Should I trash my VHS masters once I'm Done?

[monobum]

Hi there I'm in the process of transfering my VHS collection of mostly tv shows, old concerts etc. to my stand alone Pioneer 633 DVDR. There are some tapes that I'm done with transferring with 2 copies of each already burned & tested. My question is should I trash my VHS masters once I'm Done? They take up alot of room & I'm trying to clean up my apt space wise.

What all you pros out there think?
Thanks
Ricky

[TBoneit]

Trash Masters

Pros: Save space

Cons: No chance to do again if a better method comes along.
If originals from the studios, Lost any legal right to keep the DVD copies as I understand it.
Tape may last better than DVDs, time will tell.

Thats off of the top of my head

[lordsmurf]

Depends on what it is.

If you're not 200% happy with it, keep it for later. I've upgraded hardware in the past, and was able to redo some work that was far better than my first version.

I once through away my masters for something. I regret it, because I could have done better now. Luckily, that was a mistake I did not make often.

[noki]

DO NOT toss 'em. shelf-life of tapes far exceed DVDR. ie 5 years from now your DVDs might not be readable, BUT THE TAPES WILL. If you go with the DVDR route exclusively plan on making a new copy ever 5 years or so just to be sure. Tapes on the other hand should be good for decades, ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL.

[discguy001]

I wonder if Noki has had a family video on a disc for 5 years?

I have family video on a verbatim DVD-R (when they still said 'for General' on the disc) and I made it on a panasonic LF-D311SC 1X writer in 2001. It plays just fine in a set-top and perfectly readable in a PC. I also have pioneer dvd-r's and Apple DVD-r from the same year that play no problem....so much for your 5 year theory.

I still have all my tapes too.

[j1d10t]

ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL.

Ahh, but since when are all things equal?

I wouldn't trash the tapes. But make sure you store them in a good place - don't just stuff them in a box in the garage. If you want them to hold up for years and years you'll want to make sure they don't go through any extreme temp changes, no direct sunlight, rewound all the way, etc. I've got my tapes in a box in the bottom of my closet - out of the way, stored up-right.... Ready for the day I need them again.

[lordsmurf]

DO NOT toss 'em. shelf-life of tapes far exceed DVDR. ie 5 years from now your DVDs might not be readable, BUT THE TAPES WILL.

That's not even remotely true.

Optical media will outlast analog tape by at least 2-3 times.

You've been reading too much of that uninformed crap that has been written by company shills (like the IBM ass who wrote a boogeyman article, and it got carried by AP), or those people who act like Chicken Little and are just not very educated in the technologies involved.

On average, expect a VHS tape to last 10-20 years, on average. Some last twice as long. On average, expect an optical media (CD, DVD, well-made LD) to last 20-30 years minimum, and many could last twice as long. Average life of optical media is probably 40-50 years before they start to have issues. By that time, you'll have been able to LOSSLESSLY transfer the digital data to new media, something analog could never do.

[thefiddler]

If you buy good brand name DVD-R's, the life expectancy is longer than your own. I don't know where this 5 year crap comes from, but the materials in VHS tape degrade quicker, especially with any sort of use, or when not protected carefully from dust and other things that can contribute to the breakdown of the physical tape. Plus they're magnetically based, which means that if you have them close to speakers, electrical wirring (currents), or one of any number of other things that produce electromagnetic emissions, they will slowly cause degradation of the signal recorded on the tape. For quality DVD-R's (as I mentioned "good brand name") the lowest life expectancy starts at around 75 years, while a high quality VHS under ideal conditions, is maxes out at around 65 years.

So my advice, are you satisfied with the transfers? If so throw the originals away. Don't live a cluttered life, far too many people do these days. Your MPEG transfers have captured the VHS's at higher than their original quality. The only disadvantage to your DVD-R's is the MPEG compression which can show issues if recompressed for some reason or another.

[lordsmurf]

Your MPEG transfers have captured the VHS's at higher than their original quality.

While this SHOULD be true, it often is not. People often do not get all the quality out of their VHS tapes because they use inferior VHS players, inferior digital recording hardware, and then they make mistakes in getting everything set up.

