Divx Rip fine but Vegas Rendering Sizes out of wack

[WedgeX]

i'm not sure if this is the proper forum for this but This is my first post so forgive me.


I ripped a couple dvds that i'm using to edit footage

I got a 4.5 gb Vob file converted to AVI with a very reasonable output size of 700 mb ... which I guess it was set to do .. using GordianKnot and VirtualDubMod

but after editing with Sony vegas Divx, Xvid and WMV renders of the Avi give me files of 35 mb for only 50 seconds of video ... I'm only trying to retain the same quality of the origonal Ripped file, which already is not that graet.

my converted video will be alteast 35 minutes long ... but at this rate the file will be too large.


I'm also wondering why I simply cannot edit the Vob file by putting it directly into Vegas - Sony Vegas is obviously compatible with the format yet the 4 gb vob file only reads as 1 minute long (for some reason Vegas is only showing the first Chapter or Cell i guess of the file and not the entire mpeg 2 .... :/

[slacker]

Vegas is NOT compatible with that format. The VOB must be converted into a true MPEG2 file before it is placed on the timeline. I use MPEG Video Wizard for this purpose.

[guns1inger]

Vegas 6 can accept VOBs, although it isn't ideal. Just drag them to the timeline. As for what you get out - as with all video encoding, bitrate determines size, regardless of codec. It is all under your control, so if you can't get the size right, you are doing something wrong.

[WedgeX]

well thats fine

i'm more concerned with limiting file size and retaining the same visual quality as the avi that I origonally ripped.

[guns1inger]

Your process seems wrong anyway. Edit before you compress, or you will have to compress again and lose quality. If your editing is simple cuts, try using virtualdubmod or virtualdub-mpeg2 to edit the VOBs to get the clips you need. Output from there to a lossless codec like huffyuv or lagarith, import these into Vegas to edit, then out the final clip.

[WedgeX]

far from simple cuts ...

i'm editing gaming footage actually - captured from DVD recorder

I havn't the slightest Idea how to edit in virtual dub, but I highly doubt its appropriate for that purpose

and either way I would still have to do further editing with vegas after anyways

mabye I should rip the whole vob to lossless format anyway and edit that in vegas?

i just need something quick to speed up the Encoding process at the moment, I'm obviously retarded when it comes to encoding - my first attempt got me a reasonable avi - but when I tried to tweak the settings I used and get a higher quality video that was resized better (less black around the sides) It took 8 hours to encode and gives me a 300 mb file of garbage quality.

I also just need a process thats easily repeatable that will give me the same type of vid (in other words shape, size, quality etc) to work with in the editor.

[slacker]

You captured from a dvd recorder so the footage is already in mpeg format, not avi format. And you need to convert it why? If you are only cut editing along with some simple titling and transitions, I would still recommend MPEG Video Wizard.

Mark

[WedgeX]

Well from what I can tell the files on the DVD's are Vob

mpg2 yes but they are still vob files that I can't properly load in sony vegas ....

I dont want to use a different editor, I want to use vegas because I know what I can and cannot do with it already.... and I'm pretty sure i'm going to be completely lost if I start using something else.

not to offend but - I already stated twice that the cuts and edits to the footage aren't simple they are many and complex ... I know exactly what I want in my head, its just a matter of doing it.

the problem is the quality is continuously degrading with each conversion from Vob - Divx - to the final edited and rendered footage - The quality from the DVD recorder itself is not that good .. I mean it looks decent on my TV .. but put that on a PC and it looks pretty bad.

And also - Vegas rendering doesn't seem to be 'handling' the converted video or audio very well

here is a 17 minute preview of a segment of what i've edited so far

http://files.filefront.com/Americas_Army___Snipers_Paradise_Previewavi/;5204366;;/fileinfo.html

I'm not really concerned with the fuzzyness as much as the artifacts that occur when there is fast change of direction - you see like boxes or blocks that shouldn't be there

What I'd like to know right now is if there is a format I could convert the Vob's too that wouldn't loose anything - it wouldn't so much encode to a smaller size but re-write to another format of the same size 4.5 GB Vob to 4.5 GB whatever ... that would be compatible with vegas and I wouldn't be continuously degrading quality.

[guns1inger]

You are getting degradation because of your choice of codec. Divx and other mpeg4 codecs are designed for maximum compressability. This comes ta a cost, and the cost is quality and editability.

