How do I make foolproof, universally compatible video dvds?

[sneaux]

Last summer I did an experiment in mass media production for a gymnastics summercamp. We took a lot of video and pictures and put them together into a dvd we send to the families. I've been discouraged at how some players don't play them. The parents will come back and say the menu doesn't load and the audio just beeps. I test them all on my machine but apparently I need to do more to make them compatible with everything.

I'm a pc user so I edit with premiere, encode with tmpg, author with dvd lab, and burn with nero. Audio is 192 kbps ac3 from besweet.

So what are the guidlines for making foolproof dvds.
Thanks

[BJ_M]

dont burn with nero

dont create audio with besweet

ok - neither of those are that bad ..... but if you are selling these disks, you are breaking copywrite rules regarding Dolby compression ..

to make 100% foolproof dvd's -- you need to master them to DLT tape or other approved methods using industry accepted software and then get them pressed by a replicator ..

there is NO OTHER method that is 100% for sure ..

[guns1inger]

It can't be done on your home PC.

Steps that might improve your chances include ditching Nero as your burner, and ditching BeSweet for either ffmpeggui, or preferably a certified AC3 encoder such as Sony or Surcode.

Other than that, the only path to a universally (or damn near) compatible disc is to create an image on DLT or DAT (or whatever your local presser takes) and having it thoroughly tested and then pressed. The vaguries of the manufacturing process for writable DVDs, the issue of formats and brands and write strategies mean you cannot produce a disc on your home PC and guarantee with any certainty that it will play in any given player.

[BJ_M]

guns1inger and I seem to have posted the same advice with seconds of each other ... so it much be true ...

[guns1inger]

Damn we're good

[harley2ride]

Something that will help is to only use Taiyo Yuden or Verbatim MCC media, and use +r media and bitset as -rom. But even that isn't foolproof.

[guns1inger]

bitsetting +R media gives you about the same level of compatability as using -R media. While using good brands is far better than using cheaper brands, not single brand is any more compatabile than any other. The difference between brands is quality of burn. I have used TY in the past and had a terrible time with it. My burner just didn't like it for some reason. I still use Ritek G50 discs bought in spindles of 50, and have a 100% success rate (touch wood) for both burn and play back.

[Nelson37]

Good and accurate advice, all.

For practical purposes, assuming pressed disks are just not feasable, I would ditch the menu entirely. This is just one less thing to go wrong.

Also I would author with some other prog. DVD-Lab authored video did not play on 2 of 5 test players for me, same video authored with another prog played on all 5.

You will never get 100% compatibility, but you should be able to hit 90%. What percentage failure rate did you get?

You can tell folks that it should play in most "modern" players. What that really means is cheap ones. You can also state that it will play in any reasonably modern PC, albeit one with a DVD drive. In fact, you could do a D1 res, hi-bitrate MPG1 XVCD and guarantee that it will play in any PC that does not require a hand crank.

[sneaux]

This has turned out t be very helpful. Thank you for all of your input.

I think about 1 in 10 disks didn't work. Really it would be better to say one in ten players didn't work because all the disks are exactly the same. I'm running a very ghetto DVD authoring system. I don't even want to ask how much it costs to press a dvd.

Switching to better dvd media is an option. Right now I'm using matte white TDK dvds from Cosco. I will get some Ritek G50, Taiyo Yuden, or Verbatim MCC media.

I do want to have menus. It's really the best part of the dvd. There are about a dozen 10 min videos which link back to the main menu. If I put everything in a single movie without a menu (even with chapters) it would be difficult for the kids to find what they are looking for.

I had made them on -rs because I thought they were more compatble with the average player. I will swich to +rs but how do I use +r media and bitset as -rom?

What burner should I use besides nero?

If you guys had to author on a pc, what prog would you use if not DVD Lab? And how much more compatible would my dvds be if I used a mac with idvd or dvd studio pro.

How about the audio. What is more compatible; mp2 or ac3.

Does variable bitrate encoding and constant bitrate have anything to do with compatibility. Are professional dvds constant or variable?

I really appreciate all the help you guys have given me.

[ntscuser]

I author DVD's for a video newsgroup. I encode with TMPGEnc, author with TDA, burn with TDA writing tool onto Verbatim 16x DVD-R using an NEC ND-3520A writer. Result, no compatibility issues with any player so far 'though there's always a first time.

