NTSC to PAL

[fredfillis]

Trying to convert some home video to PAL.

I've used DGIndex to create the d2v file and split the audio out to mpa.

Now I'm trying to use Avisynth and Virtualdub to get my framerates right. Try as I might, I don't seem to be able to get virtualdub to load my audio file.

I'm following the outline provided here . In this "guide" it is indicated I can use TimeStretch(tempo = (100.0 * 25.0) / 23.976) to convert my audio. However, the script I'm using does not load the audio and whatever change I make to the script it seems to always result in an error.

MPEG2Source("NTSC2PAL.d2v")
AssumeTFF()
LeakKernelBob(order=1) # or order=0
ChangeFPS(25)
LanczosResize(720, 576)

Is there a way I can load the audio and do the stretch plus perform the video operations in one script? Or should I use something else (besweet???) to do the audio? I did try and made a wav but it sounded terrible (pitch change) so I trashed it.

Since my ultimate goal was to burn this video to DVD for my aussie family, what is the recommended way to mux my video / audio back together?

[manono]

Hi-

Although it's possible to handle the audio in the script, I never bothered to learn how, and it's not necessary anyway. Plus, by keeping the video the same length after the conversion, you won't have to do anything with it, unless you want to convert it (like to AC3).

Your information is incomplete. You said home video, so I'll assume it's interlaced. Your script definitely isn't for an interlaced source. You didn't give the destination format, but based on the resolution resize, I'll assume it's for PAL DVD.

If the source is interlaced 29.97fps, there's no perfect way to make the conversion to interlaced 25fps. You'll have to toss out fields.

So (again based on incomplete info), you want to go to 25i from 29.97i. The script he gives keeps the video the same length, so the audio can remain unchanged:

MPEG2Source("NTSC2PAL.d2v")
AssumeTFF() # or AssumeBFF()
LeakKernelBob(order=1) # or order=0
ChangeFPS(50)
LanczosResize(720,576)
SeparateFields()
SelectEvery(4, 0, 3)
Weave()
ConvertToYUY2(Interlaced=True)#for CCE, change for other encoders

Make sure you get the field order right, both in the script and in your encoder settings. In the default settings of the script, he's assuming TFF, and his SelectEvery keeps it TFF for your encoder. But a lot of home video is BFF. Test the script in VDubMod before encoding. If in VDubMod or in the final M2V you see jerky playback, you'll know you did something wrong with the field order.

Edited later: And I was slightly wrong myself, when I said it wasn't for an interlaced source. I should have said it's not for interlaced output. As xesdeeni himself says just before showing your script, "Use 29.97i to 25i when possible". That is, you'll get smoother playback keeping it interlaced.

And for why VDub won't load the script, you haven't given us the error message. If you literally had this line:

MPEG2Source("NTSC2PAL.d2v")

then that would explain it. You have to fill in the complete path and name, the equivalent on your computer for:

MPEG2Source("H:\Pinjar\Movie\Movie.d2v")

[tonyp12]

I did a few VHS PAL -to- NTSC DVD with great result.

I capture with a TV tuner card that can handle both NTSC/PAL using virtualdubmpeg2
Saving it as 720x576 HuffYUV

Load the new captured video, save the wave as a 16bit 48khz stereo (look in audio menu)
Change the frame rate from 25 to 23.976
Set filter to deinterlace, resize to 720x480
Transcode the audio with besweet (there is a preset for that)
Select this new audio in virtualdub.
Save the avi as HuffYUV.
Use your DVD authoring program to create a progressive NTSC DVD

Though you would have to it the otherway around.
But 90% of DVD players and TVs in Europe do PAL60, so you could just send
them a NTSC DVD.

[FulciLives]

I did a few VHS PAL -to- NTSC DVD with great result.

I capture with a TV tuner card that can handle both NTSC/PAL using virtualdubmpeg2
Saving it as 720x576 HuffYUV

Load the new captured video, save the wave as a 16bit 48khz stereo (look in audio menu)
Change the frame rate from 25 to 23.976
Set filter to deinterlace, resize to 720x480
Transcode the audio with besweet (there is a preset for that)
Select this new audio in virtualdub.
Save the avi as HuffYUV.
Use your DVD authoring program to create a progressive NTSC DVD

Though you would have to it the otherway around.
But 90% of DVD players and TVs in Europe do PAL60, so you could just send
them a NTSC DVD.

