iDVD5 and +DL

[willrob]

According to this Apple page

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=301556

if you hve a dual layer burner (Pioneer 108 or 1090, for example), iDVD5 should already be able to burn +DL disks—of 7G+ projects.

Can anybody with the the appropriate media confirm this? I have the drive, but without a disk to check with it's Apple myth. At first Apple was saying this wouldbe possible with Tiger 10.4.1, but this page seems to imply only 10.4 is required.

[willrob]

Tis Apple page has more info:

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=301557

[willrob]

Once again, still talking to myself...

if I try to set up a larger project in iDVD 5 and look at the status window (as seen on the second web site above) it only shows a 4G capacity (no disk in drive). On that page 8G is shown as the possible capacity. So appaently no matter that I have a DL writer, if I don't have the supported machines listed (mostly newer G5 units) I can't use iDVD for DL. Not even to create a disk image for Toast to burn.

[Frobozz]

Interesting. This does create an incentive to order a new Mac with the Superdrive rather than using an external DL drive. Maybe someone will create a hack that accesses the DL disc image option (although Apple warns against burning a DL DVD from one of those image files).

On a related note, I recently ordered the LaCie D2 drive that is bundled with a Lite version of CaptyDVD 2. This application burns to DL media and accepts MPEG 2 (or 1) files as well as DV video. It also accepts AC-3 encoded audio so it is a good application to use for making nice motion menus and chapter menus from videos recorded by standalone DVD recorders.

One thing that wasn't clear when I purchased this. The lite version has only five of the motion menu templates while the full version bundled with FastCoder has at least 10 templates. The lite version also cannot encode AC-3 audio (unlike the full version).

LaCie says they sell the lite version separately for $75 but the full version is only available with the FastCoder.

[DanSlagle]

Wait till June/July new hardware new drives lower prices

[willrob]

I'm guess it's the Apple firmware that enabes the 109 to DL from IDVD. Burn Support is listed as Yes (Apple Shipped/Supported) with Firmware Revision A912.

No telling when a Mac compatable flasher for the 109 will arrive, but getting this firmware out of the Apple drive (reverse engineering) would be required, since the posted pioneer firmwares obvioulsy don't include it. At least mine doesn't (v 1.17). Perhaps the new 1.5 or the earlier 1.4 would enable it.... but I suspect it's an Apple propiratory firmware.

[willrob]

I spoke with an Apple rep at a CompUSA store (we don't have an Apple Store where I live), and he verified that it's likely the Apple firmware that iDVD 5.01 is looking for. Possibly Apple could enable iDVD's next update to create 8G disks for those of us with DL writers, but right now its a "feature" of the new G5 line and part of the promotion of that line.

[willrob]

Checking the Apple discussion forums I discovered that MCE sells a G4 iBook "Superdrive" [Pioneer K04] that supports the DL 8G projects size in iDVD.

http://www.mcetech.com/ibg4dvdr8dl.html

It's interesting that Apple only promotes this functionality as a new dual G5 feature. So if MCE can flash their drives to work, perhaps we can also.

[chikanakan]

It will only work with Apples firmware. Without it, the DL support will not show up. My guess is it's the firmware Kernel that Apple is checking. If the OEM Sig is set to Apple, it will work. I don't think the actual Firmware version matters as long as the OEM is set.

One could try by change the OEM Sig of the drive. You would need a PC to do it though.

[willrob]

MCE is now also selling a full size 109 (with the Apple firmware, I guess) for $99.

There is a Mac Flasher for the 109 (produced by Logitec for their external OEM drives). It is possible to change the internal name in the app, and substitute other firmware. See

http://forum.rpc1.org/viewtopic.php?t=34446&sid=abcd685fcc21c506be6a8a92e8226d32

If all it takes is changing the internal name of the firmware to match Apple's firmware name, then I'm sure someone (possibly me) will try it. Cross flashing to the A09 firmware is also an option. But doing that in a PC is the only way to turn on the Quiet Drive feature. If, after that, one could use the A09 firmware renamed to match the Apple (A912) firmware, and possibly get the best of both worlds.

