SONY vs. VERBATIM DVD+R

[championjosh]

If I had to choose between the two, which would be the better brand.

Ive been using Sony disk for a while, but i see best buy got a cake of VERBATIM for sale and im thinkin about going exchanging one of my sony cakes to try them out for the first time.


Sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo o, which would be the better dvd brand to choose?


-Thanks

[mats.hogberg]

Verbatim

/Mats

[lenti_75]

usually verbatim, but if you find sony made in japan, those are good too.

[lordsmurf]

Both are fine, quality is about the same. I would go for the Verbatim, but I won't snub the Sony.

[UC7]

Unfortunately, it looks like Verbatim is continuing to put out a whole new wave a garbage product.
They used to be tops when it came to burning double layer. I rarely had a bad burn. It's not the same any longer.

I bought 2 * 20pk spindles from Supermediastore and over half the discs were bad.
I into a a new spindle from Amazon, thinking that maybe the Supermediastore stored them incorrectly (in high heat or something like that.) Unfortunately, the Amazon product, while a tad better on the percentage of good burns, is still below the expectations of a high quality product .

I haven't tried the Sony brand yet. What kind of percentages of good vs coaster are you guys getting with them?

[lordsmurf]

Verbatim is still tops with DL media. Part of the problem is newer drives not having firmware optimized for the rated speed of the discs, but instead for speeds higher than the burn rating.

The Sony brand is RICOH or other makes of DL media, not Sony-coded, and will not be as good as the Verbatim.

What burner are you using?

[UC7]

Thanks for the response.

I am using the 760A Plextor, with the updated firmware 1.07

I will admit that the Verbatim purchased through Amazon is performing better than the other store. I guess I just expected a bit more, as it always performed better in the past. It just feels like some of the quality control is gone.

[UC7]

The strange thing is that both spindles are reporting the same information when I use Nero to check Disc Info.

Verbatim
MKM 001 (000)

Oh well... maybe I just got a horrible batch from the one store and not the other. Perhaps one store is buying knockoffs. I hear that Verbatim is a popular brand for people who create fakes.

[lordsmurf]

It has nothing to do with batch. Batches are hundreds of thousand of discs. I doubt either are knockoffs. Plextor never made great drives. If that's a Plextoer re-badge, who made it, and maybe it's not all that great either.

Might just be bad luck, or other issues with the burner, or even dust temporarily lodged in the drive.

So many factors to consider.

[hanugro]

I never have problem with Verbatim. Maybe yours is fake one? They make fake product of everything these days.

[OneSickPup]

The strange thing is that both spindles are reporting the same information when I use Nero to check Disc Info.

Verbatim
MKM 001 (000)

Oh well... maybe I just got a horrible batch from the one store and not the other. Perhaps one store is buying knockoffs. I hear that Verbatim is a popular brand for people who create fakes.

I'll bet those troublesome MKM 001's are MII (Made in India) rather than the MIS (Made in Singapore) variety. The MII Verbatim DL's tend to be more variable and a lot of the early production was especially bad. Check the COO (country of origin) on the packaging.

[oldandinthe way]

Verbatim. Mitsubishi doesn't own a movie studio.

[UC7]

You are correct, OneSickPup.

I checked the packaging, and these discs were all made in India. If that is where the poor QControl is happening, then that it unfortunate.

As for the drive, I know that Plextor doesn't hold the crown among most users at the moment, but they aren't a bad company. It isn't a rebadged drive. It's from Plextor. I built the computer last year. These days I might opt for the Samsung. I thought about just replacing the drive, but I'm not sure that the act of changing what was always a solid performer to something new will fix this particular problem.

Again. Thanks for your time.

[OneSickPup]

As Lordsmurf said earlier - firmware may be the culprit here. I don't know anything about your Plextor and would be curious what write speed it is selecting for this media. Unlike MIS MKM 001 that most often can be burned at higher speeds these MII MKM 001's seem to fair better at 2.4x. If you have the time try that and see if your coaster rate decreases. Be sure and let us know. Good luck.

[TBoneit]

Going Back to Sony vs Verbatim.

Using two different model burners.
On the Single layer discs The last batch of Sony's 16X only burn at 8x Using Nero or ImgBurn despite being set to 12X since I always like to burn 1 notch slower than top speed.

