Need to know this answer about home DVD Recorders

[kinyo]

Hi everyone, recently I purchased the Panasonic DVD recorder from Circuit City and to my surprise the quality for DVD isnt too much more advanced then standard VHS. Similar to VCRs DVD recorders have an XP mod (1 hour high quality) SP, LP, EP just like VCRs. However since most of the things I will be recording are movies and sports, I need to use SP and LP mode so I can get 2 - 4 hour recording time.

Now even with SP mode, the quality is not what I expected. I dont know if this term applies to video, but the movies that are recorded look like they dont have anti aliasing. Every shadow in the background doesnt smoothly fade, you can see every single layer that gets darker and darker, looks like Nintendo 64 graphics. I recorded the day after tomorrow movie and everytime the lightning flashed the whole screen really got pixelated badly for half a second.

So my question is are all DVD recorders for the home (well, and PC) have this same distortion due to compression to fit a movie onto a DVD disc, or does the DVD recorder I bought have a poor video card that cannot smooth out the images? I tried recording movies with my PC but I cannot find any software that I like. The only one that comes close is dvdsanta but I hate widescreen mode so if I use 4:3 it really closes into the picture and makes it look way too large. Thanks

*EDIT* I also have taken a few screenshots of the distortions I am seeing.

check out this first screenshot that shows you the distortion and non anti aliasing effect:

(link removed by origonal author)

If you look at his face below his left eye that is the distortion, its not there the whole time but little distortions flash up in a split second that are noticeable to me. If you look at the background though, that is always visible, you can see how the shadow of the ceiling isnt smooth. I would have provided better examples but I think you get the idea.

Now this next screenshot shows how the whole freaking screen goes completely pixelated everytime the lightning in the movie struck:

(link removed by origonal author)

That screenshot doesnt even need an explaination. So my question is do all DVD recorders have this same quality since the movies are compressed, or did the DVD player video card suck which is the result of this quality, and perhaps trying another brand clear up this problem? If it werent for these two problems overall the quality is very good. These distortions only last for a second so it isnt like the whole movie as a quality like this, but I want the quality to be good throughout the whole movie.

[Marvingj]

Panasonic is well known for there marcoblocks & artifacts. You need to get a better DVD recorder that handle compression better like JVC, Pioneer, Lite-On. There are lot of post about the lousy job panny does after 2 hours of recording.

[kinyo]

Great thanks a lot, that answers my question. So a better brand will produce better compression/quality. Actually everything I buy is Sony, however the only Sony DVD recorder at the store was $450 dollars and compared to all of the other $200 dollar ones I wanted to try the panny first. I already took it back to the store and got my money back.

[guns1inger]

The short answer is no. I have seen some very nice output from Pioneer recorders. Generally through, this has been for 2 hours or less. I would never put more than 2 hours on a single-layer (DVD5) disk without expecting some sort of quality compromise. The biggest issue I have is that lack of graduations in the recording times for mode recorders. 1, 2, 4, 8 - doesn't leave you much room to play. Even the Pioneer we have at work can only get down to 5 minute increments when recording back from the HDD.

Your shots look like they were recorded in 4 hour mode, so I'm not too surprised at what you have.

[thecoalman]

No that is not normal, at least it shouldn't be. A DVD recorder can produce excellent results, have you looked you model up to the left to see if there's any comments from others with the same model?

What your seeing, particularly in the second screen shot is called macroblocking. It occurs when there is not enough bitrate to compensate for the movement but it shouldn't be prevalent throughout the video. Here's an example, notice the lights produce macroblocking, the people do not. That's because this was encoded at a much too small a bitrate, the lights highlight the problem because they are flashing.

Edit: the lower modes on the recoder use a lower bitrate, the two or even a 3 hour mode should not produce affects like that.

[kinyo]

I promise you that it was recorded in SP mode, and thanks thecoalman yeah that shot is exactly what I am talking about. However what recorder allows a 3 hour record time, that is what I am looking for. Is it just me or do you feel that VCRs may actually have an advantage when it comes to recording still. When I first heard of a DVD recorder I was expecting high quality playback just like retail DVD movies that you rent and buy.

[lordsmurf]

The Panasonic DVD recorder are infamous for their crappy quality beyond two hours.