By using Pegasys software throughout I avoid the pitfalls of using programs from different sources. The DVD writer is the biggest factor though. I binned two relatively new machines before I found a reliable model and that was only through reading the feedback reports on this website.

[sneaux]

What audio format should I use for best compatibility; mp2 or ac3?

[guns1inger]

AC3. Early on, mp2 was not part of the NTSC spec, so not all NTSC players recognise it.

[FulciLives]

I have had very good luck using TMPGEnc DVD Author.

I use it for the authoring of course and then I use it to create the IMAGE FILE then burn that IMAGE FILE with IMG BURN.

I only use 8x Taiyo Yuden DVD-R blanks or the 16x Verbatim DVD-R blanks. The Verbatim seem to be as good as the Taiyo Yuden discs. I prefer to burn at 6x speed but the best speed for the best burn has a lot I think to do with the DVD burner being used. I have a Pioneer 108 model. In the past I had a NEC that also produced good burns.

Quality media and a proper burning application are key. I also think using TMPGEnc DVD Author helps as well as it is a rock solid authoring program although compared to any flavor of DVD-Lab it is a bit "simple" but damn it works so well.

Also, as other people have said, use a good AC-3 encoder or just use LPCM audio but LPCM audio takes up a lot of space so it really is only good for a DVD that will total say 75 minutes or less. For quality AC-3 encoding on the cheap the AC-3 plug-in for TMPGEnc DVD Author is a good choice.

Also make sure your bitrates are "in order" ... some DVD players will have trouble playing back a home-made burnt DVD that has "too high" of a bitrate even if the bitrate is technically below the spec. For instance don't ever use a video bitrate higher than 8000kbps and just to be safe limit the video bitrate to 7500kbps if using LPCM audio. If using AC-3 audio then 8000kbps is fine.

Just to give you an idea ... using a CBR of 7500kbps for the video and using LPCM audio you should be able to get 65 minutes on a DVD with plently of overhead for DVD authoring.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[sneaux]

Okay so I will definately get some verbatim or Taiyo Yuden dvdrs and maybe get a nec or pioneer burner. Thanks for the info. The next question I wanted to ask was if there was any difference in compatibility issues between vbr and cbr mpeg encoding

[sneaux]

Oh...And what is bitsetting?

[Baldrick]

bitsetting: http://www.cdfreaks.com/article/150 ...first hit from google...

[FulciLives]

Oh...And what is bitsetting?

Just stick with high quality DVD-R and you don't have to worry about bitsetting.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[Noahtuck]

Oh...And what is bitsetting?

Just stick with high quality DVD-R and you don't have to worry about bitsetting.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

Bah!!

+R bitsetting all the way 8)

[lordsmurf]

The most compatible disc you will find, in terms of physical media (excluding pressed disc) is MCC DVD-R media. The metal AZO mix on a DVD-R results in stunning compatibility.

After that, you must author as close to 100% spec as you can. The only one I really know of that can do that is Ulead DVDWS2 or DVD Studio Pro, assuming you don't want to spend $1000 or more on authorware.

Be sure to burn clean too. I suggest a PRASSI-based burn engine, like RecordNow.

[slacker]

As well as Taiyo Yuden 'Made in Japan' 8x +R media (YUDEN00T02).
Flawless every time.

[BJ_M]

The most compatible disc you will find, in terms of physical media (excluding pressed disc) is MCC DVD-R media. The metal AZO mix on a DVD-R results in stunning compatibility.

After that, you must author as close to 100% spec as you can. The only one I really know of that can do that is Ulead DVDWS2 or DVD Studio Pro, assuming you don't want to spend $1000 or more on authorware.

Be sure to burn clean too. I suggest a PRASSI-based burn engine, like RecordNow.

sony's DVD architect - as far as I've test - is 100% compliant (at least in the current version)

so is Apple's products (which were based on dvd maestro - still one of the all time greats)

[slacker]

DVD Architect may be 100% compliant in terms of authoring, but I've had inconsistent results with their burning engine. "Making the DVD" to an ISO file initially rather than directly to the burner, and using ImgBurn or DVD Decrypter to write the ISO out to the burner instead works every time.

[handyguy]

If you get an authoring writer & authoring media, you're all set. You can find people on the net that have them & create a disk for you. Prices were like $1200 or something per disk last time I looked.

