Upper Fields or Lower Fields for Pal DVD.pulling my hair out

[RimmeR]

I am really starting to go mad
My footage is filmed in Pal (uk), then edited on Canopus Rex RT, then recorded via firewire to full size DV cam tape.

I then capture DV tape through firewire to another pc into Premiere 6 with matrox rt 2500, creating separate Wav and Avi files. The Avi file is then loaded into TMPGenc 2.51 plus for Encoding to mpeg2 for DVD-r output. (No Sound)

Here is where it goes pear shaped

If i use the wizard the "judging field order" sets field order to Top field first and 4:3 625 line pal 704 x 576.

BUT

there are so many posts on this forum and others that contradict each other.

Some say Pal DV upper field first, some say Pal DV lower field first

Please can somone give me a definative answer. [/b]

Also i thought Pal DV was 720 x 576 not 704 x576??

Thx[/b]

[Triffid]

I believe that the output from the encoder will be in the correct format The problem is that you need to get the input frame order correct so that it can do that (or so that deinterlacing has any hope of working, if your are not using full frame)

As I understand it, the input order depends on your capture card, and maybe even varies from capture to capture (at least it seems that way in my experience. Someting Top first, somtimes Bottom first). So, as long as TMPGEnc is judging it right for the current file being processed, the output should be OK! (I used to split the frames into fields in the deinterlace filter and try to determine which order they were really coming in...this is still an option of you don't trust TMPGEenc)

[SatStorm]

My limited experience with dv, show me that it is bottom field first (Field B). Both in Pal and NTSC.
Field A first is basicly for analogue captures, most of DVDs and all DVB transmissions..
Some times, frameservers swap the field order. That creates big mess...
Also, sometimes, tmpgenc mess up with progressive/interlace source.
I have this problem all the time, when I crop with a frameserver a DVD or DVB source. TMPGenc say it is progressive, while it is Interlace. So, I set it manually to Interlace and all the problems are gone....

[peswe]

I use TMPGEnc deinterlace filter to check if my field order settings is correct (even if i'm making a interlaced SVCD). Choose Even-Odd, click on the hor.bar and press'n'hold ridht arrow on keyboard. If the film is smooth, the field order is correct. If it's jerky, it's not.

But guess what... I captured from my Canon Hi8 camcorder, to AVI, about 20 min of film (about 50 clips). And at some points in the AVI-stream, where I've paused my camcorder, the captured AVI had different field order!!! How about that.

Peter

[RimmeR]

Thx guys,
After reading triffids reply

As I understand it, the input order depends on your capture card, and maybe even varies from capture to capture (at least it seems that way in my experience. Someting Top first, somtimes Bottom first).

I checked my capture settings in Premiere and noticed something odd.
When i select my project as standard premiere DV 1394 PAL the capture is bottom field 1st but when i set it to Matrox rt2500 PAL 1394 DV capture its top field first

When i encoded 2 clips from matrox top fields 1st capture, settings in TMGenc bottom fields, the output was jerky, but when encoded with top field i.e same as capture, the results was fine.

Q) Should i set the matrox capture to bottom field first and encode using bottom field first, or leave it as upper field first and encode as top field first??

Thx

[Triffid]

I thinks you should encode using the sequencing (in TMPGEnc) that your source file contains. Information about the field sequence is included in the MPEG file, so the decoder should be able to deal with it either way (at least that's how it seems to me)

Hope it helps.