Is This Legal ?

[dimoutlook]

I’m particularly addicted to the Sci Fi channels TV movies, however I have to work when there on TV. What I do is record them to my hard disk and use TemGenc plus to make a celltimes.txt file with the chapter points just after the commercials, Then use ifoedit to make a dvd-rw disk, what I have is a dvd that I can skip the commercials on, someone has told me that this is illegal and that I can not bypass any content of the program copyright. I record over the disk for the next movie so the movie that I’ve watched is erased, so why is this illegal?


Thank you for any advice

Dimoutlook

[waheed]

You are allowed to record TV programs for the purpose of timeshifting. So you can record them the way you are doing now, provided you watch them and delete or record over them at a later date. Perfectly legal IMO.

Your "friend" obviously doesn't know about timeshifting.

[dimoutlook]

Thank You, Waheed that clears up the matter for me

[celtic_druid]

Should point out that timeshifting isn't legal everywhere in the world.

Anyway I believe that the point was that it is illegal to skip the ads since it is a breach of contract or whatever.

[dphirschler]

Well, you had to watch the ads in order to make the chapter points, right? So you didn't really skip them.


Darryl

[BobK]

Anyway I believe that the point was that it is illegal to skip the ads since it is a breach of contract or whatever.

Actually I think that's just a claim that Ted Turner made a in a speech a couple years ago. Obviously not breach of contract since there is no contract (a contract requires agreement from both parties- exactly what have you agreed to?). And if it was illegal then you wouldn't be allowed to go to the bathroom while an ad was running.

[countzer0]

In my experience, if you have to ask whether it is legal, then it is probably not.

[adam]

Your friend isn't exactly right but he brings up a legitimate argument.

The right to timeshift was read into Fair Use in the Betamax decision and back then timeshifting devices were basically limited to regular vcrs. The court actually considered people skipping commercials but they noted that it was only possible through linear editing (pausing recording) in which case they were still watching the commercials.

Now with new technology like Tivo which can automatically skip all commercials for an entire season of programming, this issue is being revisited. Tivo is currently involved in litigation over this and its possible that skipping commercials in your time shifted material will be deemed a copyright infringement.

So you can definitely time shift your material using your computer and for the time being you can also edit out commercials. In the future you may legally be prohibited from editing out the commercials, at least in any sort of automatic method.

There is a logical reason for this. OTA broadcasting only exists because they can sell ad time. You basically pay for the right to view it by subjecting yourself to the commercials.

[ROF]

Your "friend" obviously doesn't know about timeshifting.

Actually, his friend knows quite a bit. In 2001 the US Courts have ruled that removal of commercials is a violation reproduction rights under the Copyright act of 1984 and the DMCA.

It is illegal to record and remove commercials because you have "edited" the original broadcasting and are no longer protected under fair use laws.

Stupid? Perhaps, but it is illegal to remove commercials while timeshifting.

You can timeshift for the purpose of watching broadcasting at a later date. Multiple viewing or even giving a copy of this timeshift to someone else is also considered illegal.

[dimoutlook]

Let Me get this right, I can keep Victorieas Secret commercials! and skip the Luv pullups.
Thanks to all who answered, I diden't know it was such a controversy for the ad business.

Dimoutlook

[adam]

ROF could you please cite the case you are talking about. I have never heard of such a ruling and I wonder why Tivo would be involved in identical litigation right now if there was already a Supreme Court ruling on this. I don't see how the DMCA has anything to do with this unless you had to break encryption to do the editing.

As far as I know, this issue has never even been heard by the US Supreme Court. Like I said, the issue is before an appellate court as we speak.

I just did a lexis search and pulled up the entire 2001 Supreme Court docket. None of those cases had anything to do with time shifting.

[ROF]

Sorry, Newmark Vs. TBS.

The case, while it did remove replayTV from the business due to bankruptcy, it also has helped the P2P networks in several litigations since then in the contributory infringement field.