I get disgusted when I see VHS to DVD transfers that are full of chroma noise, tracking errors, color is off, video is bleedy, grain is apparent, and then to top it off, the MPEG work is blocky and has the wrong IRE. People really just butcher video more often than not. It's because they don't spend the time and funds necessary to do decent work. It just looks like complete crap.

[zoobie]

Don't throw anything away...ever.
They also may be good enough for transfer to blu-ray in a few a year(s).

[Jester700]

Don't throw anything away...ever.
They also may be good enough for transfer to blu-ray in a few a year(s).

I'd LOVE to see your garage & attic...

But IF you have the gear to do a great DVD transfer now, you gain nothing by waiting for blu-ray anyway; the source doesn't require it, and VCRs aren't going to get any better.

[whitejremiah]

ideally, transfer it with the highest quality cables you can find to huffyuv and dvdr the results.....in practice though, even that has it's flaws.....and generally speaking, it's not very practical either.....mostly just because of the amount of space that's required to do that.....if you follow lordsmurf's advice though, and transfer everything over properly and you DO end up with something that looks slightly better than the original, i'd see no reason to keep the originals at that point anyhow......and i'd consider looking into either the TDK armor plated dvdr or some other form of scratch resistant discs as well, that way there's less chance of the dvd discs being ruined....

[classfour]

Are they really taking up that much space? Having disposed of older tapes that I'd archived to DVD-R - I regret it. I know that I could do much better now, if I had the originals.

[InXess]

That's not even remotely true.

Optical media will outlast analog tape by at least 2-3 times.

.........
On average, expect a VHS tape to last 10-20 years, on average. Some last twice as long. On average, expect an optical media (CD, DVD, well-made LD) to last 20-30 years minimum, and many could last twice as long. Average life of optical media is probably 40-50 years before they start to have issues.

You 're talking store bought DVD's or DVD-R's?

How do you know that... and if you're so sure why "probably"? Remember the case of 99 year warranty on Kodak CD's? Gone by now (actually withdrawn 1 year later), forgotten...

I'd keep the tapes just in case...

[lordsmurf]

You 're talking store bought DVD's or DVD-R's?

Both. Pressed discs are not indestructible as compared to dye-based media. Each has it's own merits and drawbacks.

Also, a 99 year warranty is retarded to begin with. Don't base your information on something as foolish as that. And there are definitely valid reasons to keep tapes. It just happens that the reason you stated is not one of them.

[NiteLite]

Store your most wanted Tapes at a friend or family member's house.
What happens if (god forbid) you have a fire or in some areas a flood and you lose everything.
I know I lost some very precious Tape storage in a disater several years back and did not have DVDR back then. Now they are out of print and cant be found. Hard enough finding them the first time from around the world.
A fire could wipe out your entire DVD collection. I would find it hard to dispose of a safety net you may never need but, oh my, if you did.
Good luck,
NL

[overloaded_ide]

I never would toss the tapes unless they did not work, got ruined somehow.

Tapes ARE PROVEN to last for decades already, no geussing about it!
I have BETA TAPES, anyone remember those
I recently got another Beta Player. YES, I have a couple of Beta's I have put on DVD now. I cannot say exactly how old these tapes are, but how long since comercail movies like TOP SECRET was released on BETA?? The tape still worked fine. Yes after running several old tapes the players heads needed cleaned already, but the point is the tapes worked fine and I was able to make DVDs from them.
Cleaning the heads may be a pain but it was better than tossing out the movies to never have again. Some of the movies are nice to have, but not worth buying again on DVD. Some of them I would buy new on DVD but I can't find them anywhere.

If stored propery then they would have been in better shape, most of the few hundred Beta's I have are from old rental stores (50-100 tapes, $10) used and abused for years, then I bought them used almost 14 years ago, also old garage sale tapes from over many years.

Same thing with VHS, I have tapes I know for a fact are at least 20 years old, still play like new.
My old VHS-C tapes from over 10 years ago are also fine, I just captured a few to the computer again the other day. That camera broke over 10 years ago that recorded those tapes, so some of the tapes are even older.

