What is best DVD recorder?

[kevs]

I'm been testing few out, but even new Sony, which I thought had real good build does not seem to record DVD to DVD real well at SP LP speeds. Is this nature of beast or is that the deal with digital recording DVD to DVD. I get better results with DVD to VCR at LP. or is the make out there that is really great I don't know about. thanks!

[FulciLives]

The 3 top brands seem to be:

JVC
PIONEER
TOSHIBA

I put those in no particular order.

However I should point out that if the source is a DVD then you are better off making a BACK-UP COPY using a computer with a DVD burner. The back-up can be done in the digital domain and will look (and sound) much better than making a back-up copy by playing the original DVD on a DVD player and using a DVD recorder to make the back-up copy.

There are a variety of programs made for making a back-up copy with your computer. There are also many guides here on how to do this.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[lordsmurf]

The 3 top brands seem to be:

JVC
PIONEER
TOSHIBA

I put those in no particular order.

Yes.

[trhouse]

A recorder is not a good way to reproduce a dvd. Playing back the dvd converts compressed digital data to analog, the recorder then has to reconvert the analog data back to digital and re-encode the data back to an mpeg2 format which is a lossy process. Your copy cannot be as good as the original for these and more subtle reasons. A recorder is also a slow process. The dvd has to be played back realtime so if it is two hours long, it is going to take two hours to copy.

There are better methods which allow an exact reproduction. In a blind test you would not be able to distinguish the copy from the original. This is one of the advantages of the digital domain vs tape.

The computer is the best method although some recorders like the Pioneer 531H can make exact copies by copying the dvd to its hard drive then you can make as many duplicates as you like from that copy ( but not commercial, protected dvds ). Both the Pioneer and computer can do it fast. Less than 10-15 minutes to make a perfect copy, maybe a bit longer for dual/double layer media.

[kevs]

Fulci:
coming from the VCR tv world, I'm going to keep it there and use recorder thanks for suggestion though as always.

Now, this is quite interesting. I was having other issues VCR to DVD, I thought that DVD to DVD would look great, but in fact, LP mode DVD player to DVD recorder is WORSE thank LP mode DVD player to VCR at LP or even EP!

thanks for great explanion trhouse!

Being that I don't want to deal with this on computer, is there any hope?

I really thought this was digital to digital, but I guess it's not being that the recorder does not have a digital optical in, Do any recorders have a true digital in? Is this the nut of the problem, that I'm doing this with rca cords and not digital cords?

Are there players/recorders which can do pure digital play to record?

I'm also thinking of getting a duplicator

[trhouse]

You sound like my nephew. I am doing a big family project converting home video to dvd but it involves a number of families and making copies for everyone is a pretty tedious task and ties up the computers drives.

My nephew is not computer literate so I loaned him my Pioneer 531H recorder. It has a hard drive so he can plop in one of our home created dvds, copy it to the hard drive. The process is like a computer. It is a bit for bit copy with no degradation, no conversions to analog and back, and it happens fast. Once it is on the hard drive, he can make exact copies to more dvd disks and mail them to the right person. It saves me a lot of time. I am not sure what a duplicator costs but the 531H is being phased out so they are probably available for less than $300.

[kevs]

thanks trhouse:
I think the duplicator idea just went out window, in that I have movies I Own, (not rented) that may want to back up, and I think you would see dual layer -- which is still way to expensive as media. so.....

May go back to VCR for that purpose,
but want to confirm:
that those other DVD recorders wont really record to LP mode 4 hours any better or much better than my Sony correct? because that is not the issue.

Also, please if anyone can speak to my question about the issue being rca cables and not digital cables.....

I actually am pretty computer literate and do lot of photography internet, e mail... so last thing I want it to be in front on computer more....

But finally, what about the Pioneer recorder mentioned with hardrive. If you buy a recorder (any recorder) with hard drive and then record you stuff to the hardrive, then archive it later back to a DVD-R, then that would solve this issue?

[FulciLives]

I really don't understand the lack of desire on doing it completely on a computer. All you need is a computer with a DVD burner. A DVD burner is down to around $50 or $60 these days. The computer need not be that fast or "great" of a computer although it does make your life easier if you have WinXP since there is no file size limit as per older versions of Windows.

There are many ways of doing it on a computer ... some hard ... some very easy. DVDShrink is easy and free. DVDFab Gold is also easy but costs about $40.00 or so ... DVDShrink will compress a Dual Layer original DVD to fit on a single layer DVD blank. DVDFab Gold will allow you to split a Dual Layer original DVD across two single layer DVD blanks so that no quality is lost. Both are very easy to use.

When you do it the way you are trying to do it ... from DVD player to DVD recorder ... you are recording analog video. Yes it is very HIGH quality analog video since it is comming from a DVD player ... but it is still analog video. There is no such digital to digital connection between DVD player and DVD recorder ... the only way to achieve that is using a computer.