Personally, I think that once the signal is broadcast into your home, you should have the right to watch it anyway you wish. Archiving should be illegal as it's copyright infringment to do so, but removal of commercials should not be illegal. If I miss the first 15 minutes of a TV show, I can rewind, watch it while fast forwarding through the commercials and then continue to watch the show. I pay an $6 a month to have a device (DVR) in my livingroom that allows this. In my opinion, that's no different then if I were to timeshift the entire show and fast forward through those same commercials.

[adam]

ROF please read that case again because I think you really misunderstood that holding.

First off, the case was decided in 2002 and in a Federal district court in California. So at the most its holding would only apply to the ninth circuit.

But they didn't even make a ruling regarding time-shifting in that case. That case involved Replaytv customers who filed for declatory action to determine whether their use of the machines to skip commercials was copyright infringement. But Replaytv was already joined with Tivo in litigation on that exact same issue. That is the Tivo case I was talking about. So all the court did in Newmark was rule that they Plaintiff's had presented a case or controversy, thus it could not be dissmissed, and joined it with the present litigation.

Like I said, this issue is still being litigated so there is no answer at present.

[ROF]

Well, that's some positive news. I'd like to see the option of commercial free TV for paying customers. My DVR is capable of this, although i have to pause recording or fast forward through commercials. In either case, it's not a big deal, but considering the price I pay for cable television, it would be nice to have commercial free viewing. If you count the amount of people on just my block who pay for cable for one year I'd bet it's more than my entire city rakes in for property taxes.

[Gregg]

You can do wahtever you want with your TV broadcast as long as you keep it for yourself at home. Don't ask or tell your friend/s. This way nobody will know which makes this legal/illegal discussion totally irrelevant.

Have fun!

[abc-123]

Well, you had to watch the ads in order to make the chapter points, right? So you didn't really skip them.


Darryl

This cracked me up. I never thought of that. A damn fine point!!!

@adam - Rock on, brotha!

[CaptainVideo]

Don't ask or tell your friend/s. This way nobody will know which makes this legal/illegal discussion totally irrelevant.

Well, I think it's irrelevant because as Adam states there is no definitive answer yet. But that wouldn't/couldn't stop the MPAA or broadcast stations from civilly suing you if they found out.

[Gregg]

That was my point - they can't find out unless you tell somebody or they see you.

[waheed]

But that wouldn't/couldn't stop the MPAA or broadcast stations from civilly suing you if they found out.

I think the MPAA have bigger problems to deal with, like going after DVD Piracy, Dowloading copyrighted movies from the internet etc.. This is the mass problem thay are concentrating on rather than to bother with someone recording from a TV for their personal use.

[adam]

There are plenty of things you can get away with in the privacy of your home, but I don't think that makes their legality any less relevent.

Even if people are entirely shielded from suit when it comes to how they time-shift, its legality still has an effect on them because it determines which products are allowed in the marketplace. I bet alot of Tivo owners will be upset if they are no longer able to skip commercials.

[crazy14muzic]

Dish network advertises skipping commercials with their dvr system.

[thevoelk]

Adam, if TiVO is found illegal, what happens to the people who paid the one-time upfront service fee? I'm thinking of getting one, but this doesn't look good for TiVo, and I don't want to pay the money upfront and in two months not be able to do what I bought it for. The MPAA is going to cry the same argument of "perfect digital copies that can be easily traded across the Interent".

[mzellers]

[quote="ROF"]

In 2001 the US Courts have ruled that removal of commercials is a violation reproduction rights under the Copyright act of 1984 and the DMCA.

Hmmm...

I wonder if you could make the argument that since the commercials are not part of the copyrighted work that removing them does not violate the rights of the copyright owner.

If anyone's rights are being violated, it is that of the station transmitting the program.

Note too that the commercials themselves are copyrighted.

It would put you in the position of being prosecuted for NOT copying a copyrighted work.


Mark Z.

[junkmalle]

Without timeshifting you wouldn't see the show or the ads. So any ads you might watch while time shifting are at net plus for the advertisers. Your doing both the broadcaster and the advertisers a favor!

