Blue ray Not so Blue ray

[PC2K1]

Philips 42" plasma @ 720P
gold plated

I just got this Samsung BDP1400 at BestBuy today on post Thanksgiving Day Sale. I was NOT amazing how much Blue ray not perform as great as I thought it would be.

I think it may be the movie, but overall all three Movies titles, House of Flying Draggers, TMNT, and 300. So far, the Blue ray demonstrating on these titles just little better or the same as the conventional upscaling DVD players.

Any ideas?

[edDV]

Answer is "Philips 42" plasma @ 720P " which is probably 1024x768p native.

[lordsmurf]

You bought into the hype. Hype being the keyword.

[jman98]

It's several things as edDV and lordsmurf pointed out. They're both right.

Your TV doesn't support 1080 resolution, so everything you watch on BluRay will be downscaled to 720p. This is a lot less impressive than 1080i/p displays.

"House Of Flying Daggers" became rather infamous as one of the first and one of the worst BluRay discs. At the time it was released, the "geniuses" (ha ha ha!) at Sony couldn't get anything but old MPEG-2 encoding working for BluRay, so "House Of Flying Daggers" was encoded with MPEG-2. In theory you can get excellent results even from old MPEG-2, but the encoding job was poor. They had to re-do the disc a few months ago because it was so unimpressive, but I don't know if the re-encode was any better or which version you have. I have no idea what TMNT is. That's what happens when you make up abbreviations. Since I don't know what that means and I'm too lazy to look it up, I can't comment on whether or not that was an early BluRay disc. The early ones were pretty much all disappointing because of poor encoding. 300 should be OK though, so I'd tend to blame your TV on that one.

Upscaling normal DVD is good enough for a large number of people, so there is some truth to what lordsmurf says. Some people just don't think either high def DVD format has much to offer, but perhaps if your TV could support 1080 resolution natively, you might be in a better position to decide for yourself.

[mats.hogberg]

downscaled to 720p. This is a lot less impressive than 1080i/p displays.

A very recent Swedish test with "video experts" (whatever that can mean) conducted by IDG, showed that very few could accurately distinguish 720p from from 1080p ("random guesses would have scored better" ) - and even 480p was frequently mistaken for 1080p. The test TV was a Samsung F9 52", viewed from 3.5 and 2.0 meters. Test movie was Casino Royale.

/Mats

[Scooter_NJ]

I would say it's more how you have things set up. I have a Sony VPL-400Q that is over 10 years old. When I watched "Cars" with my Panny Blu-Ray, I could make out individual vehicles in the overhead shots of the stadium.

Blue Ray and HD-DVD ROCK!

Check your settings!

[PC2K1]

ummm I dont know about the 720P that causes the poor picture, but watching oh DishTV HD channels I cant really tell from 1080 & 720 TV and it is Perfect.

I agreed is like these movies are just being copied from DVD into the Blue ray and so not from the original actually filiming; although, animate movies seem to be the best due to graphics.

[jagabo]

A very recent Swedish test with "video experts" (whatever that can mean) conducted by IDG, showed that very few could accurately distinguish 720p from from 1080p ("random guesses would have scored better" ) - and even 480p was frequently mistaken for 1080p. The test TV was a Samsung F9 52", viewed from 3.5 and 2.0 meters. Test movie was Casino Royale.

A video expert who can't see a difference between 480p and 1080p on a 52 inch TV from 2 meters is obviously blind.

[samijubal]

Samsuck and Philips, not surprising.

[videobread]

Samsung is the top of the line. They make 80% of the screens out there. Laptops, monitors and the best HDTV. You are misinformed to knock Samsung.

[edDV]

Lets add some perspective.

I'm not knocking your HDTV. Your TV is a 42" 1024x768 native plasma which is ideal as a living room TV where people sit farther back than 3 ft. Such a TV displays DVD upscaled from 720x480p to 1024x768p reasonably well.

That said a downscaled source usually looks better than an upscaled source so Blu-Ray downscaled from 1920x1080 to 1280x720 and then rescaled to 1024x768 should look somewhat better than upscaled DVD but not by a great deal.

You can't evaluate the quality of the Blu-Ray disc except for your own needs. To see the Blu-Ray disc in full quality you would need a higher resolution and larger monitor.