A good recorder, generally JVC and Pioneer only, though I suggest JVC the most, will yield excellent results in 2-4 hour modes.

While some may say 4-hour can "never" look as good as 2-hour, they are mistaken. It's all about science at this point. The 4-hour mode use EXACT HALF values for the 2-hour mode, both in resolution and bitrate allocation. But the Half D1 values are still near or greater than most home source, you should, given a GOOD encoder, never seen the difference between Full D1 and Half D1, because the source quality.

The problem is not all encoders are good. Panasonic's encoder, quite frankly, sucks horribly.

Some more on understanding source res:
http://www.digitalfaq.com/dvdguides/capture/understandsource.htm

At any rate, return than Panasonic, and go buy yourself a JVC. If unable to find or unwilling to spend $250-300 on a good JVC, the Pioneer is a nice runner-up at about $200 and easier to find. JVC's are not sold at most consumer stores, you'll have to look at specialty electronics shops like Ultimate Electronics or mail-order places like B&H Photo and Video (bhphotovideo.com).

Your will very likely be super-pleased by the JVC's quality at 4-hour or less, thanks to the LSI chips it uses, as well as some JVC anti-block tech.

[kinyo]

Great thanks, money isnt really an issue, is there an exact JVC model number to look for, or would any JVC DVD recorder do the job?

[lordsmurf]

No that is not normal, at least it shouldn't be.

I hate to break it to you, but on a Panasonic unit, that is very common. Especially when using VHS as the source. The 2-hour can have stray artifacts as shown in screenshot1 and the blocks are normal in 4-hour for screenshot2.

I agree, it shouldn't be.

But Panasonic insists on their shitty encoder chips. They need to suck it up and get LSI chips like their sister JVC.

[guns1inger]

The best quality to be had still comes from a digital tuner in the PC, where the subsequent encoding and authoring can be configured on a case by case basis to get the best quality for each encode. DVD Recorders, by necessity, take a one size fits all approach based around arbitrary time increments.

That said, a good recorder leaves a VHS for dead for 1 - 2 hour recording.

[thecoalman]

I have little experience with recorders but considering somw of the Guru's around here use them I'd have to say it's an issue with the brand your using.

Quality depends on few factors, first and most important is your source. Garbage in = Garbage out, second would be the encoder which is probabvly what your issue is crappy encoder = crappy video. Third is the bitrate, lower bitrates = more video on a disc but at a lower quality. On a standard 4.7GB DVD for example I never go below 6000 VBR which give you about 1 1/2 hours.

[lordsmurf]

Great thanks, money isnt really an issue, is there an exact JVC model number to look for, or would any JVC DVD recorder do the job?

JVC DR-M10S

They only have a few models, and they are all pretty much the same. Some have hard drives, some do not. Since I edit on the PC, I don't have a hard drive in mine.

The JVC DR-M100S is the new one, but nothing has really changed.
Seems B&H has one for $230:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=374578&is=REG

You can often find the DR-M10S refurbs for about $180 or so at amazon and ecost.

Don't get combo units. They used a bad JVC VCR in it, it's not that good at all. And it's known to break. No combo units. Get the separate DVD recorder.

[kinyo]

hehe I like the little "garbage in garbage out" statement :P Will this DVD recorder do the trick for me?

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=6387527&type=product&id=1077625431066

That is sold out but I will contact my local store to see if they have any in stock.

[kinyo]

haha you posted at the same time as me with the answer to my question So it records on DVD-R dics right?

[lordsmurf]

The best quality to be had still comes from a digital tuner in the PC, where the subsequent encoding and authoring can be configured on a case by case basis to get the best quality for each encode. DVD Recorders, by necessity, take a one size fits all approach based around arbitrary time increments.

That said, a good recorder leaves a VHS for dead for 1 - 2 hour recording.

Because of advancements in certain chips, like that of LSI which have the ability to remove chroma noise, I have to disagree.

It's not a one-size-fits-all either. Many units have FR modes (JVC does, Pioneer does) that let's you choose by time. It's a psuedo way to set bitrate/resolution.

For example, JVC's FR180 mode is excellent. The 3-hour mode. It gives a 352x480 res with a bitrate that averages in the high 3000's and spikes in the upper 4000's. For that res, that's a really high bitrate, and therefore ensures a lower artifact count. And the encoder is good, so that seals the deal.