[b1tchm4gn3t]

Without timeshifting you wouldn't see the show or the ads. So any ads you might watch while time shifting are at net plus for the advertisers.

That is EXACTLY how I see this as well.

[adam]

thevoelk: If Tivo lost this suit they would be enjoined from offering any kind of automatic skip feature. They would most likely be given a phase out period to remove it from their equipment. How they handled their customer complaints and demands would just be their problem. I've never used Tivo but looking online it seems the commercial skip feature was disabled but can be unlocked with a hack. Does someone who has Tivo know for sure whether you can even skip commercials with it by default?

junkmalle: I'm sure broadcasters would love to get the Betamax ruling overturned but I don't really see what that has to do with this issue. The argument is not that one shouldn't be able to time-shift, but rather that they shouldn't be able to skip commercials in the process. The bottom line is that if you want to watch the program at all you have to subject yourself to the ads that made that program possible. No this doesn't mean gluing yourself to your seat...advertisers know that people generally ignore commercials as much as possible. But in 1 hr of normal viewing you are going to see at least some parts of some commercials and that is what advertisers pay for and that's what pays the tv station's bills.

BTW: The lawsuit is in regards to automatic skipping functions. When using it you never see any commercials at all. From the advertiser's point of view they wouldn't care whether you watched the program in real time, via time-shifting, or not at all. Either way you don't see their ads. If enough people use this service there will be no point in advertisers buying such ad time, and then there will be no programming at all.

[junkmalle]

in 1 hr of normal viewing you are going to see at least some parts of some commercials and that is what advertisers pay for and that's what pays the tv station's bills.

My point is that if you are using time shifting to watch a show that you wouldn't watch otherwise, then there is no loss to the broadcaster or advertiser if you skip the ads. It's not a zero sum game.

I believe the ad skip function of Tivo simply skips ahead 60 seconds, or skips to the next fade out/in. Fixed time skips could easily be defeated (at least in part) by random length ads. Skipping to the next fade could be defeated by not fading. Otherwise Tivo has no idea what's an ad vs. what's the show.

[adam]

My point is that if you are using time shifting to watch a show that you wouldn't watch otherwise, then there is no loss to the broadcaster or advertiser if you skip the ads. It's not a zero sum game.

I don't think such a show exists. Everything gets re-run. If you miss it once the station hopes you will watch it later in the week or even later in the year. Advertisers buy ads during re-runs too. If you time-shift and remove commercials then you got everything you wanted out of their service and probably won't watch it again any time soon, or will at least be less inclined to do so. Meanwhile the advertisers and broadcasters got nothing.

Besides the argument is that people will use time-shifting specifically to skip commercials, not to actualy enable them to see something they otherwise would have missed. Someone above just said that is the only reason they would get Tivo. Come on be honest. If you could watch tv more or less as normal and just not have to ever see the commercials you'd do it right? Well DVRs like Tivo can grant you that ability. That's what broadcasters are afraid of, systematic skipping of commercials, not time-shifting.

[jntaylor63]

Here's my 2 cents. If its broadcasted free over the "public" airways; record it, enjoy it and don't give it away or try to sell it. The FCC says that the airwaves belong to the people and its public. (Thats why it must protect us from all the smut.)

If its over cable or DSS and you are paying for it, record it, enjoy it and don't try to see it or give away copies.

If recording TV is killing the producers, why are TV Shows on DVD selling so well?

Keep doing the above before all recording devices are made illegal.

[cpotoso]

Here's my 2 cents. If its broadcasted free over the "public" airways; record it, enjoy it and don't give it away or try to sell it. The FCC says that the airwaves belong to the people and its public. (Thats why it must protect us from all the smut.)
[...]

Exactly! The airwaves have been licenced to the stations. Within the right they have to use our spectrum of RF they also have some limitations on their recourses and to their rights too. Again: the broadcasters have been granted a privilege to use a frequency domain that belongs to the public, hence they do not have full control on what we can or can't do. If their business model is broken (because people skip commercials, go to the bathroom, switch channels, etc) then it is their problem.

Now, if you want to distribute their content, that's of course a different issue...