The Verbatim 16X show as 18X available and burn fine at 16x.

THe Sony's every now and then one won't even burn. and a couple of the ones that burned and verified have playback issues. So I've put them aside and started using my last spindle of Verbatims and then I rushed out to Best Buy last night for more Verbatims while they are on sale.

My old batch and the new batch both show MCC 03RG20 and MIT. However I'm hoping the new ones are good as they have changed the packaging to blue and orange and the top of the disk looks different too.

For verify I have tried the Nero and Imgburn verify function and the Nero CD-DVD speed test. I believe Lite-Ons are still good for scanning.

My Experinces and hope they help.

[lordsmurf]

Burning at a lower speed than rated is purely a firmware issue of the burner. It might even be a firmware choice, if they know those media perform better at a lower speed.

[orsetto]

The DL Verbatim made in Singapore is (was?) the high water mark for easy burning and apparent reliability, particularly on DL-capable standalone DVD recorders. But Verbatim has shifted much of their production to India now, and in most folk's experience on this forum anything Made In India is a guaranteed disaster. DL burning is a crapshoot with most any brand of disc at this point, reliability statistics are still a ways off. Short-term many newer computer-installed burners will do a tolerable job even with the much-maligned Memorex DL discs, I have never had a failed burn with them on my Pioneer 710 (111) PC drive, but future reliability remains uncertain. DL should probably be considered more as backup media for portable players or other casual use, not as archival storage.

In single layer DVD media, nothing available easily at retail stores these days can be considered a definite always-safe bet for everyone. Much depends on how new your burner is: those using a standalone DVD recorder are pretty much trapped with no firmware upgrades to handle the endlessly changing media parameters. Many of us still use recorders with hard drives built a couple years ago, equivalent new models are no longer for sale in the US so they can't be replaced. Verbatim single-layer consistency went up in smoke a few months ago: the majority of cakeboxes on retail shelves use the new god-awful MAP6 (-R) and PAP6 (+R) formulations that many pre-2006 dvd recorders gag on and spit out as "unreadable disc". Other CMC-made brands like TDK were marginal last year and have become progressively less compatible since the summer. Even the fail-safe Taiyo Yuden is apparently having problems with the disc halves coming unglued. Its a grim time if you own a "vintage" DVD recorder.

Currently the only media I'm stocking up on is Sony MIT 16x DVD-R 100-pak cakebox on sale at Staples thru the holidays for $22.98 (down from their usual ridiculous $59.98.) This media works well in every burner or recorder I've tried- not a single coaster in over 250 discs burned since last year! Just be sure to check the wrapper next to the UPC symbol and verify it reads "Made In Taiwan". Do NOT buy Sony media if it reads "Made in Malaysia"- that stuff is absolute garbage. Grab the MIT now while you can still get it.

[SCDVD]

The only thing that worries me about Verbatim is they are farming out a lot of their DVD manufacturing. I know they try to be diligent about QC and inspection but it's difficult to always be on top of everything when it isn't your own shop. Sony also outsources so the same concern applies there. Taiyo Yuden makes their own media which seems safer to me. One could argue that Mitsubishi's own manufactured product may be a bit better than Taiyo Yuden in some cases and I wouldn't disagree. For my own personal comfort factor, I lean toward Taiyo Yuden because of their in-house manufacturing.

[oldandinthe way]

Staples has a high return rate on SONY media.

There are many possible explanations. Every returned batch I have tested have burned properly in my LG burners. So I offer no suggestion other than old out of date burners - where the owner figured his SONY burner would like SONY media.

[UC7]

As Lordsmurf said earlier - firmware may be the culprit here. I don't know anything about your Plextor and would be curious what write speed it is selecting for this media. Unlike MIS MKM 001 that most often can be burned at higher speeds these MII MKM 001's seem to fair better at 2.4x. If you have the time try that and see if your coaster rate decreases. Be sure and let us know. Good luck.

I think everyone hit on the problem. I am guessing that it is that India manufactured Verbatim.
I never burn Double Layer at higher than 2.4x and my firmware is the latest (1.07).

Thanks for your assistance. I will have to start buying from brick and mortar instead on online. That way I can check where the discs were created.

