NO MORE DROPPED FRAMES(CONT)

[eclipsed4evr]

Ok, to help you guys help me on my dropped frame issue, i will try to go into detail on my sytem and what i have running on it. My probs are this: I can cap at single frame (ie x 240) at 29.97 fps with either Virtual dub or MMC with NO dropped frames. If i up to full frame (ie, x480) @ 29.97fps, i get about 1 frame drop per second of video capture. My goals are to make VCd's out of VHS tapes and my sony vhs-c digital camcorder. I am very picky and want the best picture possibe, so i want to cap in full frame. Here is my configuration. Compaq Presario bought new about 1 year ago.

700 MHZ Amd Duron
Upgraded 320 MB of Ram
VIA chipset(I don't know what # though, how can i find out?)
20 G 5400 ata66 HD( not EXACTLY sure on rpm or ata 66 but most likely)
40 G Western D ata 100 7200 RPM HD for my vid captures
I made the drive to ata 66 through WD's software, i was advised to match HD speeds(didn't help by swithing from 100 to 66 either)
Windows ME
ATI Rage Pro Fury card w/ video in/out. 32 MB of internal RAM
MMC 7.1(or whatever came on bundled CD)
VIA latency PCI patch installed
VFW wrapper installed
Latest ATI Driver for my card # 4.13.7192(other driver didn't cap x480 avi
Direct X 8.0 W/ video capture update
ATI MMC prgrams loaded- video in, cd player, and video cd

I have both HD's on the primary IDE buss, the 40G as the slave drive.
I have tried to separate the HD's onto separate IDE busses, that didn't help either. I have every thing clean from the HD, completley empty and defragged. No system tray progs running that isn't nec. Both MMC and v-dub drop about the same amount of frames in full resolution. My set up is this. 352x480 @29.97 fps wave audio 172K/s, using HUffy codec. Dropping about 1 frame per second. 352x240 no frame drop. My processor @ x480 is about at 60% cpu usage. 720x480 the cpu is 100%
Processor @ x240 is no more than 20% which no frame drop.

Now Bstansberry mentioned the 4in1 via update, what is this and where can i get it? What else should i try. I am believing that i have insufficient proccessor power, but you got yours to work and we have similar systems. I have heard that my ATI rage has the same chipset as the 128 pro, and the AIW cards , not sure if its true tho. So now what should i try??? MMC 7.5 and via update? where can i get these and how do i find out my VIA cipet # such ass 133 or whatever????
and for the help,
a big TIA !!!

[Bstansbury]

Eclipsed4evr.

I see several things I would change in your system. First off, I know that you have been reading my orginal post "No more dropped Frames", since you posted to replys to it,...but one of the main points of my post was to get off of MMC 7.1. You asked where you could get MMC 7.5,...and I had put all of this information in the orginal post. Here it is again,.. but you should also go backand re-read the orginal for more instructions.

http://www.ati-news.de/HTML/Download/software.html

Also, you have to get DirectX8.1 from Microsoft,.. and you need to get the MMC Registry tool from stinky. I know that I've put that info in one of my post.

Once you have all this installed correctly, I believe you can forget about Vdub and just use MMC 7.5 (Registry tool will help you setup MMC to capture very good quality VCD format in MPEG-1 directly from VCR).

From looking at the results you already get at various frame sizes with the old version of 7.1,.. I would say you're doing great. You just need to get updated,... to MMC7.5, etc. Also, run AuxSetup from Vdub and run the Benchmark test to see exactly how your hard disks perform on your current busses.

You mentioned you're "Not sure" about what the performance is of your 20 GB drive (ATA 33MBs or 66MBs). It is very simple to restart your system and watch the Bios as it loads,... It will show you what it has set for each of the hard disk drives,...i.e., if they are 33 or 66 or 100.

I have a Western Digital ATA 100 but I can't use it there since my Motherboard willnot support ATA 100. Also, I remember the problems I had when I first set up my Western Digital device. I think the software that comes with it stinks and may have a problem with Windows,... so when I installed it, I did not use their software and just used windows drivers. At least I know they are compatible.