A nice attempt at being helpful there but *** LOUD ANNOYING BUZZER *** you screwed up.

He has 29.970fps "true" interlaced NTSC so you can't do it "the otherway around" as you say.

Xesdeeni's script (as pointed out by manono) is probably the "best" way of doing it.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[manono]

Deleted. Edited my first response instead.

[fredfillis]

Thanks for the tips. After some messing around I did get a variation of my script to run with the audio. I found using the stretch caused woeful sync.

Anyway, this is what I used.

LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\DGDecode.dll")
video=mpeg2source("E:\NTSC2PAL\ntsc2pal.d2v")
audio=mpaSource("E:\NTSC2PAL\NTSC2PAL T01 DELAY 0ms.mpa")
audiodub(video,audio)
AssumeTFF()
LeakKernelBob(order=1) # or order=0
ChangeFPS(25)
LanczosResize(720, 576)

Now this produces a very watchable avi but with a HUGE file size (about 1hr 42 minutes of video) of 187GB. What is my script creating here? Is it 25P? (newb here ).

Your information is incomplete. You said home video, so I'll assume it's interlaced. Your script definitely isn't for an interlaced source. You didn't give the destination format, but based on the resolution resize, I'll assume it's for PAL DVD.

Correct

Make sure you get the field order right, both in the script and in your encoder settings. In the default settings of the script, he's assuming TFF, and his SelectEvery keeps it TFF for your encoder. But a lot of home video is BFF. Test the script in VDubMod before encoding. If in VDubMod or in the final M2V you see jerky playback, you'll know you did something wrong with the field order.

Tested, and it appears to be TFF.

If you literally had this line:

MPEG2Source("NTSC2PAL.d2v")

then that would explain it. You have to fill in the complete path and name, the equivalent on your computer for:

MPEG2Source("H:\Pinjar\Movie\Movie.d2v")

That was not my problem, it was the timestretch line, had too many blanks in it. And my mpeg2source worked ok since the AVS was located with the video / audio files.

I have a couple of additional questions.

1. Normally I'm not doing any of this stuff, basically just slurping off my camera in MPEG and using dvdauthorgui / dvd decrypter to burn to DVD. So, if I just process the video with Avisynth / virtual dub (as suggested), what do you all recommend for putting the video / audio together for making my MPEG?

2. Why am I getting such HUGE avi file sizes? And I thought DV-AVI was big!

3. Sometimes my PC will reboot during virtualdub processing, normally near the end (of course). My guess is that its probably due to a codec issue (or not). Anyway, I've attached a log from Sherlock that shows waht I have on my machine. Any tips welcome!

Cheers.



codecs.txt

[FulciLives]

You test your AviSynth AVS script in VirtualDubMod to make sure it is working correctly but in the end ... when you are ready for the next step ... you open the AviSynth AVS script directly into your encoder.

In this case you should be using CCE or TMPGEnc Plus or HCenc or Procoder etc.

Also you should NOT be putting the audio into the script. Why are you insisting on that? Most encoders don't do sound all that well and almost none to conversion to AC-3 format so ... you always work with the sound separately unless you are editing with the script.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[fredfillis]

You test your AviSynth AVS script in VirtualDubMod to make sure it is working correctly but in the end ... when you are ready for the next step ... you open the AviSynth AVS script directly into your encoder.

So, there is no 180GB AVI on my drive? Just straight to mpeg via the script?

Also you should NOT be putting the audio into the script. Why are you insisting on that? Most encoders don't do sound all that well and almost none to conversion to AC-3 format so ... you always work with the sound separately unless you are editing with the script.

It is not a matter of insisting, it's a matter of checking. I've read plenty of posts here where audio is not in sync after NTSC to PAL "conversions". I'm happy to take the audio out however I want to make sure I don't spend hours of processing / crashing and swearing to end up with garbage at the end.

I'll check out HCenc, seems like it is right in my price range. Thanks for the tip!

[FulciLives]

You test your AviSynth AVS script in VirtualDubMod to make sure it is working correctly but in the end ... when you are ready for the next step ... you open the AviSynth AVS script directly into your encoder.

So, there is no 180GB AVI on my drive? Just straight to mpeg via the script?

Correct. There is no reason to make an intermediate AVI file on way to your MPEG-2 DVD spec file.

