HDTV 1080i Monitor

[deity_me]

I was Reading the thread about HD-TV compatible and I got VERY confused.

Here's the deal
I have a Samsung DynaFlat HDTV 1080i Monitor
http://product.samsung.com/SamsungUSA/PRODUCT/20021004/TXM3281.pdf

I'm Renting an HD Terminal from my cable company.
The picture looks nice and all but am I getting real HDTV display? some of the other *TV. Is this the real deal or did I get suckered in just like other uninformed consumers?

Thanks

[ebenton]

I don't know anything about your monitor or your cable company/cable box. However, your monitor should have some sort of display, such as what video input it is viewing, the local time, etc. This display should also display the type of input it is receiving (1080i, 720p, etc.) Many cable HD boxes can be set to output a constant 1080i, 720p, or it can be set to have a varied output, and mimic the input. If it is set to always output 1080i, it will always output 1080i, even on analog channels. this 1080 is a "fake" 1080i, in that it is an analog signal or a lower-resolution digital signal "wrapped" in a 1080i signal.
My cable company (Bright House) is renting me a Scientific Atlanta HD DVR as a cable box. This DVR box can be set as described earlier.
I suggest you read your manuals and play with your devices to see what you have, then post again. Without more details, I don't think you will be able to get too much help here.

[edDV]

I was Reading the thread about HD-TV compatible and I got VERY confused.

Here's the deal
I have a Samsung DynaFlat HDTV 1080i Monitor
http://product.samsung.com/SamsungUSA/PRODUCT/20021004/TXM3281.pdf

I'm Renting an HD Terminal from my cable company.
The picture looks nice and all but am I getting real HDTV display? some of the other *TV. Is this the real deal or did I get suckered in just like other uninformed consumers?

Thanks

It's a very good set by 2002-2004 standards and even today. It doesn't have a DTV over the air tuner but will easily connect to an external unit (off air/cable/DBS) like your HDTV cable box. DTV tuners in 2002-2004 were very expensive and performed poorly vs. those of today and into the future.

Your set is designed to work well with analog (about 90% of what is broadcast) and as such will outperform many progressive only sets for NTSC interlace inputs. It has 1080 upscaling, 3:2 conversion, 480p progressive support for DVD and progressive conversion for NTSC. For this reason, a CRT makes a great transition TV until HDTV takes over a majority of the broadcasts.

Like most sets of this era and type, it only supports 1080i inputs for HDTV over analog Y, Pr, Pb connections. Later sets (and more expensive) support 720p progressive over analog component connection or off an internal DTV tuner. Not to worry much about this, cable and DBS have decided to only support 1080i for the immediate future so if your cable box outputs 720p, it is usually a conversion from 1080i anyway (ESPN-HD, local ABC and local FOX are possible exceptions).

Now on to the picture.

1080i is broadcast and transmitted at 1920x1080 resolution interlaced and at 29.97 frames per second or 59.94 fields per second in the USA . 720p is broadcast and transmitted at 1280x720 resolution interlaced and at 59.94 progressive frames per second in the USA . 1080i has good resolution for still scenes, but blurs during motion like normal NTSC. 720p maintains full resolution during motion but has a bit less resolution than 1080i during stills and low motion. That is if you have a perfect display.

Never assume the signal actually carries that much resolution from the original camera, but things are getting better from the broadcasters. Although CRT displays that display full 1920x1080 interlace resolution do exist, they are very expensive. They are so expensive that a TV station may only own one or two at critical engineering quality points.

For instance, this is a typical broadcast monitor but it can't display full 1920x1080 resolution.
http://bssc.sel.sony.com/BroadcastandBusiness/DisplayModel?m=0&p=8&sp=20073&id=14327
Even if it could, 1920x1080 resolution wouldn't be very observable on a 14" monitor.

Full resolution, full reference spec monitoring at 32" CRT size can be had for $42K list from Sony.
http://bssc.sel.sony.com/BroadcastandBusiness/DisplayModel?m=0&p=8&sp=20073&id=57474

So, you can see I'm setting you up for a bit of a letdown. Consumer TV set manufaturers talk about receiving 1080i or 720p, they often say nothing about "native display resolution" for a CRT or projector. Although you do get 1080 vertical lines, your set is most likely capable of at most 800-1000 lines of horizontal resloution. Still this is a huge improvement over 400-550x486 (10%+ overscanned) for a typical high end NTSC set.