[Cornucopia]

So the upshot is to improve:

1. Media (Generally, higher quality is better--TY used to be Golden, don't know now)

2. Disc/Book type (DVD-R General, or DVD+R w/ROM booktype). ---You could go with DVD-R Authoring, use 3.9GB discs and improve a great deal, but by then your almost as costly as replicating($$$Burner, $$Media, low availability)

3. Burner (I'm partial to Pioneer drives myself)

4. Burning engine(Software--use one that's dedicated for DVD-Video, usually part of better DVD-Authoring apps)

5. More compliant Authoring apps (Scenarist, Maestro, DVDStudioPro, DVDProducer, DVDArchitect are good)

6. Very compliant MPEG2 video encoding (CCE, Mainconcept, TMPGEnc are tops)

7. Very compliant AC3 encoding (Surcode, SF SoftEncode/VegasAC3 encoder, Scenarist AC3 encoder)

8. Keeping bitrates from topping out extremely high

9. Keeping structure from getting too complicated (streamlining the PGC flow)


In order of importance (most to least), I'd say something like:
1, 4, 5, 2, 7, 3, 6, 8, 9

Scott

[lordsmurf]

DVD-R (Authoring) media is not as compatible as DVD-R (General) media. I don't know why that rumor is getting started, but it's completely false.

DVD-R(A) is a special kind of media made for duplication purposes, because it can store more data than a normal DVD-R(G). Both are 4.7GB, so if you don't understand what "more data" means, go look it up. It's not intended for general use, that's why the DVD-R(G) exists.

DVD-R(G) is simply referred to as "DVD-R" and is what consumers can buy in stores. DVD-R(A) is much hard to find and runs about $10-20 per disc. The DVD-R(A) drives run about $1000 each.

[Cornucopia]

Yes, Lordsmurf,

I know all about DVD-R (A), having used one for a couple of years. And I can tell you that it's NOT a rumour. I have done extensive testing of the various media types and have found that when NOTHING else would be readable (beyond pressed discs, of course), DVD-R (Authoring) discs WOULD be readable, particularly the 3.95GB size (there are 2 sizes for DVD-R(A)). I even carry around a "test suite" of discs with the identical program on it for each of the various media flavors (+/- R and RW, old RAM, new RAM--don't have duallayer made up yet) so that I can try out which works best with my clients' players.

AFA "more data" stuff, that has to do with accomodating mastering info (DDP/CMF) in the lead-in, whereas R-General media has this area pre-recorded. That capability is unique to DVD-R (A). But that's not what I was talking about.
I believe what makes DVD-R(A) most compatible is that it is,
#1 Lower track pitch (the 3.95GB), so easier for the laser to track and get a successful read.
#2 635 recording laser wavelength, so smack in the middle of the range of allowable wavelengths for readers (625-650). Much more optimal than R-General & the others, which are on the fringe. This should equate to better reflectivity, and an accurate read.
#3 It's the original recordable book type, so it's likely that even finicky/old reader firmware will have support for it grandfathered in.

You're right, it's not intended for general use. That's why I didn't recommend it, except as an academic understanding of the whole scheme of things.
And you're right about the costs.

Scott

[westbrookmedia]

Sneaux -

I am also using Premiere, but using a different burning method to do something similar to your summer camp. I distributed about 60 disks to parents of a school without one return. Beginners luck, I am sure, knowing what I know now.

A combination of good media, choosing some recommended options for the encoding (VBR btween 4 and 6), a decent burner, burning at low speed, a friends duplicator and a TON of luck produced compatible DVD's for me.

I got most of the recommendations from this forum.

[sneaux]

What is more compatible; variable bitrate or constant bitrate? What really is the difference between the two? Does variable bitrate encode more efficiently?

[Cornucopia]

In "compliant" players, both are equally as compatible. If there's some knockoff brand using non-compliant chips and firmware algorithms that are sloppy, then CBR would probably be more compatible to them.

Difference: CBR is a more "consistent" stream to the decoder, but sacrifices total bit efficiency. VBR is MUCH more efficient with bit allocation (using more bits where they're more needed--much motion, editing, detail), but the variable bitrate requires a decoder that has bigger buffers and logic to follow the stream changes (since it's inconsistent).

Generally, VBR is ~better quality for same AVERAGE bitrate, or ~smaller size for same PEAK bitrate as CBR, or both.

Scott

[sneaux]

I was thinking about getting a mac. Are mac authoring programs like dvd studio pro and idvd and mac burners generally more compatible than their pc analogues?