VHS to DVD Problems

[garyrjas]

I have about 20 old VHS home movie tapes (pre-1991) that will not record properly to DVD. I have a couple of different VHS players I can use to transfer, but here is the problem. The only player I have that shows a clear picture without flag waving is a GoVideo unit. However, when I attempt to transfer the video to a DVD video recorder, the DVD copy shows flag waving even though I can watch the video and it looks fine directly from the VCR to the TV. I tried a clarifier that removes copyguard to see if that would make the flag waving go away but it didn't work. I have a Panasonic video recorder/vhs combo. The Vhs player on the combo unit shows flag waving, which is why I hooked up the GoVideo directly into the input of the DVD recorder (but it didn't work, I still get flag waving on the picture. I've tried tracking but that doesn't work. This is an actual picture distortion that appears on playback even though I can watch the video VHS tape through the GoVideo unit fine. What can I do?

[DereX888]

What is this "flag waving"?

[garyrjas]

This is when the picture shifts from left to right causing a horizontal type of distortion.

[mpack]

This is when the picture shifts from left to right causing a horizontal type of distortion.

I think you are referring to "tearing", caused by the timing of a digital video capture device being misaligned with the timing of an analog video source. A time base corrector should fix this.

Old analog TVs are not subject to this problem which is probably why the signal looks ok on your (CRT?) TV.

[garyrjas]

Actually the interesting thing is that it is distorted on my old 20 year old RCA picture tv and my old projection analog TV but is not distored on my daughters LCD color monitor (this is a combo monitor for a computer that also has an analog tv tuner).

[davideck]

A VCR with internal TBC or a DVD Recorder with better TBC performance would reduce image distortion due to horizontal timing errors. Many DVD Recorders and external TBCs provide little if any improvement, but there are exceptions. The Philips 3575/6 DVD Recorder is one example.

My LCD Monitor also does a great job of eliminating horizontal timing errors on its analog inputs. It is both a blessing and a curse in that it provides stable images but also hides various timing errors that can show up later in the DVD transfer.

[garyrjas]

Thanks for the info. You don't think an external TBC is a good idea? I've seen some used ones on Ebay for around $100-150. I tried one of those copyright eliminators but it didn't do anything. I'll look for the recorder you mentioned also. Funny thing, I need it for about 20 tapes then I will probably never need it again.

[davideck]

YMMV. I would rank the performance of my TBC devices from best to worst as follows;

1 JVC Digital Camcorder pass through
2 JVC HR-S9600 / 7600 VCR
3 Panasonic AG-1970 VCR
4 Philips DVD Recorder
5 Toshiba DVD Recorder
6 FOR-A 300 TBC/Frame Synchronizer
7 DataVideo TBC-1000 / TBC-3000 TBC/Frame Synchronizer
8 JVC / LiteOn DVD Recorders

Here are some image comparisons;
https://forum.videohelp.com/topic289311-60.html#1450793

[garyrjas]

Thanks for the info. I guess the camcorder pass through allows you to connect an output into the input of the camcorder and then out to another source using rca or other types of connectors. I need a new camcorder anyway, maybe I should just try that. Thanks again, Gary

[SingSing]

YMMV. I would rank the performance of my TBC devices from best to worst as follows;

1 JVC Digital Camcorder pass through
2 JVC HR-S9600 / 7600 VCR
3 Panasonic AG-1970 VCR
4 Philips DVD Recorder
5 Toshiba DVD Recorder
6 FOR-A 300 TBC/Frame Synchronizer
7 DataVideo TBC-1000 / TBC-3000 TBC/Frame Synchronizer
8 JVC / LiteOn DVD Recorders

Here are some image comparisons;
https://forum.videohelp.com/topic289311-60.html#1450793

I am suprised you got "1. JVC Digital Camcorder pass through", is it possible that JVC did not tune to "Macrovision" in their digital camcorder ?

My expereince on getting best result on VHS to DVD, is either use a S-VHS VCR with noise reduction or an old VCR without macrovision for player back, and record with DVD recorder.

[garyrjas]

I've tried 3 different VCRs from 10 years old to new, and I get the same wavy picture. The only VCR that doesn't do it is the GoVideo Combo VCR recorder and DVD player, but when I hook it up to a DVD recorder (separately) the recorder doesn't correct what I'm seeing on the screen and copies a wavy picture.

[davideck]

I am suprised you got "1. JVC Digital Camcorder pass through", is it possible that JVC did not tune to "Macrovision" in their digital camcorder ?

I'm assuming that this is a timing error issue, not an MV issue. The JVC Camcorder pass through does not remove MV.

[garyrjas]

this stuff I have is over 20 yrs old. I made these VHS tapes originally on an old Panasonic deck that was a deck for an old stand alone camera and a separate tuner was used to charge the deck and tune analog TV stations.