I see that you have done a lot of things in your quest to get good capture,..but you bypassed the most important ones up front. Go get MMC 7.5 and start over.

[eclipsed4evr]

Bstansbury,

Thank you for the reply! Your input is greatly appreciated! I will try those things you mentioned tonight, and see where that takes me. Another question. After i install those other essentials, do i still need the wrapper program to use v-dub? How is your capture quality when using MMC and mpeg 1 directly? My biggest issue is video quality, and i don't really care how much time it takes me to convert and cap video. thanks again,
Matt

[Bstansbury]

The capture quality seems to be very good. Since it is the VCD compliant format that Stinky has provided for everyone,.. I don't think it can get any better with on the fly capture to MPEG-1. Now if you have the time and disk space to capture full lossless AVI or JPEG at 720x480, then process it through several programs to filter it, edit it, reverse telecine it, resize it, re-sync it, and then compress it into compliant VCD, you "May" get a better quality.

However, I think the best way to get quality is to start off with good quality. If you are talking about a standard VHS source,.... start off by being successful with MMC 7.5 and capture directly to VCD format in MPEG-1. Once you've mastered this, and learned to crawl,..then maybe you can get on you feet and try to walk. :P

[Sulik]

MMC 7.5 has a built-in inverse telecine -> check "Inverse 3:2 pulldown" in the custom VCD preset. If you're capturing a film source, it can greatly increase your quality (and save CPU as well).
Make sure you set the motion estimation quality to 100% if your cpu is fast enough.

[lewisp]

Guys,

I just need to check before I kick off a 43MB download....

....will MMC 7.5 work with my WinTV card?

[ggtronic]

hello bstansbury

i 'm almost able to capture 100% compliant Svcd
( see movie sample topic ) , directly from mmc 7,1
with no frame drop ( mpeg2,480x480 , 2,4mb/sec )

the file play directly in my apexad1500 on a data base
burned cd

but nero wont recognize it as a Svcd

is mm7.5 fix that probleme ( direct Svcd capture )

[Bstansbury]

I think that the problem is with Nero not with MMC. I have seen several posts that VCD files won't encode in Nero. Since I don't use Nero to burn, I didn't pay much attention to the post.

Do a search in "Capture Forum" looking for Nero. That may find it for you.

Also, for all those that have thanked me for some of the information I have posted on this forum,... You are welcome,.... but the new answer is, I don't know anything about what fixes are inside of MMC 7.5. All I know is what I've seen others in the past say about 7.5. It has worked for me and many other people. IF you've noticed, the download for MMC 7.5 comes from a WEB site in Germany where they are developing "Rage". I don't know what the connection is between the German lab and the people at ATI is,... but there is no official release yet of MMC 7.5, or any documentation (that I know of) that explains even what it is supposed to fix. In my opinion,.. it is a "Leaked" beta version.

Having said all that,... I continue to use it. Hopefully I won't get anymore questions on this web site about what I know about it!!!!

I'm always glad to share what I know or what I've tried,... but I have also seen a lot of people post things on this web site which are not correct, but are just their "Best guess",...yet they state things as if they were FACTs. I don't want to be know as one of those guys. Where I used to work they called that kind of information,..."Bad poop",... or B.S.

I really think this forum is the best thing that has happened to Video and us "Newbie's". I wish I could find a forum like this one that delt with problems on Windows software,... now wouldn't that be great,... a place to ask a question and get some real answers.

[eclipsed4evr]

Well i got everything installed and going, and to be honest, its not any better for frame drops on full frame capture(720x480 HUFFy wav audio in V-dub or MMC 7.5. I did use the Registry tool, its kinda neat, but does most of the same functions as the 7.5 version of MMC already, just a few more versatile tweeks, but really doesn't help my image quality. Straight mpeg1 capture 352x240 @ 1.05 bitrate, in my opinion, looks like crap! It's not TERRIBLE, but i think i can get much better. Thats why i'm not happy until i get great quality, thats what i am after. Anything under full frame capture, I'm perfect, no frame drop, and OK looking captures. But I still see too many artifacts with half frame capture, somewhat blocky and unclear. Thats wht i want full frame capture and then de-interlace and resize. I've tried all kinds of video input, and I'm just not happy with the way it looks. Its def not like VHS. Fairly close, but not VHS. I'v played with all kinds of settings, bitrates, resolutions in both V-dub and MMC, but still not satisfyed. I have come to the conclusion, that if i want full frame capture w/o lots of frame drop, i will need to upgrade my hardware. Faster processor(the Duron really wasn't designed for video capture, from what the computer geeks tell me<I want an ATHALON), fast drives, and a good software program. I still think its a problem with the VIA chipset, and how it lags in its bus speed. Maybe not, but its my best guess. Half frame caps will have to do for now, until i can build my new video machine! Thanks to all for the help!