[TBoneit]

LS, The Sony 16X SL used to burn properly until this last spindle. The Burning software properly picks up that it is capable of 16x. It lets me select 12x or 16x it just ends up dropping back to around 8x+.

It could be a firmware issue I suppose. However the Lite_on 20X burner is up to date on firmware and as far as I know is a current model. It offers to burn the Verbatim 16X Sl discs at 2x to 18X, I just play safe at 12X.

Edit, I just checked now and Nero is displaying a 8X as max burn speed on the Sony's.

[jman98]

I think everyone hit on the problem. I am guessing that it is that India manufactured Verbatim.
I never burn Double Layer at higher than 2.4x and my firmware is the latest (1.07).

Thanks for your assistance. I will have to start buying from brick and mortar instead on online. That way I can check where the discs were created.

For what it's worth, I don't burn above 2.4 on my Verbatim DVD+RL discs either (MII is all I can find) and they seem OK so far.

There's no problem with looking in stores, but particularly with DL media you may find nothing but MII. The problem I've found with brick and mortar is that the prices aren't good, so if I need to order various things, it's cheaper to mail order. However, I think Verbatim single layer discs are still not MII. I think India is only making the DL media right now.

[mohnitor]

Here in Mexico, almost all new Verbatims available are now RitekF1 - so I avoid Verbatim.
Still some Sony Made in Japan available - so I go for them.

[ROBERT BLACK]

I think everyone hit on the problem. I am guessing that it is that India manufactured Verbatim.
I never burn Double Layer at higher than 2.4x and my firmware is the latest (1.07).

Thanks for your assistance. I will have to start buying from brick and mortar instead on online. That way I can check where the discs were created.

For what it's worth, I don't burn above 2.4 on my Verbatim DVD+RL discs either (MII is all I can find) and they seem OK so far.

There's no problem with looking in stores, but particularly with DL media you may find nothing but MII. The problem I've found with brick and mortar is that the prices aren't good, so if I need to order various things, it's cheaper to mail order. However, I think Verbatim single layer discs are still not MII. I think India is only making the DL media right now.

I've seen made in Singapore DL media from Verbatim but it's getting harder to find. I suggest people use the B&M stores if they're having trouble with the MII media. I won't chance it all and will only go so far as the Made In Taiwan single layer Verbatims. Although I have to admit, I used the Ritek DL burned at 2.4x and they turned out okay, with no pixelation or problems with the layer transition on any of my players. Software used and burn speeds are a definite factor so pay close attention to that.

[orsetto]

Staples has a high return rate on SONY media.

There are many possible explanations. Every returned batch I have tested have burned properly in my LG burners. So I offer no suggestion other than old out of date burners - where the owner figured his SONY burner would like SONY media.

You seem to be directly involved in testing returned discs on a mass scale, so I've found your many previous posts on media quality issues especially interesting. Do you think a high percentage of those Sony returns are on the smaller 50- or 25-pak cakeboxes, which are all Made In India at every Staples I've checked in the New York area? The only MIT Sony that Staples seems to carry in NY is the 100-pak, which I've been waiting months for them to put back on sale at reasonable cost. I picked up 4 of these hundred-paks last January, used up two of them with not a single coaster. When they put them on sale again last month, I bought another two and have used up around 40 discs from each cakebox- again no coasters. NOT ONE. Pretty remarkable, as I was getting about a 10% average coaster rate with other media which is mostly sourced from CMC nowadays. More recent CMC, such as TDK DVD-R I've tried on and off the last few months, have been something like 60% bad on my pre-2006 Pioneer and JVC DVD recorders and Apple Superdrives, and 30% bad on my PC-based Pioneer 111 burners. Ditto the Sony Malaysia DVD-R I've sampled, something like 40% bad burns on my equipment. The newer Verbatim MAP6 DVD-R from Officemax, etc, is damn near 100% rejected by my hardware, upsetting because I had high hopes for it.

