29.976 to 25fps (removing pulldown from a NTSC converted PAL film transfer)

[ecc]

How do you remove pulldown from an NTSC 29.976fps conversion of a PAL 25fps transfer of a film (23.976fps)? Would that get rid of the ghosting and other artifacts caused by the conversion in the first place or is there no way to undo that damage? I am asking regarding a film whose only available OAR transfer was converted to NTSC from a PAL master (the only avaiable PAL releases have all been cropped to 1.78:1 from 1.66:1).

Also, does the AssumeFPS Avisynth script speed up or slow down the framerate or does it add or remove frames (I'm asking this regarding a PAL transfer that I'd like to slow down to 23.976 as the PAL audio speedup is much more painfully noticeable than in most other PAL DVDs I've seen).

[Soopafresh]

Look on Doom9 for a script called MRestore . That'll be your best chance of fixing it, removing blends, etc. Good script.

[manono]

Or RePAL, which was developed for this sort of thing (if I understand you correctly). And MRestore is good.

does the AssumeFPS Avisynth script speed up or slow down the framerate or does it add or remove frames

AssumeFPS keeps the same number of frames, so it speeds up or slows down. ChangeFPS adds or removes frames. Using AssumeFPS requires the audio be stretched/adjusted to keep it synched with the video.

And there was never any pulldown applied to those things in the first place.

[ecc]

I've found mention of mrestore at doom9 in some threads but not an actual download.

How are repal and restore24?

[manono]

MRestore is part of the R_pack:

r_pack.zip

You'll get Restore24 going only with great difficulty. I'd suggest keeping away from it until you are more experienced. RePAL is easy to use:

LeakKernelBob(Order=1)#or some other smart bobber
RePAL()

and can be found here:

http://avisynth.org/warpenterprises/

[ecc]

How does this look?

sample script:

LoadPlugin("c:\program files\avisynth 2.5\plugins\rePal.dll")
mpeg2source("...")
complementparity()
bob() *some sort of bob, i'll have to look at what's available or what I can download*
repal()
assumefps(23.976) *the film was sped up to 25fps, right?*

also, what would one use for slowing down the audio (I'm guessing from 25 to 23.976 since the audio would have remained the same sped up to 25fps when the transfer was converted to 29.976 from a sped up 25fps)? BeSweetGUI doesn't seem to work well for me. I have BeLight but got distorted results (I've read that that the AC3 may not have been propertly demuxed even though the original seems to play well).

[manono]

You don't need ComplementParity. I think it even screws it up, but I'm no expert on that. If you want to get fancy, then something like this will be better:

Ord = last.getparity() ? 1 : 0
LeakKernelBob(Order=Ord)
RePAL()

Don't use the built-in Bob command. If you want to use LeakKernelBob, then you'll find the LeakKernelDeint filter at that same WarpEnterprises link above. Or you can use Yadif(Order=1,Mode=1) or TDeint(Mode=1).

assumefps(23.976) *the film was sped up to 25fps, right?*

No, it's on NTSC DVDs at 24.975fps. RePAL gives you back 24.975fps. MRestore will give you 25fps at default settings. Depends on which unblender you use and with what settings.

also, what would one use for slowing down the audio (I'm guessing from 25 to 23.976 since the audio would have remained the same sped up to 25fps when the transfer was converted to 29.976 from a sped up 25fps)?

I convert to WAV first at 23.976fps using BeSweet, stretching the audio at the same time. To get it to AC3 from there, you can use Aften with one of its GUIs (free), or some commercial AC3 encoder, if you have one.

[Soopafresh]

Yadif(Order=1,Mode=-1) - That's a good one. Fast, too.

Try both RePAL and Mrestore. Compare things like smoothness of fast movement, reduction of artifacts, etc. Both apps work amazingly fast, considering the magic they perform.

[Alex_ander]

I'd also test different tools to choose the proper one for the case.
RePAL is just for reversing one particular method of PAL=>NTSC conversion (the one that uses blended fields in the process).
In other case (pulldown with 3:2:3:2:2 guidance) Decomb's Telecide(guide=3).Decimate(6) might be better but there can be alternate pattern (guide=3 won't work and will output with interlace artifacts) or the case where RePAL is the best.

MRestore (if I remember right) adds duplicate frames (maybe it can be turned off, don't know) to get 25 instead of 24.975 and that's not what you want since you anyway plan to assume 23.976 in the end.

[ecc]

HCencoder does not recognize the 24.975 framerate as DVD compliant. When I add assumefps(23.976), it asks me to apply 3:2 pulldown.

I'll try those plugins on the PAL>NTSC transfer. Meanwhile, I encoded part of another PAL film whose English track sounded noticeably sped-up (this also being the second part of the PAL>NTSC issue once I find which plugin works correctly).

this was the script:
mpeg2source("c:\la_chiesa_scn\video_ts\vts_01_1.d2 v")
assumefps(23.976)
lanczosresize(720,480)
converttoyv12()

What option should I choose for AC3 to WAV in Belight? DD-Wave or regular WAV? I did DD-Wave and re-encoded it to ac3 in AftenGUI and added it to the 23.976 clip with and without pulldown and both were out of sync with warbly sound. I used the ImagoMPEG-Muxer to multiplex the audio and video. Could that be the problem?

