolescence? We'll that's another discussion.

If anyone buys a "Blue Ray" anything without first having an HD video source, they're an idiot. DVD is for standard broadcast TV; Blue Ray is High Definition TV, period. The distinction must be stressed.

If anything, it's almost too late for Blue Ray, because Digital HD VCR's already exist in the stores.

And finally, there is no sin in making a profit and making jobs for people. There would be no forum discussions here if the "corporations" didn't have the vision to create the products we're using right now. Bitch all you want about those nasty corporations, but they are the ones that made your last posting even possible .

[vitualis]

If you are going to take that line of thought, then there is no further argument.

I personally believe that companies/corporations should actually provide support for the products they produce.

BTW, digital HD VCRs are not universally popular and don't exist in many parts of the world. The same is true for HD-TV. Furthermore, it is not a portable medium so isn't really even a competitor for Blu-Ray when it exists.

Regards.