Your second problem is simply that you are trying to use tools that are designed to work very well with one type of video, but insisting on working with a format much less suited for your task.

If you must use Vegas (and that is your decision and I respect it), then convert your VOBs to DV avi or a losslessly compressed format, edit, then output. Vegas is, first and foremost, a DV editor, not an mpeg editor. You will also get less degradation, if done properly, as you will be using codecs suited to your task. Unfortunately, none of the appropriate formats are even remotely close to the same size as the VOBs. DV is 13GB per hour of footage. Most lossless formats are substantially larger again.

As for the blocking, this is usually a sign of over compression, which I would expect to see given your current process.

If you cannot use DV or a lossless codec because of space constaints, then you have a simple decision to make. Buy more space, or accept lower quality.

[WedgeX]

Wow, thanks for putting that in perspective for me:

I have a 70 gb hard drive and a 30 gig hard drive

its not that much - but what your saying is perhaps managable

most of the DVD's i'm working with are 120 mins long but I could possible cut footage from each one one at a time and then put them together at a later date.... I dont see it being that much more difficult that what i'm doing now... it would just take more patience.

any advice as to what tools to look into for Converting to DV lossless?

[guns1inger]

Virtualdubmpeg2 and the panasonic codec will do DV conversion. Not lossless, but the change will be minimal over one generation. Lagarith or huffyuv are good, gree lossless codecs. I don't think you have the space to use these.

Most editing is done by first reviewing the material and selecting the most likely clips, then editing and refining from there. If you plan ahead you will not have to have all the footage on the HDD at the same time, and will most likely get a better result because ofg the extra though put in up front.

[terjeber]

Well from what I can tell the files on the DVD's are Vob

They would be.

mpg2 yes but they are still vob files that I can't properly load in sony vegas ....

Yes you can. File -> Import -> DVD Camcorder disk. If this is a home-burned DVD, you can get the stuff right off from the DVD. If it is a commercial DVD you need to first use DVD decrypter and then point Vegas to the directory where you ripped the DVD.

This will give you the least amount of quality reduction when you re-edit. There will be quality loss though. What you do not want to do is to edit the DivX stuff.

not to offend but - I already stated twice that the cuts and edits to the footage aren't simple they are many and complex ... I know exactly what I want in my head, its just a matter of doing it.

That is fine, but do realize that when you edit footage that is as heavily compressed as MPEG-2, or even worse, DivX/MPEG-4, you will see a, quite possibly, significant quality reduction.

the problem is the quality is continuously degrading with each conversion from Vob - Divx - to the final edited and rendered footage

That's the nature of compression and re-compression. You can't overcome that any more than you can overcome gravity by using sheer willpower. There are a few ways to minimize quality loss though. The first is not to re-compress your DVD into DivX. Sorry, but once you do that you have lost. You should either just edit the video directly (see my import DVD solution above) or upconvert it into something that isn't compressed. If you do that, you need a fast computer with a lot of harddrive space. Go out and get a new 300G drive, or even two.

Within your space constricts right now, stick with ripping the DVD and editing the VOB/MPEG.

I'm not really concerned with the fuzzyness as much as the artifacts that occur when there is fast change of direction - you see like boxes or blocks that shouldn't be there

Compression artifacts. As long as you re-compress as many times as you do, they will be there.

What I'd like to know right now is if there is a format I could convert the Vob's too that wouldn't loose anything

Either don't convert or convert to non-compressed AVI, which will take up a lot of disk space.

[WedgeX]

Well from what I can tell the files on the DVD's are Vob

They would be.

mpg2 yes but they are still vob files that I can't properly load in sony vegas ....

Yes you can. File -> Import -> DVD Camcorder disk. If this is a home-burned DVD, you can get the stuff right off from the DVD. If it is a commercial DVD you need to first use DVD decrypter and then point Vegas to the directory where you ripped the DVD.

What version of Vegas are you talking about?

all I see under File / Import - is Import Media, Wave, or AFF

there is also Capture from Camcorder but that is something else from waht you were talking about.

I can Import Media - and the Vob will go in Vegas File Manager within the program - and I can put it on the video Track - but the 2hour long VOB will read as a 30 second clip
I'm thinking it might be possible to get around this by using dvd dycrypter to extract all of the index files to seperate vobs

the only problem is that I now have a segment of the Video completely finished editing and I dont want to do it all over - but if i could get the full 2 hours of video in a single file of better quality I'd be able to get better renders of the finished product

Vegas is pretty cool that way you can edit with one source and then make the final render with another so long as the 2 files your exchanging with are the same length.

but getting back on topic - how do I use Virtual Dub to get me a DV .. or uncompressed avi? are there any tutorials u can point me towards?