So while it's not uber-precise like a cap card can get, it'll suffice for most situations, as the better units have a wide array of bitrate/res choices, in the FR style of doing things.

This set, of course, you know I still have an arsenal of capture cards, using them when needed. But the DVD recorders are more than adequate most of the time.

[thecoalman]

hehe I like the little "garbage in garbage out" statement :P

....and when you have lemons you have to make lemonade. :P

Wish I could but I can't take credit for it, I believe it's an old line attributed to computer in general when adding in the human factor.

[lordsmurf]

haha you posted at the same time as me with the answer to my question So it records on DVD-R dics right?

You can use DVD-RAM, DVD-RW or DVD-R.
I suggest you avoid DVD-RAM, and avoid VR mode on DVD-RW.

Use DVD-R, or DVD-RW in DVD-Video mode.

And don't skimp on cheap discs either:
http://www.digitalfaq.com/media/dvdmedia.htm

Nothing good on sale this week, just FYI.
You just missed the MXL, MCC, TDK, PRODISC and TY sales.
Probably some more next week.
Or buy online.

[kinyo]

Ah I see, Im the new guy when it comes to all of this as you can tell I never made DVD recording education a full time mission :P

[kinyo]

Actually Circuit City has 25 TDK DVD-Rs for only $9 dollars, I bought 50 of them.

[lordsmurf]

Actually Circuit City has 25 TDK DVD-Rs for only $9 dollars, I bought 50 of them.

Well there you go. Get the recorder and you should be all set.

[kinyo]

Last question, you say not to get the combos because of the bad VCR, but is the DVD recording still good? I wont use the built in VCR since I only record off of my digital cable box straight to DVD.

[wulf109]

No DVD recorder can improve a poor input signal. Satillite may yield good quality but never equal to a DVD disk. Signal quality varies greatly from channel to channel and how your system is wired will effect quality. I'm using a Pioneer DVD recorder and have come to the conclusion that recording off satillite will never equal a retail disk. You may be expecting more than the technology can deliver.

[kinyo]

Oh no I completely understand that, I dont expect it to improve the quality of the original broadcast, I just dont want it to be degraded. Of course digital cable is no where close to DVD quality, however it looks very good where I live. I have all monster cables too 8)

[kinyo]

Last question, you say not to get the combos because of the bad VCR, but is the DVD recording still good? I wont use the built in VCR since I only record off of my digital cable box straight to DVD.

^^^ Anyone have an answer to that? Want to make sure you guys een that post before I head out the door.

[wulf109]

I would go with a Pioneer. If possible use SP 1 hour mode. It will yield the highest bitrate recording with PCM sound. I just recorded Deadwood season 2 off HBO and the finished disks are excellent. Like Lordsmurf I do my editing on my computer,Ifind it much easier than trying to use the DVD recorder for editing.

[kinyo]

Question, you guys say you edit on your PC, which software do you use?

[lordsmurf]

No DVD recorder can improve a poor input signal. .... I'm using a Pioneer DVD recorder and have come to the conclusion that recording off satillite will never equal a retail disk. You may be expecting more than the technology can deliver.

That first statement is not true. LSI chips can and do improve imperfect signals. They remove chroma problem and some degree of noise.

The second point is correct. You do not have studio source. It's that simple. But you CAN make a really nice product that comes VERY CLOSE to a retail DVD.

[lordsmurf]

Last question, you say not to get the combos because of the bad VCR, but is the DVD recording still good? I wont use the built in VCR since I only record off of my digital cable box straight to DVD.

^^^ Anyone have an answer to that? Want to make sure you guys een that post before I head out the door.

No, these machines break. Don't buy a combo. never buy a combo unit of anything. Not a tv/vcr, tv/dvd, dvd/vcr, none of them. They always break in a short amount of time.

Get one if you want, even if it's just to test out the DVD recorder quality, or as a temporary until your non-combo arrives from mail order, but I suggest taking it back before 30 days are up.

That's my advice on combo units. From anybody. For anything.

[kinyo]

Hey Lord I ordered that DVD Recorder that you recommended so I am looking forward to recording again once it arrives

[lordsmurf]

Question, you guys say you edit on your PC, which software do you use?

http://www.digitalfaq.com/dvdguides/edit/dvdrecorder/recorderedit.htm