Studio9/DVDAut user->Vegas6/DVD Architect3 for first time

[jg0001]

[this regards setting automatic chapters based on scene breaks in DVAVI video]

So.. I'm trying to figure out if Sony's Vegas 6 is the next best step for me. I do have ONE issue though that I can't seem to find an answer for:

In Pinnacle Studio 9 plus, the video (DV-AVIs from my miniDV camcorder) is imported and broken into scenes based on the date/timecodes, so that each start and stop on the camcorder will make a new "scene" when the video is brought into Studio. I could then have studio AUTOMATICALLY create CHAPTER points for EVERY scene dropped into the movie to be output. I then typically have it 'build' a DVD file structure and then import the result into TMPG's DVD Author and have it pick up the chapter marks automatically. This is a BIG DEAL when dealing with home footage, some of which may have 30-50 chapters. I do NOT want to find them manually.

I see no method either in Vegas 6 or DVD Architect 3.0 to automatically create chapter points based on the original footage's timecodes NOR automatically based on X chapters every 5 minutes or so. This would be a HUGE drawback for me as I often like to just drop the FULL set of footage into Studio, output it as a DVD, then clean up and reauther with DVD Author for burning.

Any help here or should I just expect to MANUALLY find all my clip start and ends every time from now on if I want to use Vegas/DVD Architect?

[guns1inger]

I don't have it all in front of me, so I can't give you an answer right now, but I do have a question.

Why spend large sums of money of a very good editing application and a fair DVD authoring system, only to author a disk that you are going to reauthor ? Your process seems flawed and pointless. Why not just edit your video properly in Vegas, output compliant assets, then author correctly once in the tool of your choice ?

[jg0001]

First off, I am one of FEW people who don't use multiple programs to get a job done - even a simple one.

Perhaps you should re-read my question. Assume the task is as SIMPLE as follows:

(1) import 1 hour of mini-DV tape as DV-AVI over firewire (Scenalzyer)
- assume that 1 hour has 30 or MORE scene breaks scattered throughout the tape (only marking is a distinct date and time change)

(2) get the footage from (1) onto a DVD with a SIMPLE menu, including a CHAPTER menu for EVERY scene break, with motion menus (10 secs or so)

This is little more than putting the tape onto a DVD with a nice menu of every start/stop of the recording. Using Pinnacle Studio, this is all pretty easy. Using Vegas/DVD Architect, the BIG TIME SUCK would be using DVD Architect and MANUALLY finding all the scene starting points. Frankly, I don't see why a program this 'prosumer' would lack a feature found on a $50 Studio program.

Currently:
(1) I transfer the video using Scenalyzer, not that I couldn't just use Studio 9, but I find Studio clunky at times.
(2) I then open Studio 9 and select the video; it automatically breaks it into scenes/chapters
(3) I drop the ENTIRE set of scenes onto the timeline
(4) I add a simple plain DVD menu and let it create chapter points for every scene automatically (the actual menu doesn't matter at this point)
(5) I 'author' the DVD to the hard drive; it is at this point that the AVI is encoded as MPEG-2 with AC-3 audio
(6) I open TMPG DVD Author and 'import' the DVD Video from (5). This keeps ALL of the chapter points, but doesn't keep the menu.
(7) I tidy it up with my own menus and layout and author the DVD to the hard drive anew; no real encoding is needed other than for the motion menus
(8) I burn the result

Now the above looks complicated, but if Studio could do motion menus and was more stable, I would use it. As it stands, TMPG DVD Author is very simple and nice so I use that instead.

So, all that said, what is the Vegas/DVD Architect method? Again, the BIG time issue revolves around picking out the scene breaks EXACTLY by timecode. I don't want to do it manually.

[BJ_M]

when you capture using vegas, make sure you have scene break on ... thats all

[jg0001]

One more thing. For the purpose of the above, assume I don't "EDIT" the video at ALL.

[jg0001]

when you capture using vegas, make sure you have scene break on ... thats all

What if the file is already in DV-AVI form (i.e. already captured)? And how does DVD-Architect know where the scene breaks are? I do NOT want to have a file captured, with 'scene' breaks, if that simply means it will create a separate file for every scene.

[guns1inger]

Buy a dvd recorder with a firewire input., Most of these will give you a menu broken down by scene/date stamp

[BJ_M]

when you capture using vegas, make sure you have scene break on ... thats all

What if the file is already in DV-AVI form (i.e. already captured)? And how does DVD-Architect know where the scene breaks are? I do NOT want to have a file captured, with 'scene' breaks, if that simply means it will create a separate file for every scene.

then it cant do it -- nor can 100,000$ NLE 's for that mater ..

[jg0001]

Buy a dvd recorder with a firewire input., Most of these will give you a menu broken down by scene/date stamp

Well this has been the least valuable set of input I have heard. I am quite content with the setup I use now, I was just hoping a "more powerful" program would also have the same flexibility and ease of use when it comes to so simple a task.

It's clear you have your ego wrapped up in your NLE choice and anyone using a lesser program may as be using 'toys'. A simple, "No, vegas / DVD architect" can't edit video that way", would have worked. I've come to expect more from the users on this forum.