Also you should NOT be putting the audio into the script. Why are you insisting on that? Most encoders don't do sound all that well and almost none to conversion to AC-3 format so ... you always work with the sound separately unless you are editing with the script.

It is not a matter of insisting, it's a matter of checking. I've read plenty of posts here where audio is not in sync after NTSC to PAL "conversions". I'm happy to take the audio out however I want to make sure I don't spend hours of processing / crashing and swearing to end up with garbage at the end.

OK I suppose that makes sense but you can load the audio separately into VirtualDubMod so it doesn't need to be in the script.

I'll check out HCenc, seems like it is right in my price range. Thanks for the tip!

HCenc is a pretty amazing MPEG-2 DVD spec encoder ... I say amazing because the quality is most excellent and yet it is freeware!

However it has some "quirks" and one is ... make sure you manually set the GOP and do not do the "auto GOP" option. Also if you ever use it to encode progressive 23.976fps NTSC and select the 3:2 pulldown option ... well ... it doesn't work correctly and you will still need to run DGPulldown on the file afterwards (for 23.976fps to 29.970fps).

In the case of your script above you will want to set it up for a "standard" PAL interlaced encoding and should use "12-2" for your GOP settings. Also no need to worry about Pulldown.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[manono]

To confirm that the video length will be the same both before and after, and that the audio doesn't have to be stretched, first load this basic script (before) in VDub, and go File->File Information to check the length:

LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\DGDecode.dll")
mpeg2source("E:\NTSC2PAL\ntsc2pal.d2v")

Then load this script (after) and check the length:

LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\DGDecode.dll")
mpeg2source("E:\NTSC2PAL\ntsc2pal.d2v")
AssumeTFF()
LeakKernelBob(order=1)
ChangeFPS(25)
LanczosResize(720, 576)

They should be exactly the same length, and if there is a problem with the audio synch afterwards, beyond adjusting the delay, then you messed up somewhere in the encoder settings and changed the framerate. Even if your audio does go out of synch because of the video length changing, your script with the audio included doesn't resynch it.

[fredfillis]

I'm running a few tests now with HCenc. Thanks for the help, I'm making progress
I guess I still have a question regarding my original script which contained this

MPEG2Source("NTSC2PAL.d2v")
AssumeTFF()
LeakKernelBob(order=1) # or order=0
ChangeFPS(25)
LanczosResize(720, 576)

I should have said it's not for interlaced output. As xesdeeni himself says just before showing your script, "Use 29.97i to 25i when possible"

When I compare the output from the script above, I don't see any interlace artifacts. However, when I use the other script containing the code below, the interlacing is very distracting when viewed in vdub.

ChangeFPS(50)
LanczosResize(720,576)
SeparateFields()
SelectEvery(4, 0, 3)
Weave()
#ConvertToYUY2(Interlaced=True)#for CCE, change for other encoders HCenc wants YV12

Was my original script creating 25P rather than 25i? If the target is a PAL DVD for playback in a PAL country, why would I want 25i that looks pretty nasty in comparison?

Lastly, I found this post over at somewhere else which indicates that:

converttoyuy2 BEFORE sepfields - selevery - weave

Any opinions on that?

[manono]

Hi-

When I compare the output from the script above, I don't see any interlace artifacts. However, when I use the other script containing the code below, the interlacing is very distracting when viewed in vdub.

Your original script is for progressive output. Your second script is for interlaced output. As Xesdeeni himself said, the second script is better. PowerDVD and most other software DVD players have lousy deinterlacers. If you plan on watching on a standard interlaced CRT TV set, or if you have a decent HDTV with a decent DVD player, the results will be much better by keeping it interlaced. If you see interlacing when using Power DVD, then turn on some deinterlacing. Maybe you have it set to Weave, I don't know.

Was my original script creating 25P rather than 25i?

Yes.

If the target is a PAL DVD for playback in a PAL country, why would I want 25i that looks pretty nasty in comparison?

On your TV it'll look and play better.

Lastly, I found this post over at somewhere else which indicates that...

If scharfi said it, it's probably true. However, the difference will be so subtle, that I don't think you or I could tell the difference.

[fredfillis]

If you see interlacing when using Power DVD, then turn on some deinterlacing. Maybe you have it set to Weave, I don't know.