As for MPeg2 vs. VC-1, the general view is that 25Mb/s MPeg2 is approximately equal in quality to VC-1 or H.264 at 12-14 Mb/s or about 2x. These are the generally used bit rates for MPeg2 or VC-1 on Blu-Ray or HD DVD. They even out in quality but VC-1 allows more content.

Encoding can be botched in either format. The early Blu-Ray MPeg2 process has been criticized and many of those discs are being remastered. It isn't an MPeg2 vs AVC issue.

jman98 is ready to diss MPeg2 as old legacy but MPeg2 will be with us for many years yet and remains the correct encoder for low process power playback. VC-1 and H.264 require powerful hardware decoders at HD resolutions.

[lordsmurf]

A very recent Swedish test with "video experts" (whatever that can mean) conducted by IDG, showed that very few could accurately distinguish 720p from from 1080p ("random guesses would have scored better" ) - and even 480p was frequently mistaken for 1080p. The test TV was a Samsung F9 52", viewed from 3.5 and 2.0 meters. Test movie was Casino Royale.

A video expert who can't see a difference between 480p and 1080p on a 52 inch TV from 2 meters is obviously blind.

Sitting 2 meters away (about 6 feet) is probably what makes you go blind!

On a high quality 1080p 55" screen @ 120hz with video filters engaged, the difference between HD and DVD is negligible, when sitting at a proper distance (9-12 feet away). Even with 20/15 vision and trying to look for errors. The image is every bit as lively and impressive on both. The DVD is slightly softer, but it's not necessarily lacking any detail, it's just a slightly softer focus.

Even at 55", the benefits of HD are largely wasted, unless you stick your eyeball against the screen. You need to have a 60" minimum screen, and even that is not a magic number. It's when you get into those 70-100" displays that you can finally see leaps in quality. It's not because HD is better, but because the image is spread across more pixels to suit that larger display. That's really the whole reason HD was invented, for larger displays. It was never about tiny monitors (40" and below).

Image quality really has less to do with HD, and more to do with the television. My Sony KDH-55A3000 looks better on analog cable channels or DVDs than some HD sets look on HD feeds or HD discs. It's not a comparison of just resolution, but the fluidity of motion and cleanliness of the image. High-res crap is still crap. You need the extra features to actually make it a good experience. Resolution alone doesn't fix the quality.

Flaws are there in the non-HD material, yes, but you have to look for them and sit ridiculously close. You have to want to complain, it won't come out naturally. Traditional signals can look better on HD sets, but only on the better sets with filters that fight flaws of the older signals. Most sets lack filters, which is BS from an industry that is foisting new technology on us, like it or lump it. As it stands, they lie and pretend HDTV is magically better, when it fails on many counts.

The reason I waited so long to buy my own HDTV is because so many sets out there are garbage. From skewing 4:3 aspect, to having grainy video, to having blurry-motion video, most of those HD sets are trash. I can get a better image from a 15-year-old 13" budget tv sitting in my kitchen. It may be lower resolution, but it looked a hell of a lot better.

[j1d10t]

I have no idea what TMNT is. That's what happens when you make up abbreviations.

TMNT isn't just an abbreviation, it's the name of the movie. Years ago it used to be "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles", but now they released a movie and just called it "TMNT". DVD/HD DVD/Blu-Ray release date August 7th 2007.

PC2K1: Another thing to check is the noise filters on your TV, if it has them. When I'm watching standard TV I usually turn the noise filters on low, but when I'm watching a DVD, or something hi-def I turn them off because it makes the picture look way too soft and I lose a lot of detail.

I have also noticed that a lot of stores that are showing HD DVD and Blu-Ray on a display TV are not using the best set-up. They'll have a Blue-Ray (or HD DVD) player hooked up to a 50 something inch 720p TV. The picture doesn't look all that good - looks just a bit better than a standard DVD. Or you'll see it hooked up to a 35 inch TV. What is the point there?

[PC2K1]

Thanks all for the valuable information. It seems that this Blue ray cant play in Full Screen on my 720P. I will likely to return it..because I know we all want the maximum performance out of the Plasma screen, besides I have two Philips Plasma 42" with 720P and the lacking to watch full 1080P movies, there's no point of getting this expensive player. However, the Blue ray auto detected and play in 1080i with the plasmas.