It's clear that iDVD is lookng for that firmware, so it might also be able to alter iDVD to look for a particular DL burner's firmware. Not sure how to do that. I poked around in the package contents and couldn't see anywhere to do that. But I haven't looked at other iDVD resrouces in the Libraries.

But I don't think there is anything special about the firmware itself, other than it's name. Since the drive alrady supports DL burning. On the Apple Discussion forms, one user reported that he swaped out his MacMini's superdrive for a K09 (not sure whee he got it). When he installed Tiger he discovered that he had the 8G option in iDVD 5. The K09 is the same harware, but is the Apple OEM version. He gets Apple Installed (Supported) in System Profiler, rather than Vendor supported.

I think Apple is irritating its user base by creating a "feature" that you can only get by putting down $3000 for a new G5.

[chikanakan]

I've tried to text edit the binaries like that before, but I never get it to work. If you do get it to work, try change the Kernel to Apple and flashing the drive. It would be interesting in seeing what happens. I just stuck the drive in my PC and used DVRFlash. Worked great. Sucks I had to use the PC though.

[willrob]

While I know the Apple Firmware Revision number, I'm not sure what the internal name is. For example, the Pionner DVR-109 is currently at firmware 1.40. The firmware's header looks like this:

This is microcode file.
ID : PIONEER DVD-RW DVR-109
Revision Level : 1.40

[NightWing]

Guess I need to break down and buy a DL disk. have a Pioneer inside of my mini.

From the "About this mac". I get this off my mini:

PIONEER DVD-RW DVR-K04L:

Firmware Revision: 1.00
Interconnect: ATAPI
Burn Support: Yes (Apple Shipped/Supported)
Cache: 2000 KB
Reads DVD: Yes
CD-Write: -R, -RW
DVD-Write: -R, -RW, +R, +RW, +R DL
Burn Underrun Protection CD: Yes
Burn Underrun Protection DVD: Yes
Write Strategies: CD-TAO, CD-SAO, CD-Raw, DVD-DAO
Media: No

It does list DL under write above. Had to go under Project/Project Info in iDVD. And change disk size from 4 to 8.

But dont have any DL disk in stock.

[willrob]

Night Wing

If I go to Project/Project Info I don't seem to have the ability to change the disk size (I have a DL Pioneer 109). How are you changing the size?

[willrob]

>>I've tried to text edit the binaries like that before, but I never get it to work. If you do get it to work, try change the Kernel to Apple and flashing the drive. It would be interesting in seeing what happens.<<

While I know the Apple Firmware Revision number (from their Knowledge Base article), I'm not sure what the Kernel Version and Destination names are.

I looked at the recent Apple firmware updater for the G5's, hoping a kernel file would be present, but they use a totally different type of installer than Pioneer.

[chikanakan]

Destination Version : APPLE
Kernel Version : APPLE

[NightWing]

Night Wing

If I go to Project/Project Info I don't seem to have the ability to change the disk size (I have a DL Pioneer 109). How are you changing the size?

Its below the entry selection of Video Standard.

Question: Did you need to do anything for the system to reconize the 109? And its it internal or external.

When I installed the Pioneer inside of the mini. The OS reconized it with out any settings adjustments.

Forgot. Running Tiger 10.4.1

PS: How do you take a snap shot of the screen? If some one can tell me can grab a shot of the preference screen.

[willrob]

For screenshot:

Command-Shift-3 for the whole monitor screen

Command-Shift- 4 to make a selection first

[willrob]

>>Its below the entry selection of Video Standard.<<

I only have a choice of NTSC or PAL under Video Standard.

>>Question: Did you need to do anything for the system to reconize the 109? And its it internal or external.<<

I installed it while still running Panther (now on Tiger 10.4.1), so I used Patchburn to get the iApps to work. Under Tiger, the iApps worked without Patchburn; although I installed the Tiger version of it just to see if it would make iDVD give me 8G. It didn't.