[manono]

HCencoder does not recognize the 24.975 framerate as DVD compliant.

So what? It's not. Load the 24.975fps and 720x480 RePAL'd .avs into HCenc, encode without any kind of pulldown and without letting HCEnc make it DVD compliant, and when done, apply DGPulldown with the Custom box checked, and 24.975->29.97fps filled in. Then it'll be DVD compliant. If you use the audio unchanged, it'll be in synch.

When I add assumefps(23.976), it asks me to apply 3:2 pulldown.

So, do it in the encoder or do it afterwards. Doesn't make any difference.

You want a regular WAVE (PCM Wave), not DD-WAVE.

Could that be the problem?

If you're creating a DVD, why are you using an MPEG muxer rather than an authoring program? Try Muxman. Did you slow the audio from 24.975 to 23.976fps if using the AssumeFPS(23.976) one, and apply pulldown? Did you use the audio unchanged if using the 24.975fps one with pulldown applied for 24.975->29.97fps?

[45tripp]

So what? It's not. Load the 24.975fps and 720x480 RePAL'd .avs into HCenc, encode without any kind of pulldown and without letting HCEnc make it DVD compliant,

You can't.
I don't think any mpeg2 encoder will let you encode a file with a non compliant framerate (23.976, 25, 29.97).
You'll have to use assumefps(25) to get HC working.
Then you can pulldown 24.975->29.97.

[Alex_ander]

You'll have to use assumefps(25) to get HC working.

So will HC refuse to encode the given 24.975fps as 25fps? CCE wouldn't complain here and would behave as if 25fps were assumed in AviSynth.

[manono]

I just checked, and (as usual) you're right, 45tripp. You don't have the problem in CCE because you have to choose a framerate to encode to. So, if using RePAL which gives you 24.975fps, add AssumeFPS(25) at the end of the script if using HCEnc, and then apply DGPulldown for 24.975->29.97fps when done. Thanks for the correction.

So will HC refuse to encode the given 24.975fps as 25fps?

Yep, as I found out when testing. It errors out immediately.

[Soopafresh]

Just try Mrestore. Pretty please. With sugar on top.

[ecc]

The mrestore I downloaded as part of that rpack zip is an avs file. Do I copy that into my script? I also downloaded the masktools zip that is also need with mrestore.

The assumefps(25) and/or 3:2 pulldown with unaltered ac3 will probably work for the PAL>NTSC project but what about the other PAL project that I want to slow down to 23.976 so that the voices don't have that annoying high pitch? I'm familiar enough with the film to know its not supposed to sound like that but since the disc is Italian I'm guessing most viewers could care less about the "faulty" English track, I probably couldn't convert the fantastic Italian DTS track with free software.

[manono]

Hi-

The assumefps(25) and/or 3:2 pulldown...

It's pulldown, but it's not 3:2 pulldown.

what about the other PAL project that I want to slow down to 23.976 so that the voices don't have that annoying high pitch?

I've done that before using all freeware, following the procedure I outlined before. Did you try it again, this time saving to the regular PCM WAV before using Aften?

The way I use MRestore is to rename the .avs as .avsi and stick it into the AviSynth Plugins directory. That way it gets loaded automatically and you don't have to import it into the script. You'll still have to load the required plugins and add the MRestore command to the script. Which is exactly why I prefer to use RePAL whenever possible, and also recommend its use to rookies. Don't get me wrong. MRestore is good - very good - although I'm not convinced it's any better than RePAL.

[ecc]

Did you try it again, this time saving to the regular PCM WAV before using Aften?

Yes. The track was nice and clear but the time/file size did not change. I know I had 25.000 to 23.976 framerate conversion checked off in the options for BeLight. I'm not sure what went wrong.

Also, what's the difference between what was done to get these interlaced, artifact-y, ghosting PAL>NTSC transfers and performing 24.975>29.97 pulldown?

I have yet to get mrestore to work. I specified the location of the file in the script but then it said that one of the commands within the mrestore script does not exist.

[manono]

I know I had 25.000 to 23.976 framerate conversion checked off in the options for BeLight.

I've never used the BeLight GUI, but always the BeSweet one. Don't know if that makes a difference or not, though. But my size is always larger and the time longer after doing a PAL2NTSC audio conversion. And if you add in AssumeFPS(23.976) to the script, you'll want to slow the audio from 24.975 to 23.976fps also (not 25->23.976), as that's the original framerate after RePAL. What you did, if it works, will make the audio out-of-synch by a few seconds by the end of the movie.

Also, what's the difference between what was done to get these interlaced, artifact-y, ghosting PAL>NTSC transfers and performing 24.975>29.97 pulldown?