Some (though very few) DVD recorders have component video inputs ... that would be the best way to go from DVD player to DVD recorder. The 2nd best would be S-Video. The worst would be using composite video. At the very least you should be using S-Video.

The Pioneer will allow you to copy a DVD to the HDD then back to a DVD blank but it only works with DVD discs free of copy protection. Also I know it works if the original is single layer ... might work if the orginal is Dual Layer but only if you use a Dual Layer blank. Right now Pioneer DVD recorders (the stane alone type not the computer burner type) only use DVD-R DL which is harder to come by then DVD+R DL.

Also DVD is way different than VHS video so you have to forget about the old SP/LP/SLP way of thinking. 3 Hours is about the most you want to put on a DVD if you want good to excellent quality.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[samijubal]

The PC is definitely the way to go. All you have to do is start the project and walk away, you don't have to stay there until it's done.

[kevs]

great info Fulci, question:
for Mac: what is best software. Isn't it pretty convoluted process? or no? someone once described process of making a copy of a DVD movie (you own, not rent), and it sounded real cumbersome)

you would recommend this over getting a DVD burner with HD? (I have two computer DVD burners, one came with G5 and a faster external Lacie)

So optical digital cables are not a reality from dvd to dvd?

DVD with hardrive -- what do you mean use dual layer? you just copy what you want to the 160GB and then later, burn that to a DVD -R, at your leisure no? I did n't get what you were saying there.

[trhouse]

By "optical digital cables are not a reality from dvd to dvd? " are you referring to Firewire or as Sony calls it, iLink?

You can transfer via iLink, DV from a camcorder to the Sony recorder, but the digital DV signal is not the proper format for dvd, so even though it is a digital transfer, it must still be converted to mpeg2 format which is a lossy process resulting in a degradation from the original.

[FulciLives]

great info Fulci, question:
for Mac: what is best software. Isn't it pretty convoluted process? or no? someone once described process of making a copy of a DVD movie (you own, not rent), and it sounded real cumbersome)

I don't use an Apple/MAC computer. I have no idea. We do have a forum here dedicated for MAC users.

So optical digital cables are not a reality from dvd to dvd?

Not in the sense that you are thinking. There is no way to make a "digital" bit perfect copy of a DVD unless you do it on the computer. At least when it comes to copy protected DVD discs.

DVD with hardrive -- what do you mean use dual layer? you just copy what you want to the 160GB and then later, burn that to a DVD -R, at your leisure no? I did n't get what you were saying there.

When you use a DVD recorder with a built-in HDD and you copy the DVD to the HDD (as described by trhouse in an earlier post) you are in the "digital" world ala on a computer. So if the original DVD is Dual Layer ... you can only copy back to a Dual Layer DVD blank. In short this method does not work on making a back-up of a copy protected DVD. It is available for you to make additional copies of your own copies. Meant to share family camcorder footage etc.

I'm sure if you look in the TOOLS section (see the left hand bar of the website) you can find software for a MAC plus as I said we have that MAC only section of the forum.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[kevs]

No, tr house, I was referring the the super thin optical cords I see at the back of my mini disc machine going into my cd player. which is pure digital. Drag that is lossy, I would think FW connection to camcorder to REcorder would be lossless. darn.

thanks Fulci:
I'm going to check out the Mac section.

Curious, how many gigs is the average movie (store bought, not rental, bought, not copy protected)
I wouldn't mind spreading it over 2 DVD (4.7), but 3 would be real excessive -- lets say a 2 1/2 hour movie with few bonus things included.

And would you want to compress it onto 1-- 4.7GB wouldn't that introduce the original problems of noise and pixilations?

Still curious on that last thought: still don't full get why I can copy a DVD to VCR in LP mode, then copy that again to a VCR in EP mode and then back to a VHS tape in EP mode, and it still looks better , than a one generation pass from DVD to DVD REcorder in LP. My respect for VHS is going up these days.

[samijubal]

Any movie on 1 disc will fit on 2 discs. When I do backups I always put them on 2 discs if they won't fit on 1. You will be able to get everything on the disc, all bonus features, etc.

[trhouse]

The optical cable is for audio not video.

You did not mention which model Sony recorder you have. The GX315 can burn double layer disks with 8.5 GB capacity so it may not be necessary to do two disks.

This is simplifying a lot, but magnetic media whether tape or hard drive is capable of greater data densities than optical media at this time. Optical drives have very precise tracking mechanisms with lower density optical media, VHS has higher density magnetic media but coupled with a poor mechanical tracking system. The hard drive has the precise tracking of the optical drive married to the magnetic media and achieves better than either.

Once you are free from the capacity limitations of optical media you can capture with higher bitrates. For example, the Pioneer 531H hard drive recorder can capture to its hard drive with bitrates of 15 Mbs which exceeds the dvd standard maximum bitrate of about 10 Mbs by 50%.