[guns1inger]

Horses for courses. Forget Vegas/DVDA. It is aimed at a different market to you, where this type of 'feature' is not required. And don't start with "but my $50 software can do it, so why can't a $500 piece of software do it". Your $50 software is aimed at Joe Sixpack and his home DV camera, and tries to keep everything nice and simple. Vegas is aimed at small pro and semi-pro outfits who actually do edit and assemble footage, not simply capture it on the way through to a $60 authoring package. Apples and Oranges.

[jg0001]

Horses for courses. Forget Vegas/DVDA. It is aimed at a different market to you, where this type of 'feature' is not required. And don't start with "but my $50 software can do it, so why can't a $500 piece of software do it". Your $50 software is aimed at Joe Sixpack and his home DV camera, and tries to keep everything nice and simple. Vegas is aimed at small pro and semi-pro outfits who actually do edit and assemble footage, not simply capture it on the way through to a $60 authoring package. Apples and Oranges.

Why do some people need to enjoy complexity to keep their egos stoked? It is the entry of the consumer into the video editting market that will make the programs better and easier for everyone involved. Difficult <> good. Difficult = soon to be obsolete. A good feature is a good feature, regardless if the program costs $50, $500 or $5000.

[BJ_M]

i guess you have not used avid much --

sony makes a lower priced version of vegas which is aimed more at the consumer market ..

people who do work with video for a living require more control and features - vegas (now the top selling NLE) offers that ...

[harley2ride]

Some other good semi-professional solutions would be: Vegas 5, Adobe Premiere 6.5, Vegas Movie software, Adobe Premiere Elements.

[thefiddler]

jg0001, your arguing and frustration are pointless. As was already said, its apples and oranges. It seems obvious to all of us who do use Vegas or other advanced NLE's, that you simply don't need Vegas or DVDA. You've got a system that works the way you want it to, why are you looking for something else? You use 3 programs, maybe you were looking to cut it down to 2? I don't know, but regardless, if this is typical of the work you are doing YOU DON'T NEED VEGAS, because it's for much more advanced stuff than what you're doing. It has nothing to do with being difficult to use (in fact it's by far the easiest NLE in my oppinion), it's just advanced. The more advanced sofware gets, the more open-ended it must be. This is to enable the user to accomplish things that even the designers of the program had never imagined. It's not that the complexity or difficulty is better, it's just more advanced, more capable, more accomadating to a wider range of creativity.

It sounds to me like you have a fairly specific task you want to accomplish. It also sounds like you've found some software that accomplishes that task in a simple way, which you know and understand well. To me this says that any kind of upgrade would be pointless, especially since it probably doesn't do things exactly the way you want it to, or exactly the way you're used to. More pricey, advanced software doesn't mean it includes everything that cheaper software does.

Still, if you think you're convinced you need to try something more advanced. I highly recomend you go to the Sony Media Software website http://www.sonymediasoftware.com and download a trail of whatever you think is necessary. I highly recomend you go with Vegas Movie Studio+DVD rather than the full (higher-end) Vegas+DVD suite. Movie Studio will be easier for you to learn and work with. Then if after 30 days you like it, buy it. If you think you'd rather have something better, download the trials of Vegas & DVD Architect.

Remember though, Vegas & Movie Studio are EDITING programs though. They have capture and scene detection abilities, but that's not what they are about. They are designed to edit video, to compile various video, text, pictures, audio, etc. into one final video; not to be a simple click-through, 3-step, put your own home video on DVD, type of thing.

[jg0001]

It's simple. The "problem" with Vegas+DVDA is that they lack the integration to take a project from start to finish. Period. The item I mentioned (about scene detection -> chapter markers) is not rocket science. Given the hundreds of other features vegas has, it is missing this one crucial step for me to make the switch. I don't ALWAYS just spit out a DVD from raw footage, but I do always want to start OUT with the video arranged so that I don't have to find all the chapters manually. Bleh.

My frustration stems from seeing more helpful and courteous responses on gamefaqs than in this particular forum.

[edDV]

It's simple. The "problem" with Vegas+DVDA is that they lack the integration to take a project from start to finish. Period. The item I mentioned (about scene detection -> chapter markers) is not rocket science. Given the hundreds of other features vegas has, it is missing this one crucial step for me to make the switch. I don't ALWAYS just spit out a DVD from raw footage, but I do always want to start OUT with the video arranged so that I don't have to find all the chapters manually. Bleh.

My frustration stems from seeing more helpful and courteous responses on gamefaqs than in this particular forum.

I just spent the day editing and authoring a 22 minute travel video. It's not done yet but it's getting close. To get to 22 minutes I used source material from 3 MiniDV tapes. First step was to log the tapes for capture so that I didn't have to capture all three hours. Still, 89+ minutes were captured using camcoder "scene" break data with Vegas. That resulted in a bin with over 200 clips.

I could have used Scenalyzer to break scenes by optical detection instead or any of these programs http://www.mandy.com/1/vendor2.cfm?tc=446&ar=
but I didn't intend to use all clips since many were multiple takes.