Seal up the tapes and store properly, once on DVD you don't need to use tapes any more untill you may need to make a new copy someday.

DVD R of any format is geussing only as to the life. How many DVD R disks are 10-20 years old yet? Did we even have DVD Burners 10-20 years ago? I don't think so. So claims on how long they last are based only on guessing not on actaul real life age!
I know for a fact 20-30 year old tapes are working because I have those

Alot for tapes or disks either one will depend on the quality of course as far as how long they may last. BUT NEVER EVER have I had a coaster from a VHS or Beta tape in my entire life

How can anyone even try to claim 50-100 year life for recordable DVDs when half the time we don't even know if they will even have a 10 second life because of all the media problems and geuss work resulting in coasters for so many people.
I was using Riteks and never had a coaster a few years ago (other than a junk burner I had to return for refund) but know I read they went down hill and are crap half the time now.

I bought TONS of disks, so I still have about 100 of the good old Riteks that never failed me, I think 4X. But I got busy with other stuff and have not been burning nearly as many for awhile. I am still capturing and buring and authoring DVDs but not as many as I was.

Ok, how long will my good ones from 2 years ago that never gave me a coaster last compared to the half junk ones today I hear about? If todays Ritecks went downhill like claimed and produce half coasters, does that perhaps also mean that the life of a disk that does burn ok may be shorter? Who's to say untill they actually do start going bad?
Does Ritek say "hey half our disks are coasters today but buy them anyway", or do they still try to claim they are good disks as always? I don't know that answer. But I dought they would be calling thier own disks junk, and for the same reason I seriously dought they would openly say the new disks have only half the life expectancy they should have.

My comments applie to any and all disks, I just use Ritek as an example because I know they were great disks for me at one time and now read everywhere that they really went downhill. Though I have not bought any recently myself.

How many "BRANDS" do you people have to geuss at as to the media codes and who made them where? Since your not even sure half the time if the disk will even burn correctly, how can any one think about saying in general comments that DVD recordables have XXX numbers of years life??
You don't even know if it will burn, so it may have 0 DAYS of life

DL is still pretty new, no 30year old disks in those either yet!

I read Taiyo Yuden is still great and reliable, about the only one I am fairly certain now that I would want to buy. Maybe those will have a 50-100 year life, still just geussing though since none are really that old yet to know in real life.

Ever by a car and really get the 45MPG you were supposed to get? Most people don't, but that's the manufactors testing claims right? That kind of geussing often just does not hold up in real life!

I have 100 year life junk CDs I gave my kid, she burns them fine, keeps them in cases or carry case, well cared for. They are fading out and some have tops flaking off, after a few months these crap disks are not readable. But CDR has a 100 year life right?
I do have very old CDR disks that are perfect still. So it all just depends. Those crap ones I gave the kid are for burning an MP3 collection to listen to on a weekend trip now and toss when ready.

I think she said a few of the GOOD CDRs are also messing up now, not certian if she means the TYs I gave her, but I think she said some are flaking the printable silver tops, if so those would be my Taiyo Yuden CD-R. She does not take as good care of her disks as I do mine, but she does not abuse them either. I have not had any problems with my Taiyo Yuden CD-R yet that I know of, but mine are rarely used data disks mostly, some MP3 disks but I don't listen to them often.

[dvd3500]

Hvaing had many self made CDs not work from CD rot I only use DVD-RAM for any really important stuff where the original is in questionable condition.
I store my tapes in a cool dry place and am pleased to report that after 5 years there is hardly in degradation.
Creating DVDs from them allows you to keep the No. 1 cause of wear and tear down: putting it in the VCR.

[Jester700]

Hvaing had many self made CDs not work from CD rot I only use DVD-RAM for any really important stuff where the original is in questionable condition.
I store my tapes in a cool dry place and am pleased to report that after 5 years there is hardly in degradation.
Creating DVDs from them allows you to keep the No. 1 cause of wear and tear down: putting it in the VCR.