[ggtronic]

hello Eclipsed4evr
as far as i know , strait Vcd (352x240)will ever be worst than Vhs
( look at video comparaisons ) , you need Svcd to get better .
and i agree with your processor opinion (need 1gig+)

[Bstansbury]

Elipsed4evr. Congratulations. At least you got to the next page.

If you remember a few post ago, you couldn't capture squat. Now your yelling about 720x480 full res. Yes you still have a "medium to low speed" processor,... But look what you've learned.

As far as capturing VHS.... I believe it has an built in problem being compressed into MPEG. When you look at Vhs on your TV, and if you look very close, you will see each and every pixel dancing all the time. Trouble is they are moving at such a rate that your eyes don't see most of the changes, especially at 30 fps. If you understand the algorithums used in MEPG, the very small noise or color fluctuation that you see in VHS will just drive MPEG codec's crazy. Guess what the primary element is in compression,... Let's take a look into the mind of an MPEG compressor.....

{ what was the image at the last "I" frame, and what just changed. OK,.. now that I know what just changed, I'll put most of my bit rate into duplicating that and just repeat those parts of the picture that didn't change from the last image. Now since that worked so good, lets do it again, and again, and again. OK, now it's time for a "P" frame,.. let's look back at the last "I" frame and try to guess where this picture is going,... OK, put out your best guess,.. Now let's see what changed and max out the bit rate on that,... Uh oh,... it's time for an "I" frame. Gosh, nothing looks like I thought it would,... Oh Well,... let's try the same thing again and see if it works this time.}

The reason that DVD quality is so good it that they use the absolute best quality in,... D1. And these days, that is probably obsolete,... Now they have totally Digital High RES. systems,.. and the "Mother of all computers" to compress it into MPEG-2, and all the time in the world to do it.

You can get better quality by capturing in JPEG and then pushing all of it through filters to get rid of all the artifacts you can before you compress it to anything. This will "Soften" the picture but at least it won't drive MPEG encoders up the wall. If you find anything that does a better job on VHS stuff you better patent it right away. Or at least let the rest of us know about it.

[leebo]

eclipsed4evr,
By now you've heard suggestions from everyone and their cousin.

I can't promise this is your problem, but it's my opinion that your cpu is fine, but your motherboard is not good for video capture.

Compaq has a nasty habit (as does HP) of tweaking motherboards to the point where they exhibit too many conflicts with aftermarket hardware.

If your board does use a VIA chipset, you can find drivers at via.com or viahardware.com.

Check also that your capture card is not sharing IRQ's, and, like someone else pointed out, that your hard drives are formated with Windows, not third party software.

I've captured w/o problems using a CPU slower than your's.

A friend bought a capture card for his HP computer, and after doing everything I know (from years of video capturing and computer tweaking, I could not get it to work. Turned out the capture card manufacturer had it posted as "incompatable" with that HP motherboard.

I recently bought a Radeon AIW card and built a new system for it. It couldent capture at all. I had to change to a SIS chipset motherboard and it works now.

[Bstansbury]

Leebo,

I like your post,... good information. One question,... when you switched motherboards,... you probably also went to a new processor and higher performance memory, etc.... now fess up... If your captures are so great,... what is the one thing that you would point to that enabled that,..or is it just the combination of many things. :P

[leebo]

Leebo,

One question,... when you switched motherboards,... you probably also went to a new processor and higher performance memory, etc.... now fess up... If your captures are so great,...

