DVD-R DL anyone?

[thor300]

The last few days i been checking the Media section frequently, and still no one has tested the Verbatim DVD-R DL? I thought they would be out by now in north america, but obviously not... One webshop in Norway already got them in the pricelist and estimates to have them on stock on May 2nd. I been waiting for these for a long time and cant wait to read a review before i order a pack. If someone got a disk or 2, please post results ASAP.
For those who dont know already, they are 4x and not so much higher price than +R DL, 19-20% more where i saw them listed, thats cheap considered the 67% higher speed.

[Edmund Blackadder]

For those who dont know already, they are 4x and not so much higher price than +R DL, 19-20% more where i saw them listed, thats cheap considered the 67% higher speed.

I can burn Verbatim DVD+R DL on Pioneer A09XL at 6x. All the burns were successful, play back everywhere I tried and have better KProbe scans than Taiyo Yuden single layer DVD-R's! Burned with RecordNow 7.3.

Buy.com has Verbatim DVD+R DL's for about $16 for 3-pack plus free shipping, so no need for me to rush to DVD-R DL, since they probably will not be any more compatible than DVD+R DL with booktype set to DVD-ROM. As been reported already, DVD-R DL will have DVD-R booktype written, which I'm not too excited about. This might confuse some players that could expect that DVD-R can only be single layer (as opposed to DVD-ROM booktype which can be dual layer according to DVD Forum specifications, Pioneer A09XL writes DVD-ROM automatically to DVD+R DL).

[thor300]

Thats what we dont know yet edmund; will the -R DL be better or worse?? I hope better, and the best way to find out is to wait for the reviews
By the way, what FW for the A09 are you using to burn at 6x and is it possible also with a regular 109 drive and for example DVDDecrypter?
Edited: Typo

[Edmund Blackadder]

Thats what we dont know yet edmund; will the -R DL be better or worse?? I hope better, and the best way to find out is to wait for the reviews

Indeed. Or try it ourselves. The breaking point for me to use or not to use DVD-R DL media will be when I get hold of it and try to play it back on my Toshiba D-R1SG DVD Recorder (only 1.5 years old model). It doesn't play DVD+R. But if you record DVD+R or DVD+R DL with DVD-ROM booktype, it plays them flawlessly and recognizes them much faster than DVD-R or DVD-RW. So I'll see how it will handle DVD-R DL. If it gets confused by DVD-R DL then I'll continue using DVD+R DL with DVD-ROM booktype. That is because if D-R1SG doesn't play DVD-R DL means that many other booktype-picky players won't either . When DL media gets more affordable, I will need the most compatible DL format for distributing my productions to various customers. So we'll wait and see.

By the way, what FW for the A09 are you using to burn at 6x and is it possible also with a regular 109 drive and for example DVDDecrypter?

Right now I'm using firmware 1.40. However A09XL was able to write to Verbatim DVD+R DL at 6x right out of the box (I think firmware 1.03 it was). It doesn't like Ritek DL's though. Don't know if it got improved with 1.40, as I'm buying only Verbatims now. The funny part is they're actually much cheaper in local stores than Riteks (Memorex). $19.99 for a 3-pack Verbatim and $34.99 for a 3-pack Memorex! That's a no-brainer!

Regular 109 I think is the same concerning 6x burning on Verbatim DL, so if you get it you'll be fine. I never used DVDDecrypter for DL burning with Pioneer, so I cannot comment on that. RecordNow works best for me and is very compatible with various DVD players.

[-jsl-]

For those who dont know already, they are 4x and not so much higher price than +R DL, 19-20% more where i saw them listed, thats cheap considered the 67% higher speed.

More important than the speed rating written on package of the disc is at what speed the manufacturer of your burner thinks the discs are good for:

All 4x DVD+R DL burners support MKM 2.4x DVD+R DL media at 4x speed, Toshiba SD-R5372 supports it at 5x speed, Samsung TS-H552U, Pioneer DVR-109 and Plextor PX-716A support it at 6x speed. NEC's ND-3540A 1.01 firmware even seems to have the MKM 2.4x DVD+R DL supported at 8x(!) speed, while the 4x MKM DVD-R DL is "only" supported at 6x speed.

[thor300]

Ok, thanx guys. Good to know that speed might not be a problem then. I thought those writing speeds had to be in the pre-recorded media info. Still long time till may 2nd and Verbatim -R DL, so i might try a pack of those +R DL @ 6x. I thought i had to suffer through endless 2.4x burns like in the "old" days.

[leebo]

But if you record DVD+R or DVD+R DL with DVD-ROM booktype, it plays them flawlessly and recognizes them much faster than DVD-R or DVD-RW.

Edmund, how are you recording DVD+R with DVD-ROM booktype on the Pioneer? I have the 108 and wasn't aware of any software available that would allow this.