Now let's talk about HD Ready

Those of us that that bought sets before fall-winter 2004 were told our sets were "HD Ready". We paid even more for extra analog component YUV, VGA and/or DVI inputs so that our new "HD Ready" set would work with DTV tuners, HD cable/satt boxes, HD Tivos, HD DVD, etc.

Then in 2004 the concept of the broadcast flag was introduced. A specially encrypted "HDCP" connection was going to be required for flagged broadcasts to be received as a high definition signal. Otherwise, they told us, resolution would be limited to 704x480 for those broadcasts.

"HDCP" would only be available on new sets with DVI or HDMI connectors and would not be retroactivly compatible.

Fortunately the first attempt at the broadcast flag was blocked in the courts, but the legislative pressure continues.
http://www.eff.org/IP/Video/HDTV/?f=20020117_eff_bpdg_overview.html
Call your congressman and keep this from happening.

Then, it became known that the future HD DVD players will be restricted to normal DVD resolution*, unless the monitor had fully licensed and active HDCP encryption support. That means all of us that bought "HD Ready" sets before fall 2004 will be locked out.

* there is some talk about a compromise analog output of 940x540p resolution for early TV sets but not all will work or have proper filtering at this this quarter resolution.

OK intro done.

[deity_me]

There are no options on my TV to see what the input is and but my HD Terminal is a Scientific Atlanta Explorer 3250HD if that means anything to you. The picture format is set to fixed 1080i according to the HD terminal

[junkmalle]

Note the specs say "up to 800 lines horozontal resolution."

[deity_me]

Note the specs say "up to 800 lines horozontal resolution."

I'm sorry so what does that mean?

[edDV]

There are no options on my TV to see what the input is and but my HD Terminal is a Scientific Atlanta Explorer 3250HD if that means anything to you. The picture format is set to fixed 1080i according to the HD terminal

That should be correct for that set but you must be using the Y, Pr, Pb (red green blue) cable set to make it work. Also try to get the new Sci Atlanta 8300 series HD tuner from your cable company. It is much better.

If your "3D digital comb filter" is as good as the one on my Philips HD set, you will get a better analog NTSC channel picture using the TV tuner from coax input. Digital SD and HDTV channels should come from the Y, Pr, Pb input from the Scientific Atlanta cable tuner.

[deity_me]

Let my restate my question b/c i think i'm getting lost here
Does my TV have the ability to display HDTV? or is it one of those "Compatible" that can take HDTV signal but display them at standard tv or EDTV resolution. I mean the picture quality looks good but I really have nothing to compare it against.

[junkmalle]

Note the specs say "up to 800 lines horozontal resolution."

I'm sorry so what does that mean?

I suspect what that means is the dot pitch of the CRT gives you an effective on-screen resolution of about 800x600. Well below 720p (1280x720) and far below 1080i (1920x1080). So you're in EDTV territory.

[edDV]

Let my restate my question b/c i think i'm getting lost here
Does my TV have the ability to display HDTV? or is it one of those "Compatible" that can take HDTV signal but display them at standard tv or EDTV resolution. I mean the picture quality looks good but I really have nothing to compare it against.

Standard NTSC would be ~ 330x486 as broadcast or up to 550x480 off a high quality camcorder.

EDTV is that plus 704x480 progressive off DTV and/or 720x480 progressive off a DVD player if Y, Pr, Pb cable is used and everything is switched to progresive mode.

Your set can do both of those plus:
display 1080i HDTV at "up to" 800x1080 interlace.
upscale NTSC to ~ 330-550x1080 interlace or progressive*

*NTSC to progressive conversion probably has lots of motion artifacts.

PS: and yes, dot pitch will limit vertical resolution. If you can see all the scan lines on a diagonal sharp edge at 1080i, then you have a fine dot pitch. If the scan lines disappear at 1080i then you have effectively less than 1080 viewable lines even though all are scanned.

[deity_me]

So my TV isnt the HDTV people are raving about?

[edDV]

So my TV isnt the HDTV people are raving about?