Nope. Only changed the MB. I'm still using the same cpu and ram. And my captures are not perfect, though I believe it's due to the limitations of the ATI Radeon card (and the fact that I have another system with hardware mpeg capturing who's quality blows away the ATI card).

But re-reading your original post, I'm not so sure that one drop per second requires a change in hardware (though I still don't like Compaq for anything but a stock setup).

You are capturing from VHS tapes. This is not the best quality of signal for capture.

What happens if you capture directly from cable (or Satellite)? If you can, try going directly from your cable box to your computer. Check the number of drops and report back.

[eclipsed4evr]

Well guys, i appreciate the responses, but to tell you the truth, it doesn't matter what kind of source i use to capture. I have tried my vhs vcr, cable tv, and my sony handycam HI 8 camcorder, and all have given me at least one frame drop per second at any resolution above 352x480. 720x480? FORGET IT! I see some who are capping full frame with no probs, but they are using the PAL format which is only 25 fps, instead of my using ntsc, 29.97 fps. Obviously, to cap more frams per second, it takes more of a toll on the hardware, which i believe is the problem. I do agree with vhs not being good quality to start off with, but I know i can get CLOSE to the original copy. Thats all i want. I understand it won't be exactly the same quality, but i personally cant tolerate blurry and blocky artifacts in my captures, hence why i want full frame capture. I am on my way to this perfection, and for only really doing this for about a month or less now, not bad at all! Hell, i didn't even know about VCD's or that they could play in my DVD player then! Haha! I've talked with several computer geeks(which i'm trying to become), and they say its a hard drive problem. Get a RAID setup, and all will be fine. I would have to agree from what i know about computers so far. For doing this for only the short time i have, i must say that my capping results are pretty damn good, but i want perfection! I prob should be making SVCD's, but unfortunately, my DVD player won't play them. It will play VCD's up to 2.5 bitrate, but that leaves me with only like 30 minutes or so of video on a disk. Hmmm, maybe its time for a DVD burner! Haha, anyone wanna donate some funds!

[Bstansbury]

Eclipsed4evr..

There are several other people coming to the conclusion that they will never get their VHS quality back by encoding to VCD,.. or any other format. As evidence of this,.. read the new post on this forum about "No way to get VHS Quality..." I believe it is really true.

Having said that, I also agree with some of your previoius post that you can get "Acceptable" quality. You mentioned that MEPG-1 VCD format looks like crap,... but there are some DVD's that will play SVCD, XSVCD, and you can drive the bit rate up on them. You mentioned trying to get 720x480 format. If you are working with VHS which is 320x240 it is a waste of capture bit rate to use 720x480, and even then the quality would not be that good.

Try capturing in MPEG-1 352x240 at much higher bit rates. I have done it at up to 8.0 at VBR without any dropes or glitches in the output. This was using TV cable data in. You know that these days this is almost as bad as VHS and sometimes worse for MPEG,.. because most of the current channels are already sending TV data using MPEG uplink and down links to get from coast to coast. This video TV data has all kinds of little artifacts in it,..... which makes it very bad for compression.

One last point,... in one of your posts you indicated that you had everything installed and things were running. Do you have a motherboard with the VIA chip,... and have you downloaded and installed their latest 4 in 1 driver set. It would make a "big" difference.

[lewisp]

What annoys me most is that VirtualDub gives me jerky results, which I assumes is because it uses the VFWWDM drivers. If I use my normal WintTV software the picture is perfect.

Can VirtualDub be configured to use the WinTV drivers somehow?

[eclipsed4evr]

Yeah i agree that capping vhs in 720x480 is a waste, but some have said it still yeilds a cleaner output, so i don't know. I have downloaded the latest via chipset driver, and to no avail, it didn't help the least bit. I'm still in the beginning stages of video capture, and have learned so much from all of you guys already. I'm gonna keep playing around with it though, and i have tried capping 352x240 mpeg at around 6,8, and 10 bitrates, which looks VERY good, but my dvd player will play only up to 2.5 bitrate which is better than standard vcd rate of 1.05, but then i can only get about 30 min or less of vid on a cd. Ahhh!!! oh well, with effort, comes great rewards...it will just take more knowledge, and patience, and money!
Thanks yall!!!