[kevs]

Oh, that's it trhouse, so there is no digital equivalent then as that optical cable.

thanks again!

Not going to bother with double layer yet, way too expensive still.

Hard to follow those 2nd two paragraphs-- maybe you could put it more in layman's terms. magnetic gets greater densities so that's why vhs is looking better to me on copies at lp /ep? what is bit rate of vhs?

thanks sam: so never needs to go over 2.

[kevs]

also, if hardrive is best, do you disagree then with Fulci who said computer is best way to go? it's either computer or getting recorder with hardrive -- or is that was you meant computer with hard drive? gets confusing

[monobum]

I'm very happy with my Pioneer 633 DVDR w. 160 GB Harddrive wich lets me edit in multiple ways before burning my master copy.

[FulciLives]

Go with the computer method. It is fairly easy and allows for a quality back-up.

Some store bought commercial DVD discs are single layer ... also called DVD5 discs ... some are dual layer ... also called DVD9 discs.

If the original is a DVD5 then you can make a bit perfect copy using a computer.

If the original is a DVD9 then you have 3 different options:

1.) Compress it to fit onto a single layer DVD blank. Sometimes the compression is not noticeable and sometimes it is. It depends on many factors and each movie is unique.

2.) Do not compress and back-up to a one dual layer DVD blank. This would be a bit perfect copy.

3.) Split the original dual layer DVD into two parts and burn it across two single layer DVD blanks. You get a bit perfect copy but at some point you have to swap discs while watching the movie. Some people don't like this method unless they have a multi-disc DVD player (for instance you can buy a DVD player that ... like some CD players ... can hold 5 DVD discs at once ... thus the time to switch from Disc 1 to Disc 2 is not that great and can be done with the remote).

Again the only way to get a bit-perfect copy of a DVD with COPY PROTECTION is to do it on a computer.

A stand alone DVD recorder is for analog video like VHS or Beta tapes ... LaserDiscs ... cable and satellite TV ... etc.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[FulciLives]

Here is a thread you should read ... it is in the MAC forum group of this website ...

Tutorials: The Complete Guide to Macintosh Video Conversion

Reading that thread I found the following link ...

Mac DVD to DVDr For Newbies

That should get you started

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[kevs]

thanks Fulci, great info.
Just curious, is there a way to know beforehand how large exactly is the movie you will be copying?

[FulciLives]

thanks Fulci, great info.
Just curious, is there a way to know beforehand how large exactly is the movie you will be copying?

Sometimes the DVD packaging will say if it is a dual layer DVD but most often it does not.

So you really will not know until you rip it most times.

You can't really tell just by looking at the DVD disc.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[kevs]

Fulci,
you know I just realized that even if it works with computer, and later I want to then go from my player to a DVD REcorder. I'm back to where I began. What I'm saying is that I like to have a movie, and sometimes put a small scene onto a DVD-then another day, put another scene onto that same DVD-R, and do it from the couch relaxing, and not have to be upright at the Computer monitor adding a scene one day, and then adding a scene the next day.

So what I am describing here, then could then only be achieved with great quality and true ease with a REcorder/Hardrive unit, correct?

I mean the computer is great if I want a fast backup. But then to take that and put bits and pieces of it to a blank DVD -r, it's then best to have a Recorder with HD because if I put in in my player and record to a Recorder we would be back to the same problem right? thanks!

[FulciLives]

I give up.

[kevs]

Fulci:
all saying is that computer great for backing up, but if you then want to edit to DVD-R in, home style way, DVD w hardrive is only way to go. your help has been great thanks!

understand frustration, the technology of these recorders not quite up snuff yet.

[lordsmurf]

The technology is fine. You're just trying to do something that is not in the intent of design of the devices. You're trying to use the wrong tool for the job at hand. Would you carve a Thanksgiving turkey with a butter knife?

[kevs]

thanks lords, that makes sense, cool analogy.
The design intent of DVD Recorders then is what would you say?

(ie, recording from TV or HD, but not from VHS tapes or even from DVD plalyers... as I've been learning)

[lordsmurf]

Record from TV or DV cameras, period. Standard, traditional signals. Nothing HD or anything "new". These are consumer devices, for the most part.

They can record from VHS, but much of this depends on what the source signal quality is. That's not their problem if your signal sucks or is copy protected, though many of them try to add filters to assist in this (the sucks part, not the anti-copy part).

DVD's were never meant to be copied (not commercials ones, at least), assuredly not analog. The inherent value of optical tech is lossless digital copying, not analog copying. Copying digital source with analog means often looks worse than if you copied analog with analog means.

[kevs]

thanks lords! Yes!
"often looks worse than if you copied analog with analog means. "

this is what I've been learning!
now just figuing out what to do. will the vcr's stay or go.

what do you think of DVD with HD? and making dupes from computer -- I'm on another thread on that, and seems becoming more time consuming than hoped for (if goes over 4.7GB)