"CD Rot" is kind of a misnomer, since the name is based on the "laser rot" that affected laserdiscs, but they are different problems.

In any case, DVDs (blanks AND pressed) are made differently from those other formats, and are immune to those particular issues. They may have issues of their own, but assuming they'll have the issues earlier media did isn't necessarily valid.

[Cole]

Can the speed that the DVD+/-R was burned at have an effect on the life of the disc?

This discussion here raised an issue that the faster the speed of the burn, the less reliable the result (as well as going over stuff that has been discussed here).

http://www.the-mausoleum-club.org.uk/xmb/viewthread.php?tid=11376

[lenti_75]

DUDE. I have cd's burned back in 94-95...they are perfect ...

do you want more proof ???

[monobum]

Wow, my post seems to have had a snowball effect, thanks to everybody who has taken the time to help me out with this dilemma. I believe everybody has helped me out here with good points. About these VHS masters I’m talking about. Most were taped back in the eighties when I was a rookie/amateur kid in this field and some of the stuff was recorded in EP, some of the tapes have heavy mold issues (which I clean repeatedly with the GENEVA tape cleaner/rewinder), and basically are in pretty bad shape.

My point is these tapes I’m being selective of what I’m saving, and will be tossing out the tapes once I’m done. I really don’t see them lasting another 5 years much less 10 or 20. Other tapes such as family home videos, Master 1st generation Rock N Roll music bootlegs/concerts are very rare not ever available in stores and never will be I wont be throwing them away.

The tapes that I do save is it OK to store them in the plastic containers that they sell in Wallmart/Kmart type stores and put them in the closet? Of course they’ll be rewinded and stored standing up. Should I throw out the cardboard boxes of the tapes and just store the tapes? I read somewhere that the cardboard boxes helps deterioatethe tape.

About the transferring process I’m doing, it’s not crappy. I hear your pain Lordsmurf, I have seen those crappy transfer jobs. By the way your webpage digitalfaq has been a blessing!. My signal process is JVC SVH HR-S9911U S VIDEO OUT to TBC AVT8710 (When Needed) and the TBC to my Pioneer standalone 633 with HD at XP+ rec. speed. All wired with Gold A&V cables. For special tapes I do it all on My Mac with FCP/DVD Studio Pro. I make a living with post production.

Anyway would another option be transfer my VHS Masters that I care for to MINI DV tape which take Up Less Space that VHS and create a clone Master and then trash out the VHS tapes? I have access to a PRO DV Deck.

Thank you all for your time & help.
Ricky

[INFRATOM]

In my experience technology has a shorter life, I have some sony betamax tapes recorded in PAL , my machine has broken down and its like memory stuck in stone and can't watch it.

[InXess]

You 're talking store bought DVD's or DVD-R's?

Both. Pressed discs are not indestructible as compared to dye-based media. Each has it's own merits and drawbacks.

Also, a 99 year warranty is retarded to begin with. Don't base your information on something as foolish as that. And there are definitely valid reasons to keep tapes. It just happens that the reason you stated is not one of them.

You missed my sarcasm...

As I pointed out a company like Kodak (7.78 B market cap) made a claim that did not stand the test of time. Remember that they have an army of scientists (also outside US), best equipped labs, experience, knowledge, reference libraries, quality checkers, unlimited (in popular understanding) funds, commitment, industry links, government links to get needed data... etc.

Now, what do you have to make claims here (summary): no funds (in terms of research needs), few DVD/CD burners, commitment (I believe that), no lab, limited knowledge (scientific..., you are not a chemist or technologist in that field I assume), access to few libraries (including local), 0 scientists on staff, probably no scientific background (no offense...), no references etc.

This is to illustrate that if they made a mistake you are several times more likely to make one as well. Don't get me wrong, your service is valuable but it has to be taken for what it is.

So how have you arrived at (probably) 40-50 years?