[BJ_M]

upgrade to vegas 6 - it can read vob files just fine including ac3 .. will save you a lot of time and sync issues

[WedgeX]

i'm using Vegas6(a)

In the last 3 hours i just finished Re-Encoding one of the Vob files i'm using

I tried doing no-compression but VirtualDubMod kept crashing ... so I just tried doing another Encode but with only half as much compression - in other words my editing file would be 1600 mb instead of just 750 mb .... I put that in vegas and did a few test renders, the blocky artifacts are gone from those segments of the vid..... so at 1600 mb I might be fine with this quality alone.

I believe at this point the blocky artifacts are happening in the origonal encode of the vob not in my vegas renders .... but another problem I'm having is the Scan-Line look

is this called interlacing? which de-interlace refers too? it is the Scaned look that mpg2 vids from a DVD show when played on a Computer instead of a television

I'm wondering how to control these or remove them so it looks flat and normal ... I need to either remove this with the origonal encode to xvid or when I do my final rendering in vegas - What gets rid of it? Even if I'm lucky enough to figure out how to load my Vob files in vegas its still gonig to have this scanned effect.

[BJ_M]

you are using a old version of 6 , upgrade ...


do not remove the interlacing from interlaced sources if you intend your delivery to be on a TV..

if you have to remove the interlacing - be prepared for lowering the quality , specially on fast moving sports ...

[terjeber]

i'm using Vegas6(a)

Update your Vegas to 6d

[WedgeX]

Done

I've updated to 6.0 D

guess what, It didnt' make any difference.... its not showing the proper time index for any Vobs added to the track

a ten minute Vob file is 28 seconds, a 2 hour vob file is 20 seconds... makes no sense to me

and Importing Camcorder DVD made no difference either - either i get it on the track and the time of the file is wrong - or it simply crashes vegas

[slacker]

I will suggest it one more time. I don't believe VOB files are compatible with Vegas. If they are, please direct me to the sony forum or document or whatever which states this. I still think you need to convert the VOBs to MPEG2 prior to placing on the timeline.

[BJ_M]

vob files are read by vegas - just go to the vegas forums where there are about 1000 posts on this subject (or here or at creative cow or at DMN) ... BUT sony doesnt officially support vobs EXCEPT from a camcorder source

http://www.custcenter.com/cgi-bin/sonypictures.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=500...i=&p_topview=1

the reason is simple -- vobs can contain a lot data and structure that cant always be read -- and also vegas is a serious tool, but vob sources are not good source media ....


vegas DOES read mpeg2

http://www.custcenter.com/cgi-bin/sonypictures.cfg/php/enduser/popup_adp.php?p_sid=f4j...90ZXh0PXZvYg**

Vegas Movie Studio+DVD 6.0 and Vegas Movie Studio+DVD Platinum feature a function to extract data from a DVD camcorder disc, which will save the video as a standard MPEG file for editing. Extracting data from non-camcorder DVD's is not supported.

[slacker]

VOB files are read by Vegas ONLY while doing the conversion to MPEG2. Otherwise Vegas does not READ VOB files. Sony CONVERTS the vob to mpeg when doing file import from a camcorder disk. Not the same thing as directly supporting VOB files. It DOESN'T support VOB files. You are giving a false impression.

I still recommend using a VOB to MPEG utility such as MPEG Video Wizard or VOB2MPEG before loading into Vegas. Much more stable.

[guns1inger]

Semantics, but VOB to Mpeg2 is not a conversion, it is really an extraction, as mpeg2 video (s) + audio + other things make up the content of vob files.

For cameras it is simple because the VOBs will only contain a single title by the nature of the way they are created. For VOBs from other sources it is more unpredictable because the VOBs could contain many titles, with mutliple audio and subtitle tracks in various formats. Hence Son'y caveat on which VOBs Vegas will import.

The question isn't will Vegas edit VOBs, but will it import them. The simple answer is yes, the complex answer may include the "how" if you wish.

I agree that the best option is always to extract the specific data required from the VOBs before proceeding, but I would recommend this in all cases, not just Vegas.

[slacker]

Sounds good guns1inger!