Of the 200 clips about ~90 were selected for my 22 minute video. Even then, I would have never thought to have 90 chapters on the DVD.

Clips are not scenes. It takes many edited clips to make a scene by my way of thinking. A scene might be a person unloading bags from a car, tipping a bellman and walking through the door to reception. That might take 8-12 clips and 4-6 audio tracks to make that scene. Even then I doubt that I would need a chapter point just for that scene.

In the end, this 22 minute video needed ~120 color corrected camcorder clips, ~ 75 more dialog and effects audio clips, several title and graphics overlays and only 7 chapter points for the DVD.

The point is for most of us, a chapter point comes pretty high in the outline and is several steps up from a clip or even a scene. I think my project is more typical for Vegas users. If you don't need that level of flexibility, save your money.

You have a point that it would be a simple feature to add. If enough people request it, I'm sure the team in Madison will get it in a future release if there is enough demand.

Now I do agree with you that auto-chapter points at a fixed time interval should be in there as a high pritority.

[jtoolman2000]

You need to get through your head that SCENES are generally NOT CHAPTERS. A scene as was described earlied may contain any # of clips or scenes edited to a final clip. You also say you do not need to edit??? Man you must really be good at shooting or maybe you do not care much about your output.

Actually, you should simply stay with studio 9. Auto scene detection, drop ALL your detected clips on the time line and author with auto chapter which will create capter buttons for each scene or clip. You will end up with dozens and dozens of chapters on your menu which means a chapter may only be a few seconds long. Ridiculous!

[jg0001]

Is the concept so hard? Do I have to describe it to you like a 5 year old?

Two things I may do, typically:
(1) Original 'archive' of DV tape back out to DVD, no edits, with chapters for each on/off -- yes, I don't need Vegas for this.. no #@#@. This is my personal master.

(2) Edited footage, but with scenes already broken down (same as in 1) for easier selection. I can drop 6 hours of footage onto a timeline and quickly rip it to pieces without having to search for each starting frame of a scene NOR load 2 dozen separate files (i.e. a few large AVIs each witgh their own scn like file which contains the scene breaks).

It's THAT simple. I never say what I WOULD do or that I never edit the footage, only that I was hoping to find a better way to organize the footage I am working with, similar to what my el'cheapo Studio can do.

[guns1inger]

And is it so hard for you to understand that Vegas is not the package to suit your particular needs. You can bitch about it all you wan't, but that isn't going to solve your problem. You don't like it, fine. Don't use it. But getting bent out of shape about it isn't going to change anything. You will have the same success if you just close your eyes and wish really, really hard.

[jg0001]

You're a real piece of work gun. First off, I only got bent out of shape at YOU and the few others with nothing but snarky comments. A simple, "no vegas can't do that" or "it can't do that, but instead you may find this workaround to suit your needs" ... as opposed to "go back to the retail toys, newb" which, effectively, if what you are trying to say, you just lack the balls to say it.

[guns1inger]

What I have said, consistently, is that Vegas is aimed at a particular market that does not have the same requirements that you seem to think are missing. It does not support the method in which you like to work, so perhaps you need to look elsewhere. Everyone has tried to help you find a way to get the outcome you wan't, but you have bitched about it everytime. Accept that you haven't found the answer you'd hoped for and either look elsewhere, or wait for the next version. Maybe it'll get on the Vegas wishlist and be there then.

[jtoolman2000]

Ok I see what you are trying to do. Maybe the reason no one seems to understand is that this is not the usual way people handle video and editing. I really do not believe the say Studio 9 can capture , asing scene detection ( you keep using Chapters - that is incorrect ) and then allow you to burn that raw footage to a DVD-r for archiving. I am not 100% if it saves the markers that is placed at each scene break. Tha info is stored in one of the project files when the project is saved for later edit. So when you decide to re load that raw capture back for editing it will have to detect the breaks once again. It only takes a minute of two to redetect them and I don't see it as an issue.

[lordsmurf]

o "go back to the retail toys, newb" which, effectively, if what you are trying to say, you just lack the balls to say it.

Such a derrogatory tone isn't necessary, but yes, that's essentially the scenario you find yourself in. And it happens to all of us at some point in time, with one topic or another.

What you want requires programming that is mostly unneeded with the software you're requesting.

This is no different than people that think authoring software should encode their video, or that a "burning" tool should both encode and author all in one broad sweep.

While a few pieces of cheap consumer software will clearly cater to the newbie crowd demanding such things, advanced programs are not going to waste time coding features that would like serve to only (A) create overly complex software code, thus higher potential for instability, and (B) simply not be used by the more advanced users.

Vegas is an NLE, Architect is authoring software. They can loosely communicate and cooperate when needed. But this is advanced software. It's meant to edit, not import DV and export a nifty list of chapter selections for authorware.

You already have the tool with this feature, made for people like yourself: Pinnacle Studio. Sure, it's crappy software, but that's what happens when you try to cram everything into one program.

There are MANY THINGS I wish were more integrated. But that's not how it works, and I understand why it is that way. I just suck it up and get the work done, using the tools I know work, regardless of the number of steps. In the end, it performs as desired.

[thefiddler]

no vegas can't do that