Here's a link to a CD/DVD longevity study (probably one of many) http://www.itl.nist.gov/div895/gipwg/StabilityStudy.pdf

[lordsmurf]

no funds (in terms of research needs), few DVD/CD burners, commitment (I believe that), no lab, limited knowledge (scientific..., you are not a chemist or technologist in that field I assume), access to few libraries (including local), 0 scientists on staff, probably no scientific background (no offense...), no references etc. This is to illustrate that if they made a mistake you are several times more likely to make one as well. Don't get me wrong, your service is valuable but it has to be taken for what it is.

You assume too much, and are the one not qualified here. Much of the stuff you've just mentioned is not required, some of it is just silly.

Longevity is not something that can be done in a lab, it's based on extrapolation and statistical analysis from empircal data, using a valid sample size, and plenty of qualitative/quantitative data.

There is no need for a "lab" as we're not talking about those foo-foo aging tests. While interesting to read, and an extra assurance at lifespan, they are by no means all that valid for longevity.

I think you've just made up your mind that everything will die. You're a pessimist. Have fun, but don't expect the rest of the world to buy into your "end of the world" boogeymen. We have enough information to show that won't be happening.

[InXess]

Longevity is not something that can be done in a lab, it's based on extrapolation and statistical analysis from empircal data, using a valid sample size, and plenty of qualitative/quantitative data.

There is no need for a "lab" as we're not talking about those foo-foo aging tests.

well, it almost makes sense... but no, not really.

[cyflyer]

I toss out/donate the old masters, mainly because of practical reasons ie space, and also to the argument of doing further transfers later on, bear in mind that you may not have a working vhs player, or camcorder by that time.

[InXess]

I ALWAYS keep camcorder tapes as these can never be re-shot. Commercial stuff can be repurchased in one form or another so it is not critical to store every VHS tape you have ever owned.

[overloaded_ide]

to the argument of doing further transfers later on, bear in mind that you may not have a working vhs player, or camcorder by that time.

Those will still be around for another 50years I bet. When was the last Beta tape produced for a comercail movie? You scould still buy a brand new player up till a couple years ago at least. Sure they cost a fortune but you could get them. I just got a nice working Beta Recorder used not long ago from a guy that repairs TVs and VCRs. I still see a beta at an auction sometimes. Beta was never as popular as VHS and that's why it died, but if after all these years I can still get working recorders just think how long the players for VHS will still be around!
If that is a worry and you have tapes, buy 2 new VHS recorders identical now. They should last 100-200 years since you will only use them to copy tapes to DVD right. You won't be using those for everyday use like normal so they will last far longer than normal.
When the first breaks use the second new one and save the broke one for parts. When the second one breaks take the 2 and make 1 that works. When I have something I like well and works great, when I see it being faded out and sold dirt cheap I do this myself. Buy several new cheap, maybe free after rebate
Use them till they break, then use the parts of each to rebuild one.

As far as tapes. For those with the collectable or non-replacable stuff wanting to keep masters.
Your not going to watch the tapes after you make the DVDs right, just stotre them. So you can go to alot more trouble to store them safer than normal.
The main problems are Dust, Moisture, Oxidation, and thats stuff you can easily controll. Seal valueable tapes in a sealed airtight container. Put a large bag of silica gell inside to aborb any moisture. You could even go as far as to fill the container with Nitrogen like storing survival foods.
Nothing can live in pure Nitrogen so you won't get any bugs in your tapes and I dought they will mold either. Nitrogen is heavier than air or oxygen so as the container fills with nitrogen at the bottom it pushes the oxygen out the top, NO MORE oxydation of your tapes
I don't store my tapes this way but I do store other things this way. It is not expensive nor hard.

And for those that may not know the difference NO Nitrogen is NOT what they use in dragsters

[bionickaren]

as for video tape there really good if looked after, i have a vhs tape from 1979!! mum got it for me she worked in a video shop, i loved the tape played it lots in lots what happend to it? not one thing i still have it and 3 years ago i had it recorded to dvd


but dvd is the way to go i would never dream of puting a video in the bin if it was still ok i love the art work and the out size boxes all part of the fun of collecting


karen



a original vhs video from 1979!!