I'm viewing with virtualdub and / or MPC. Totally default settings. Weave is in my script. If there is a weave setting in MPC, I haven't found it yet

It's somewhat counterintuitive to accept that the output that looks worse on the computer is actually the best option but I respect the views of those with much more experience than I.

[manono]

Of course you'll see the interlacing in VDub. It doesn't deinterlace. MPC blends, I believe, as its default setting. VDub is awful, and MPC merely bad, for viewing interlaced material. Sorry though, I read your original VDub statement as being a real player, like PowerDVD. You don't play something in VDub and then say that's how it'll look on your TV set.

Anyway, don't take my word for it. You're the one that's going to be watching it. Burn samples to DVD-RW and have a look on your TV set.

It's somewhat counterintuitive to accept that the output that looks worse on the computer...

For the most part, software DVD players suck. Interlaced DVD looks its best when played over an interlaced display. Computer monitors are progressive displays.

[fredfillis]

Computer monitors are progressive displays.

In over 20 years of messing with computers, that is something I didn't know. That explains a lot 8)

I always make an R/W before my final burn but normally not until I'm happy with what I have on the PC. I guess I need to get PowerDVD or something like it for viewing before burning.

How does VLC compare to PowerDVD?

[FulciLives]

Nothing really can compare to burning a DVD-RW or DVD+RW and watching it on a TV instead of a computer monitor.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[jman98]

fredfillis - Have you considered the possiblity that this is all just a colossal waste of time to do this conversion? About 95% of the world's DVD players can correctly display NTSC DVD and unless your family has a really old TV, the odds are that their TV can handle the signal.

Consider the following - Hong Kong and Brazil use PAL. Know what their DVDs are? They're all NTSC. No joke. Know why? It's because conversion to PAL accomplishes almost nothing since people in those places can almost certainly play and watch NTSC DVDs and making them in NTSC allows them to be sold in NTSC countries (ie. the USA) where unfortunately a rather large number of old DVD players can't convert PAL to NTSC. Even if your family has an old TV, the odds are that their DVD player can convert an NTSC DVD to PAL anyway.

[machf]

Uh... that's not the reason why DVDs in Brazil are "ntsc" while the color TV system is PAL. It's because they use PAL-M, and NTSC also normally uses the M display norm (which, among other things, defines how many lines the screen has and how many frames per second are displayed). The confusion started when they began to call DVDs "PAL" and "NTSC" to mean they were meant for use with equipment designed for a 625/25 or 525/30 norm respectively. In the case of Hong Kong, what you said is likely true, OTOH. Just like you could buy multi-norm VCRs in Argentina cheap because though they use PAL-N, most close countries use NTSC.

[fredfillis]

fredfillis - Have you considered the possiblity that this is all just a colossal waste of time to do this conversion? About 95% of the world's DVD players can correctly display NTSC DVD and unless your family has a really old TV, the odds are that their TV can handle the signal.

Ah yes, mostly correct. However, the purpose of my effort is threefold. One is to convert NTSC to PAL for those who don't have NTSC capability (yes, there are one or two). And I also want to learn how to do it and get some hands on experience with some of the fantastic freeware tools available to us lucky b*stards!

[Alex_ander]

There can be reasons for conversion other than just local TV standard. E.g. I have a number of short music DVDs (both PAL and NTSC) from torrent downloads and want to compile them by content and not just by TV standard. Then the aim is to get them either in one standard or the other (I'd never make any strange PAL-NTSC compilation as sometimes recommended). This makes actual looking for proper conversion methods that are still far from perfect. MSU (known for their VDub/AviSynth filters) work in direction of precise frame interpolation and have positive results in this, unfortunately they can't publish those particular filters due to their contract with Samsung.

[videopot]

Hello i need to record my short film onto a VHS tape.
i am intendeding to record it from my camcorder (pal camera)
to a VCR (ntsc recording/playback/ mutli system)
will the recorded tape be of PAL standard??

[FulciLives]

Hello i need to record my short film onto a VHS tape.
i am intendeding to record it from my camcorder (pal camera)
to a VCR (ntsc recording/playback/ mutli system)
will the recorded tape be of PAL standard??

If you record from your PAL CAMCORDER then you are outputting PAL and if you use a VHS VCR as your recording device the VHS will be PAL format. Even if you use a multi-system VHS VCR the recorded tape will still be PAL format.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[videopot]

Thank you so very much for the tip off...