I just dont understand and know the difference why local air broadcast HD and Satellite TV are in Perfect Full Screen (no bars), but not in Blue ray 1080P movies. In Blue ray the Main Menu, FBI warning, Studio Logos etc.. are in Perfect FULL Screen shapes, just not when actually play the movie. Updated the player firmware, TV format setting changes, etc.. still no Full Screen improvement.

[edDV]

Thanks all for the valuable information. It seems that this Blue ray cant play in Full Screen on my 720P. I will likely to return it..because I know we all want the maximum performance out of the Plasma screen, besides I have two Philips Plasma 42" with 720P and the lacking to watch full 1080P movies, there's no point of getting this expensive player. However, the Blue ray auto detected and play in 1080i with the plasmas.

I just dont understand and know the difference why local air broadcast HD and Satellite TV are in Perfect Full Screen (no bars), but not in Blue ray 1080P movies. In Blue ray the Main Menu, FBI warning, Studio Logos etc.. are in Perfect FULL Screen shapes, just not when actually play the movie. Updated the player firmware, TV format setting changes, etc.. still no Full Screen improvement.

That only has to do with the movie aspect ratio. If the movie is typical 2.35:1 it will have letterbox on a 16:9 screen. I see this all the time on TV HD movies. Some channels chop the sides or squeeze the sides to reduce the amount of letterbox. There should be nothing different about a Blu-Ray or HD DVD player in this regard vs. a normal DVD player. Your TV should have aspect ratio controls to alter the way a letterbox movie is displayed.

[jman98]

jman98 is ready to diss MPeg2 as old legacy but MPeg2 will be with us for many years yet and remains the correct encoder for low process power playback. VC-1 and H.264 require powerful hardware decoders at HD resolutions.

Perhaps I could have been clearer in my comments, but you're definitely reading something into them that I didn't intend. I have no problem with MPEG-2 per se, but it is fair to call it "old", especially in comparison with VC-1 and H.264. In fact, I often warn people here that H.264 playback may be a problem for them at high resolutions unless they have dual core CPUs so I'm not one of those "put everything in H.264" guys.

For the record, I archive copies of NBC's "The Office" in 1080i and MPEG-2 format, so I'm not opposed to MPEG-2 for high def, but Sony definitely botched the encode of "House Of Flying Daggers" and it was in MPEG-2. I'm not sure what the problem was, but if they didn't use a high enough bit rate, that could be it.

[lordsmurf]

PC2K1: Another thing to check is the noise filters on your TV, if it has them. When I'm watching standard TV I usually turn the noise filters on low, but when I'm watching a DVD, or something hi-def I turn them off because it makes the picture look way too soft and I lose a lot of detail.

Noise filters don't affect sharpness on my tv, just the noise.
It attacks mosquito, edge, ghost and blocks ... but sharpness isn't touched.

Cowabunga.

[davideck]

A video expert who can't see a difference between 480p and 1080p on a 52 inch TV from 2 meters is obviously blind.

There are lots of "video experts" who fail to notice additional detail. But 1080i/p is almost three times the horizontal resolution of 480p. That's pretty tough to miss!

IMO, BluRay/HD-DVD is as much about artifact/noise reduction as it is about resolution. It is not hype. The benefits are there and they are significant. Whether a substantial market share will notice or be willing to pay is another issue, but that does not make it hype.

SACD was not hype, either. It is virtually dead, but I have a handful of 5.1 SACDs and I think they sound fantastic! Obviously, I am in the minority, but that does not make it hype.

SACD and DVD-Audio are (were) competing formats.
BluRay and HD-DVD are competing formats.
Go figure.

[PC2K1]

edDV,

If I understand you correctly, based on my plasmas, there is no way to get a Full Normal Wide Screen HD with the Blue ray player...? All Blue ray movies I have are all in 1080p format. Changing the TV into Full Screen will be like this, people in the movie are either TOO FAT or TOO SKINNY and not a TrueHD. Also I dont like any bars; except in 4:3 format where Wide Screen HD not available. Again, I still don't know why Broadcast HD shows are in great Full aspect, but not in Blue ray player.