In System profile I get
Burn Support: Yes (Vendor Supported)

I'm guessing yours will likely say Apple Installed (Supported) or something like that.

[NightWing]

Patchburn could be it. I also installed the K04L drive while under Panther. I orginally had the Combo drive then picked up the internal Pioneer a bit later.

Yep. Mine says:
Burn Support: Yes (Apple Shipped/Supported)

Wonder if Tiger understands that drive now without patchburn? Just a thought.

PS: Tnsk for the screen capture tip!

Here is the selector....

Set to std 4.7GB


Settings 4.7 & 8GB



PSS: Wow what a screen capture tool!

[willrob]

I'd post a screen shot of my Project Info, except I get the forum to display it.

All it would show really us the total lack of the second pop-up menu you have under the media standard button..

[willrob]

Night Wing

On the Apple iDVD support forum, someone who also ordered the drie you have—but has not received it yet—was told my MCE support that there was a CD included with "drivers" for the writer. Was this the case with your set up?

[chikanakan]

The 109 with Apples firmware only supports 4x DVD+R DL, and it has DVD-R DL support turned off. Don't know what else is different yet.

[NightWing]

Order mine from I think MWave. After tax and shipping was around 139 I think. They listed as a bare drive. But it came with Nero Lite for PC.

All I had to do was pry open the case. Remove the six screws. Slide out OEM Apple and reverse the process for the Pioneer.

It could be they are only supporting the DL+ for now.

I thought the Apple Super drives we not from Pioneer? But Matshita. The only problem with the OEM Matshita drive is an internal jumper/softjumper must be set to I think to Slave.

[londor]

NightWing,

After doing Command-Shift- 4 if you press the space bar (the pointer changes to a camera) you can capture windows.

[NightWing]

Cool! Tnks!

Any luck yet?

[willrob]

So here's why I care about this (not being able to burn 8G from iDVD), but maybe my thinking is incorrect.

I like the ability to create motion menues that iDVD affords, rather than just using Toast. DVDSP would be great but costs too much.

I don't anticipate needing to create four hour movies, but I'm thinking (perhaps incorectly) that a two hour movie spread out over a 8G disk will require less compression, thus multiplexing faster. And with less compression, it might look better.

But perhaps MPEG is still MPEG and the visual quality might be no different; and iDVD—or any app for that matter—may only use two hours worth of the disk, leaving half empty, with no visible improvement of any kind, and no savings in multiplexing time.

And then there's the Steve Jobs is pissing me off factor.

[NightWing]

Would be nice to create your own motion menues. Be a nice cottage industry!

Dont know. You did the Patchburn removal and dont know.... What Version of iDVD are you running... 5.0.1 626 is the version I got. There was some updates a few weeks back... Just wondering.

[Frobozz]

I like the ability to create motion menues that iDVD affords, rather than just using Toast. DVDSP would be great but costs too much.

I don't anticipate needing to create four hour movies, but I'm thinking (perhaps incorectly) that a two hour movie spread out over a 8G disk will require less compression, thus multiplexing faster. And with less compression, it might look better.

You are correct that a 2-hour video will look much better encoded for a DL DVD than for a single-layer disc because it will be encoded at a higher bit rate. But if you split the movie and record to two single-layer discs (costing 30 cents each) you'll get the same quality as recording to one DL disc (costing $10). I'm not sure the encoding time would be much faster with DL but have no way to test this. It's a shame that iDVD doesn't support AC-3 audio encoding because that would greatly improve the quality of a 2-hour video recorded to a single-layer DVD. This would be a much more useful addition than burning to DL media, in my opinion.

As for motion menus, I mentioned in my earlier post that CaptyDVD 2 has those as well as support for burning to DL media, plus it authors DVDs from existing MPEGs which iDVD cannot do. I only mention this because the choice isn't only between Toast, iDVD and DVD SP.