[orsetto]

"Flag-waving" is caused by a variety of factors, almost none of which are curable with an external TBC box. This is only repairable by playing the tapes on a high-end VCR with built-in TBC, which functions differently from external TBCs. There are a number of such VCRs to choose from, all of which must be purchased on the second-hand market. The top four in handling flag waving are:

Panasonic AG-1980 (or its twin the AG-5710)
Mitsubishi HS-HD2000U D-VHS
JVC HR-S9600 / 7600
JVC HR-S9911

Any of these will help to a greater or lesser degree depending on the specific cause of the flagging. If you can't be bothered with trial and error, I can tell you in my experience the Panasonic AG1980 will fix anything you throw at it of this nature: I have yet to find a flagging or wavy distortion this unit will not straighten up. Each of these machines is optimized for slightly different tape problems and each adds some small image artifacts of its own. The AG1980 is not perfect for everything, but nothing beats it for fixing bent image problems. Depending on the tape, it may soften the image a small bit but thats a decent trade-off to be rid of severe flagging. It will also clean up the color and other picture noise, so the overall bargain should work in your favor. Do not confuse the AG1980 with its lookalike predecessor the AG1970: the 1970 doesn't do much for severe flagging, it is optimized to fix a different type of timing error that the 1980 can't fix (now you know why those of us with huge tape collections own three or four different playback VCRs).

Your DVD recorder can also be a factor in this: models made before late-2005 are more sensitive to tape errors than newer units.

[lordsmurf]

The Panasonic ES10 DVD recorder ranks as my #1 item to remove such errors. On pass-through only, do not use the machine to record.

[SingSing]

The Panasonic ES10 DVD recorder ranks as my #1 item to remove such errors. On pass-through only, do not use the machine to record.

Why not ?

[orsetto]

I forgot the Panasonic ES10 trick. This often works assuming you can still find one of these units, they are long discontinued. They were the bottom of Panasonics earlier line, when they broke most owners discarded them. They are pretty crappy recorders per se, optimized strictly for DVD-RAM media (they are terrible with DVD-R, very crude formatting). But even one with a broken drive will function as a good pass-thru stabilizer as LordSmurf advises. You might have to hunt for one of them, however. And if you have a great many tapes to transfer, you might find a high-grade VCR a more useful investment. (Of course if you see an ES10 for something like $40, grab it ).

[garyrjas]

Thanks for the info.

[lordsmurf]

The Panasonic ES10 DVD recorder ranks as my #1 item to remove such errors. On pass-through only, do not use the machine to record.

Why not ?

The Panasonic chipset in this machine sucks. It has grainy/blocky encode quality, like most other Panasonic machines. The luma/IRE still sucks, and then it likes to posterize the image. It does some of this on pass-through, but it's far worse on encode.

Remember this is RESTORATION, lesser of evils. The errors it adds are far less damaging than the ones it is removing.

The ES10 is more effective than any other DVD recorder (even other Panasonic machines), VCR or standalone device that I have experienced to date (and I've used a LOT of DVD equipment in the past 7-8 years). I use it as needed, when the other VCRs and devices fail to help.

I deal with a lot of bad tapes. I do the work other people cannot or do not want to mess with.

[DereX888]

...but when I hook it up to a DVD recorder (separately) the recorder doesn't correct what I'm seeing on the screen and copies a wavy picture.

and that is exactly why I never like nor recommend any standalone recorders, because what you see on the screen is not neccessary what you got recorded on the disc.
Its almost never like this (at least it never happened to me) that what you see could differ from you got captured on computer.
I have wasted myself once entire hour of recording on standalone just to discover choppy playback on the disc later. I need only one lesson to learn anything
(yes I know in your case it is because your tvset itself corrects the picture, but nevertheless with standalone recorders small errors like skipping few frames which causes slight audio desynch usually is never seen during recording but is clearly seen when you play such bad disc)


I've been waiting for multilaser standalone recorders to correct this (one laser to record, another one - on separate mechanism - to read it with a delay and display to tv) but the manufacturers rather make crap and try sell it for $30 than good devices for $100

[garyrjas]

Thanks for the info.

[orsetto]

...but when I hook it up to a DVD recorder (separately) the recorder doesn't correct what I'm seeing on the screen and copies a wavy picture.

and that is exactly why I never like nor recommend any standalone recorders, because what you see on the screen is not neccessary what you got recorded on the disc.
(

I have always had the reverse problem: endless obscure issues capturing to the PC, and much easier time with DVD recorders. Both technologies have improved over time, hardware made within the last year or two is dramatically better at some issues than older hardware. One huge variable is the use of DVD-only recorders: because these are recording direct to optical media, they are indeed subject to hiccups that cannot be seen until the DVD is finalized and played. Using a DVD recorder with built-in hard drive is far preferable, such machines usually have better input circuits and recording to the HDD allows quick easy "proofing" before burning the actual DVD. If there is a media problem, one can just discard the bad burn and do it again in 9 minutes. This hybrid approach offers the convenience of a standalone with some key advantages of a PC. Standalones made after 2006 rarely exhibit lip-sync loss. And I have never encountered a source issue that was not immediately passed thru my recorder outputs- garyjas has a real stumper there, which might even slip by the PC method.