Depends which HDTV they are raving about. It is in the lower HDTV class.
and didn't sell for $6,000 -60,000

[junkmalle]

Your set can do both of those plus:
display 1080i HDTV at "up to" 800x1080 interlace.

It uses an invar shadow mask display. If it had a dot pitch small enough to handle 1080 vertically it would be able to do ~1400 horizontally. It wouldn't make sense to artificially limit the horizontal resolution -- even the cheapest ($100) computer monitors can do 1280x1024 these days so the electronics are dirt cheap.

So I think we can safely assume the CRT itself can only resolve around 800x600. You can't paint more lines than the dot pitch can resolve, you'll get horrible moire patterns. So the electronics probably scale everything to 800x600.

[deity_me]

What I meant to say was this TV isnt the "normal" HDTV and isnt taking close to full advantage of the HDTV service i'm paying for.

[edDV]

True about dot pictch, and 16x9 1080i on a 4x3 tube would limit "displayed" vertical resolution even more.

Even so, these sets look alot better than a standard TV.

[junkmalle]

What I meant to say was this TV isnt the "normal" HDTV and isnt taking close to full advantage of the HDTV service i'm paying for.

Yes, in either case (edDV, or mine) you're not getting the full benefit of a 1080i HDTV signal on that TV.

[edDV]

What I meant to say was this TV isnt the "normal" HDTV and isnt taking close to full advantage of the HDTV service i'm paying for.

I wouldn't go that far. I have a similar Philips set and it is a much improved picture. A 1280x720 set will cost you ~$2500-4000. A 1920x1080 capable model will cost you upwards of $9000.

I like a CRT for the transition period. I'd get a big plasma if theater seating for a large group was a priority.

[gshelley61]

This is why I bought a DLP set a couple of years ago. 1280x720p native, and can actually display an HD picture (unlike the CRT tube "HD Ready" TV's like the poster has). It's been a great toy to own, and is very enjoyable to watch. Prices have recently come way down on the DLP and LCD sets.

In fact, there are some 1920x1080p LCD and DLP displays being made now... it shouldn't be much longer before they become affordable.

[BJ_M]

There are no options on my TV to see what the input is and but my HD Terminal is a Scientific Atlanta Explorer 3250HD if that means anything to you. The picture format is set to fixed 1080i according to the HD terminal

you can change the output res of the 3250 to any HD format ...

while the unit is OFF , press and hold the menu and info buttons (top two buttons) untill the set up screen shows up and follow the advanced menu ..

you can see at any time what is being broadcast by using the info screen while the unit is running -- it is on page 21 i recall , or around there ..

press the select button on the front of the unit untill the mail light goes on or flashes (depending on cable company) and then hit info .... page 5 is the most importaint as it is your signal strenth for HD (but not always accurite, specially on the 8xxx pvr units (HD))

[edDV]

His monitor can only handle 480i, 480p and 1080i

[handyguy]

Specs:
Video
• 4:3 DynaFlat™ HDTV Anti-Distortion/Anti-Glare CRT
• Digital TV High Definition Monitor
• ProPicture™ 3-Stage Video Enhancement
– Total DSP (Digital Signal Processing), Converts
Standard Analog TV Signals to Digital, Compensates
for Varying Signal Strengths
– ProChip™ Plus Progressive Scan Display
– Defining Filter 3 Line Combing Technology
• Velocity Scan Modulation
Convenience
• 2 Sets of Dual Digital HD Component
1080i/480p/480i Jacks
• 3:2 Pull Down
• 1 S-Video Input
• 1 Side & 3 Rear A/V Inputs
• 1 Rear A/V Monitor Output
• Universal Remote
• Side speaker Design
Audio
• 20 Watts Audio Output
• 2-Way Sound System

I noticed it has 3:2 pulldown instead of 4:3, so how does regular cable look?

[edDV]

3:2 pulldown means that 29.97 interlaced film based inputs are detected, inverse telecine applied and then the resulting 23.94 progressive frame is repeated often in a 323232 pattern to make a 59.94 frame per second progressive display.

4:3 refers to aspect ratio

"Defining Filter 3 Line Combing Technology" will make analog cable look better but a 3D comb filter is better.
http://members.aol.com/ajaynejr/vidcomb.htm