[Krispy Kritter]

Black bars on the top and bottom of the screen, are there for ALL movies not filmed in 1.85:1 (16x9 which is also the widescreen TV format). It has nothing to do with 1080p, 720p, Blu-Ray, or HD-DVD. It is the aspect ratio used by the cameras and film when the movie was created. You will see the same black bars on a DVD or Blu-Ray version of the same movie. There are ways to alter the image to reduce/eliminate the black bars, but you are also removing part of the picture.

[edDV]

edDV,

Again, I still don't know why Broadcast HD shows are in great Full aspect, but not in Blue ray player.

TV series are shot 1.78:1 (16x9)

Movies are usually shot 2.35:1 or wider.

Some TV networks (e.g. TNT-HD) distort 2.35:1 movies into 16x9 full screen. Is that what you are talking about? Others chop the sides off. Most HD channels show 2.35:1 movies with letterbox.

[PC2K1]

edDV:
I dont remember seeing chop of or bars on any HD channels, local news station, NBC HD, Food HD, VOOM channels all full wide screen in Hi-Def no distortion whatsoever. Unless no available film then it defaults to 4:3 film with side bars. I think broadcast use 1080i which my TV supports.

Krispy Kritter,
I think there has something to do with the screen 720p, 1080p, 1080i ratio, I hope not.
For example, my brother-in-law also bought the same Samsung Blu ray player and play the movie Dinosaur http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/movies.php?id=19 by Disney in 1080p on his 50" plasma Panasonic 1080p and the picture are fitting in Full Screen not bars from start to finish, including warning logos to credits. This movie has the same aspect ratio as my, the only thing I havent try is play my discs on his TV.
ps: I will try and let you guys know.

[edDV]

edDV:
I dont remember seeing chop of or bars on any HD channels, local news station, NBC HD, Food HD, VOOM channels all full wide screen in Hi-Def no distortion whatsoever. Unless no available film then it defaults to 4:3 film with side bars. I think broadcast use 1080i which my TV supports.

As I said, HD TV series are shot 16x9, movies are typically shot with wider aspect ratio. If a TV network wants to show a movie it can show it as shot with letterbox or it can chop the sides and attempt to follow action (called Pan and Scan) or it can horizontally squish the picture various ways to maintain full height.

Local news stations: These are produced 16x9 (1.78:1 aspect ratio) with sidebars for 4x3 field stories.

NBC HD: Ditto local news. Series are shot 1.78:1 aspect ratio.

Food HD: HD shot 1.78:1 aspect ratio. Old shows shown with sidebars.

VOOM: If movies will show letterbox or use Pan&Scan.

[Jim44]

Krispy Kritter,
I think there has something to do with the screen 720p, 1080p, 1080i ratio, I hope not.
For example, my brother-in-law also bought the same Samsung Blu ray player and play the movie Dinosaur http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/movies.php?id=19 by Disney in 1080p on his 50" plasma Panasonic 1080p and the picture are fitting in Full Screen not bars from start to finish, including warning logos to credits. This movie has the same aspect ratio as my, the only thing I havent try is play my discs on his TV.

If you do, I suspect you'll see black bars with your movies on his TV.

Dinosaur: 1.85:1 aspect ratio

The 3 movies you mentioned in your first post are either 2.35:1 (Daggers) or 2.40:1 (TMNT and 300).

Refer back to edDv's post with the various aspect ratio examples.

[PC2K1]

edDV, Krispy Kritter, you both were right.

Thanks !! I purposely went and buy two Blu ray movie with 1:85:1 & 1:78:1 aspect ratio Galapagos (BBC) and Chicken Little aspect ratio and Yes! it did have a full Screen I like I wanted, my plasmas played in 1080i. I just wish if the player or TV would have a format decoder from 2:40:1 down to 1:85:1, that makes perfect sense. I now Understand what edDV was trying to tell me! Thanks Again!

[guns1inger]

I don't think you do, and I don't think you have your TV or player set up correctly. 300 should have black bars top and bottom when playing, be it on DVD or Blu-Ray. If it doesn't, you have not set your equipment up correctly to watch the images. This is not a 1080i/p vs 720p thing. This is not a plasma vs LCD thing. This is not a DVD vs BluRay thing. This is a simple matter of reading the manual and setting up the player to send out the correct image, and the TV to display it.