[Bstansbury]

It's been awhile since I made any comments on this subject,..I've really been hitting the books trying to get to the bottom of all of this. I don't have the final answer yet but I feel I'm getting closer. I'm having more trouble keeping things running than trying to capture. Here is some new
information to thing about. Also, if you take this info and start your own search, maybe one of us will come up with the answer. If I could get VirtualDub to work for more than 1 pass, I think I would have this resolved.

Everybody wants to capture VHS or TV and put it to VCD format. The problem is that VHS/TV data is interlaced,... we all know that be we have been ignorning it. I've found several sites that have really great information, starting from the basics of TV all the way through DVD's. If you want to start reading, this WEB site will provide you 220 pages of detailed information;

http://www.geocities.com/lukesvideo/


We've been taking in TV interlaced data by capturing it in AVI, then pushing it through an MPEG-1 compressor. First off, because the final VCD format is 352x240, a lot of people have been capturing at that frame size. Well, since TV signals are 640x480 interlaced, they are really just two fields at 60 fields per second interlace. The first field is only 240 lines and so is the second. When we capture at 240 lines we are tossing away 1/2 of all of the TV information. REmember, this is all time going by,.. field 1 is a snap shot of the orginal picture taken for 1/120 of a second, then the second field is the other half of time in the 60 fields per second. We just dropped it on the cutting floor. The result is some very fast jerky data into the MPEG encoder. This makes it worse.

Finally we encode it to a VCD disk and play it in a DVD player, which converts the video again back to a new 640x480 (magnified) signal which is interlaced for TV display. If you read the guides at the WEB site above and search for INterlaced, you'll see picture that demonstrate the problem.

So what is the answer,... capture at 640x480 if you can. Then Deinterlace the file, which gets ride of the interlace shift in time and "Blurrs" the to field pictures together to produce a progressive scan image. The idea is to also filter the captured video for noise, etc. at the same time. The output is then a clean picture that is ready for compression into MEPG-1 and resizing down to 352x240 at 29.97 fps.
In this way we are giving the MPEG-1 encoder the best chance of encoding without introducing artifacts.

My eyes still hurt from going through about 6 web sites and reading all 220 pages of "Lukes guides",... but there is a lot of information there. ONe other problem is that since my hardware is not good enough to capture at 640x480, I have been trying to capture at other rates, as other forums have suggested, such as 352x480,.. which at least does capture both TV fields. Now the problem is trying to get TMPGen to encode and delinterlace and resize on the same pass. I can do the deinterlace and resize to 352x240 but something is screwed up in the aspect ratio.

One other piece of information about capture. IF you need more performance on your system, and you're capturing in AVI, YUY2, select Huffyuv compression. This will drop the data rate about 2:1, and everyone says this codec is "almost" lossless, so there should be no big loss of quality. The small pieces of video that I have done look great but it is hard to tell since I can't get them into the right aspect ratio.

The point of this long post is that to get the best quality out of our VHS or TV captures, we need to get the pictures as perfect as we can "BEFORE" we compress to MPEG-1.

I hope you have the time to read Lukes guides and digest. There is also a lot of usful stuff on Doom9's web site. One last thing,.. if anyone knows how to fix my problems with VirtualDub, please send me a e-mail.
I've loaded it and stripped it off my system 2 times now, and no more. I can run it one time successfully to encode at the 352x480 with Huffyuv compression, but the next time I run it, the cpatrue bit rate doubles or triples and "Bang" it runs wild. The wierd thing is that if you look at the CPU utilization, it is at 3-4%,....nothing. This tells me the program is stuck in an internal loop and the file size written is very small.???

That's all the news from Lake Wildwood,... where all the women are strong, the men are good looking,... and all the childern are above average.

Bud

[Mordant]

Shouldn't that be "lake Woebegone"?

Prairie Home Companion?

[Bstansbury]

I used to think there was a "Lake Woebegone", Harrison made it sound so real. The stories he tells kind of reminds me of the stories I read on this WEB page... :P