Even though it's not necessary to do it that way, often when a PAL source is converted to NTSC, they take the 25fps source (complete with the higher pitched audio), field blend it to 29.97fps and reinterlace it. There are other ways to do the conversion, all of them better. One is to do what you want to do. They's take the 25fps source and just slow it down to 23.976fps, encode it as progressive 23.976fps and apply 3:2 pulldown to output 29.97fps. Another way, not as good as that one, but still miles ahead of field blending, is to take that 25fps source, hard telecine it to 29.97fps and encode it for interlaced 29.97fps. That would be similar to having pulldown applied to a 25fps source, except this time you're encoding the interlaced 29.97fps output. I've seen a few DVDs done like that. And another way, one that's only been done by hobbiests like ourselves, is to encode for 25fps (or 24.975 in the case of a RePAL'd DVD) and apply DGPulldown afterwards for 25->29.97fps (or 24.975->29.97fps). That's a soft telecine. It was encoded as progressive 25fps (or 24.975fps) and stored on the DVD the same way, and only the flagging tells how to output 29.97fps.

[ecc]

And if you add in AssumeFPS(23.976) to the script, you'll want to slow the audio from 24.975 to 23.976fps also (not 25->23.976), as that's the original framerate after RePAL.

24.975 is the framerate after repal but wasn't the PAL video and audio before its initial field-blended conversion 25fps?

I will try BeSweetGUI with the AC3 to WAV and then WAV to AC3 in AftenGUI.

[45tripp]

I recommend you try Behappy
http://www.box.net/shared/nkihizx1dh
Utilise avisynth audio editing with aften encoding.

(required: net framework 2.0 and avisynth 2.56 or greater)
Open ac3 in behappy using ac3source(drc).
select timestretch,
select aften encoder

You mentioned wrong pitch

Export avisynth script from behappy.
find timestretch line and replace tempo with rate
Import avisynth script into behappy with avisynth import set,
and disable processing.
Encode

(can also use it to import dts and encode to ac3, there are no free dts encoders I know of)

[Alex_ander]

24.975 is the framerate after repal but wasn't the PAL video and audio before its initial field-blended conversion 25fps?

Since a regular (periodical) pattern is used at conversion (same as 25=>30, although some fields used for combining into frames are prepared by blending adjacent PAL source frames), the video/audio should have been adjusted to 24.975 for getting 29.97 (rather than 30). So the audio should be in synch with 24.975 video after inverse conversion by RePAL (until you assume a new value to restore film framerate and original audio). In case your video were not film-sourced (e.g. originally a PAL TV source) you could apply direct 24.975=>29.97 pulldown without audio adjustment.

[ecc]

here's my repal script for the one where i'm not adjusting the audio on:

loadplugin("c:\program files\avisynth 2.5\plugins\tdeint\tdeint.dll")
loadplugin("c:\program files\avisynth 2.5\plugins\repal.dll")
mpeg2source("d:\dvd\video_ts\vts_01_1.d2v")
tdeint(mode=1)
repal()
crop(8,42,-6,-42)
bicubicresize(660,480)
addborders(30,0,30,0)
assumefps(25)
converttoyv12()

i demuxed the first chapter and ran it through hcenc with this script and then did the 24.975 to 29.97 pulldown and the audio stayed in sync. as you can see, i'm converting a 4:3 letterbox transfer to 16:9 as well. it's a 1.66:1 transfer so I came up with the resize by capturing a 1.66:1 anamorphic frame from another film at video source size and cropped off the borders to see how many pixels were lost horizontally and then compensated for it by adding borders (Fit2disc suggested resizing to 640x480 and adding 40 pixel borders on each side but that output did not look like other anamorphic 1.66:1 discs I've seen).

the output does not look that much softer than the input; baring in mind that the pre-repal input had interlacing and ghosting that seems absent from the output (I'm starting to suspect that the US company did a great disservice to a film of this stature and perhaps used a tape master as their source - the noise around the subtitles in both input and output suggests to me (though my eye is not that well trained) that the subtitles were on the print itself and not burned into the video). the source may have more flaws than are worth fixing but it is the only subtitled source in the correct aspect ratio. i do not know if the unsubtitled French disc is OAR but even if it was all other English subtitled sources are burned in subtitle streams (and cropped to 16:9) so that avenue is pretty much out.

any suggestions about the script before i give it a go?

[manono]

The script looks OK to me.

[ecc]

Okay. Success with the particular title I was working on before as well as another one. However, I've had problems with other titles I know to be PAL-NTSC conversions. With the successful ones, the framerate has read as 24.975 before assumefps(25). The problem is that on some titles I've done scripts for, before assumefps(25), the framerate shows up as 12. something frames per second. Assuming 25fps with that results in jerky playback (though the PAL-NTSC conversion artifacts are gone). Does anyone know why this occurs? I don't think I've missed something in the repal script (I've even copied the text from scripts of ones I've had success with into new avs files with the same results for certain projects).

[manono]

Does anyone know why this occurs?

If you wound up with a framerate half of 24.975fps (maybe 12.4875fps?), then rather than bobbing before RePAL, you just deinterlaced. So, one way you may have screwed it up was by applying LeakKernelDeint(Order=1), rather than LeakKernelBob(Order=1), as you should have.

If that's not it, then maybe post a script for a conversion that shows as 12.xxxfps in VDub(Mod).