I do mostly agree with your basic premise that hardware is often the culprit- once the source factory for name-brand media switches countries, major and minor changes occur in the disc fabrication that will throw off many types of burner. I don't think that means the discs are actually garbage, rather they're just incompatible enough to be worthless to many of us locked into older OEM burners. Its true that TY media remains a great fallback when all else fails, but its a pain to get when you're in a hurry and TY has been having mechanical issues lately (a lot of 8x TY I've purchased online this year has separation problems- they literally fall apart as I remove them from the cakebox.) Throw in what LS has mentioned re their lower inherent reflectivity, and even the legendary TY can be a mixed bag for some users.

Right now Sony MIT -R works for me most of the time, so I'm snapping it up while its on sale and still on store shelves. If I find out tomorrow that some other brand can equal or better it, I'd jump ship in a heartbeat- brand loyalty has no place in todays haphazard blank media market. I understand those of you who love Verbatim and TY, I once relied on them completely myself, but EVERY damn one of these mfrs is running a shell game now with new formulations. Certainly if you bought a good-quality flexible burner last month for your PC, anything goes, you can probably burn cork in it if you want to. My concern is for owners of legacy set-top DVD recorders by Pioneer, JVC, Toshiba, Sony, Panny, etc.- those folks are increasingly finding it a gigantic PITA to keep usable discs on hand.

[aedipuss]

Here in Mexico, almost all new Verbatims available are now RitekF1 - so I avoid Verbatim.
Still some Sony Made in Japan available - so I go for them.

verbatim-the company does not re-brand other manufacturer's discs. if you are getting crap re-labeled as verbatim it is someone else doing it locally.

order verbatims online from a reputable source of your choice. i like newegg.com or buy.com, but if they ship to mexico i don't know.

[SmokieStover]

Verbatim!

Never had any problems with them, EXCEPT for maybe 2% when burning with a Samsung 16X OEM burner.....what a POS that thing is. Samsung seems to be all the buzz now, but my TS-H552B didn't like any 16X media (Except Verbatim) that I ever tried. The only -R Media it would burn consistently was Verbatim 16X @ 6X.

Here's some scan data showing typical results for both Verbatim and Sony +R 16X media. Both burned and scanned with a LiteOn LH-16W1P (Walmart Special), ImgBrn:

Verbatim +R16x @ 12X

Nero CD-DVD Speed: Disc Info
Basic Information
Disc type: : DVD+R
Book Type : DVD-ROM
Manufacturer: : Verbatim
MID : MCC 004 000 (00h)
Write speeds: : 2.4 X - 4 X - 6 X - 8 X - 12 X - 16 X
Blank Capacity : n/a
Extended Information
Layers : 1
Write strategies : 4 X
Disc Status : Closed
Raw Data
Physical Format Information (00h)
0000 - 01 0F 01 00 00 03 00 00 00 25 D3 0F 00 00 00 00 - .........%......
0010 - 00 00 07 4D 43 43 00 00 00 00 00 30 30 34 00 38 - ...MCC.....004.8
0020 - 23 54 37 12 02 54 6C 02 92 5F 15 15 0B 0B 08 08 - #T7..Tl.._......
0030 - 01 19 1B 0C 0C 0C 0D 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 - ................
0040 - 01 00 38 38 02 2C 5A 1A 05 2E 23 10 04 1E 1D 01 - ..88.,Z...#.....
0050 - 00 00 02 2C 5A 1A 05 2E 23 10 04 1E 1D 01 00 00 - ...,Z...#.......

General Information
Drive: LITE-ON DVDRW LH-16W1P
Firmware: SL08
Disc: DVD+R (MCC 004)
Selected speed: 8 X
PI errors
Maximum: 14
Average: 1.60
Total: 28517
PI failures
Maximum: 2
Average: 0.00
Total: 686
PO failures: n/a
Jitter: n/a
Scanning Statistics
Elapsed time: 9:51
Number of samples: 117646
Average scanning interval: 1.21 ECC
Glitches removed: 0

Sony +R16X @ 8X

Nero CD-DVD Speed: Disc Info
Basic Information
Disc type: : DVD+R
Book Type : DVD-ROM
Manufacturer: : Sony
MID : SONY D21 000 (00h)
Write speeds: : 2.4 X - 4 X - 6 X - 8 X - 12 X - 16 X
Blank Capacity : n/a
Extended Information
Layers : 1
Write strategies : 4 X
Disc Status : Closed
Raw Data
Physical Format Information (00h)
0000 - 01 0F 01 00 00 03 00 00 00 1F 5A 3F 00 00 00 00 - ..........Z?....
0010 - 00 00 07 53 4F 4E 59 00 00 00 00 44 32 31 00 38 - ...SONY....D21.8
0020 - 23 54 37 14 00 28 6E 00 80 69 17 19 0C 0C 0A 0B - #T7..(n..i......
0030 - 01 19 1B 0B 0B 0E 0F 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 - ................
0040 - 01 00 38 38 00 20 61 24 0B 2E 23 10 04 1E 1D 01 - ..88..a$..#.....
0050 - 00 00 00 20 61 24 0B 2E 23 10 04 1E 1D 01 00 00 - ....a$..#.......

General Information
Drive: LITE-ON DVDRW LH-16W1P
Firmware: SL08
Disc: DVD+R (SONY D21)
Selected speed: 8 X
PI errors
Maximum: 44
Average: 8.43
Total: 122384
PI failures
Maximum: 3
Average: 0.01
Total: 1152
PO failures: n/a
Jitter: n/a
Scanning Statistics
Elapsed time: 8:32
Number of samples: 96729
Average scanning interval: 1.20 ECC
Glitches removed: 0

The Sony Disk play fine though.

[mohnitor]

verbatim-the company does not re-brand other manufacturer's discs. if you are getting crap re-labeled as verbatim it is someone else doing it locally.

order verbatims online from a reputable source of your choice. i like newegg.com or buy.com, but if they ship to mexico i don't know.

You can buy these Ritek - Verbatim in whole Latin America !
There´s a lot of info on the net - they are real, not fake.
OfficeMax, OfficeDepot and WalMart etc. are selling these Verbatims.

Believe it or not: there are people without a credit-card in this world ... So nothing with online buying.

A few people mentioned, that these Ritek-Verbatims now also appeared in Europe. A friend of mine in Germany bought them at MediaMarkt. Sad but true.

[lordsmurf]

verbatim-the company does not re-brand other manufacturer's discs. if you are getting crap re-labeled as verbatim it is someone else doing it locally.
order verbatims online from a reputable source of your choice. i like newegg.com or buy.com, but if they ship to mexico i don't know.

You can buy these Ritek - Verbatim in whole Latin America !
There´s a lot of info on the net - they are real, not fake.
OfficeMax, OfficeDepot and WalMart etc. are selling these Verbatims.
Believe it or not: there are people without a credit-card in this world ... So nothing with online buying.
A few people mentioned, that these Ritek-Verbatims now also appeared in Europe. A friend of mine in Germany bought them at MediaMarkt. Sad but true.

This is not true.

In fact, there is a recent interview with a company head from Europe discussing their choices in media, and they have stated plainly that they only use their own Mitsubishi media (Verbatim), with the occasional Taiyo Yuden (beacuse it's the only other disc to their quality levels). I didn't see Ritek or anything else in that list.

As somebody else has said, you're probably running across some fake crap that is being dumped locally. It happens.

[lordsmurf]

and in most folk's experience on this forum anything Made In India is a guaranteed disaster. DL burning is a crapshoot with most any brand of disc at this point, reliability statistics are still a ways off.

Verbatim is actually confused by online user forums right now. The India production lines ares identical to what was set up in Singapore, and single-layer is identical to what is set up in Taiwan. All of the raw materials and quality control measures are the same.

Their guess (and mine too) is that too many burner makers are doing whatever they want, to the detriment of even good media. Burning speeds for DL media are up to 8x on 2.4x discs, on many drives. Of course they'll burn badly. Verbatim is following the same sage advice of "at-speed, or one generation under" (meaning 8x, 12x or 16x on 16x media, for example). Too many people buy a new burner, get the newer production lines of media, which just happen to be Indian, and let the new burner burn a 16x disc at 18x-20x. That's where most complaints come from. It's user error.

I'm not saying some folks aren't having legit problems, but there is the all-too-typical problem of jumping the gun on conclusions, which makes the entire batch of complaints null and void. And that sucks. People could be more helpful if they'd quit with the self-conclusions and do a little more process of elimination (assisted by somebody that knows what they're doing is not also a conclusion-jumper).