[Edmund Blackadder]

Edmund, how are you recording DVD+R with DVD-ROM booktype on the Pioneer? I have the 108 and wasn't aware of any software available that would allow this.

Leebo, I record DVD+R with DVD-ROM booktype on Sony DRU-700A (rebranded LiteOn 832). It's an excellent burner for single layer DVD+R (plus it's able to bitset), and now I use it almost exclusively for DVD+R SL. Pioneer is a little better for DVD+R DL and of course is much faster for Verbatim DL's.

And then for DVD-R SL I mostly use Sony DRX-500ULX and it's probably the most stable burner for CD's and DVD's I've ever had. I think it's the only Sony model that was designed and manufactured by Sony. It burns everything with great results, while Pioneer and newer Sony (LiteON) has had some low points in their buning career

But put all the speed race aside, I pretty much always burn DVD's at no faster than 4x and CD's at no faster than 16x. I just don't really trust higher speeds, even if it seems to burn and play fine. Plus, I hate those Z-CLV rings ! I like to see a nice uniform dye on my burns. By the way Pioneer 09 makes rings even at 4x speed on most DVD-R's because of recalibration procedures during burning. They play great and scan great, but I just don't like the look of it - those rings somehow look cheap to me . However, no such rings on DVD+R or DVD+R DL when burned with Pioneer 09.

[leebo]

Thanks, Edmund.
I have a Lite-on 832 myself. I seem to remember there is a Lite-on utility available that allows you to change the book type. Guess I should look into it as most of my DVD players wont play DVD+R either.

that brings another question: is the book type set during burning or during finalization? I ask because I have an ILO set top that records only DVD+R/RW, so when I record on that the +R discs cant be played on my other players. I wonder if I can finalize on my 832?

[Edmund Blackadder]

Thanks, Edmund.
I have a Lite-on 832 myself. I seem to remember there is a Lite-on utility available that allows you to change the book type. Guess I should look into it as most of my DVD players wont play DVD+R either.

You can get the booktype utility here:
http://www.liteonit.com/ODD/English/e_downloads/e_utility.asp

However, Codeguys have the utility called Omnipatcher and you can do all kinds of cool things to your LiteOn firmware, including auto-bitsetting, so you don't have to do it each time you restart your computer. Get it here:
http://codeguys.rpc1.org/patchers.html

I set my DRU-700A firmware to do auto-bitsetting with Omnipatcher.

that brings another question: is the book type set during burning or during finalization? I ask because I have an ILO set top that records only DVD+R/RW, so when I record on that the +R discs cant be played on my other players. I wonder if I can finalize on my 832?

This I don't know for sure. But my guess is that it won't work. At least with my Toshiba recorder and DVD-R/RW, they have to be finalized on Toshiba. You have to pretty much finalize on whatever you recorded on. But I think that the booktype is written during finalization, I might be wrong though.

Maybe you can simply record to DVD+RW on ILO and then transfer them to DVD+R using LiteOn 832 with DVD-ROM booktype. I usually record only to DVD-RW on Toshiba and then later copy them to -R/+R DVD's on computer and reuse DVD-RW on Toshiba. I know it requires more time, but at least this way there are less wasted blanks if something goes wrong during recording. And I can also delete the last recorded title without sacrificing the remaining space on DVD-RW (with DVD-R you loose that space permanently).

[kosekjm]

Leebo,

You can also flash the 108 to a piodata (another company Pioneer OEMS these drives to) firmware. With the piodata fw then +R disks will get set to dvd-rom during the burn.

I flashed my 108 to the piodata kernel and haven't had any problems with it. Nero, Shrink, and Decryptor all set the book type to DVD-ROM during the burn process. Where in the burn process, I'm not sure, but all of the SL +R media that I burn is now listed as DVD-ROM.

I think the FW that I used was here:

http://gradius.rpc1.org/

Although, it's been so long, that I'm not sure now. It should flash your 108 to the piodata kernel Version 1.10 and then the FW to piodata 1.18. Your drive will then be listed as a piodata 108DX. This will void any warranty you may have and you do run a considerable risk of fragging your drive, so caution is highly recommended. If this is indeed the same that I used (And it looks like it, I just can't swear to it), then I have not had any problems with it in nearly 5 months. Still recognizes all of the same media that I had before. The only negative (Short of toasting your drive), is you now have to wait for updated piodata firmware as (I believe) the pioneer fw will no longer work. I think pioneer is up to version 1.19 of their fw, but piodata is still only at 1.18. To me, this hasn't been a problem yet.

Again, use this (If you do decide to try it) with caution and at your own risk. It worked for me, but can easily fail for others.

[Whynot]

I Thought Kprobe could only be used for Lite-On
Drives

[leebo]

Thanks, kosekjm.

I'll make a note of that info. But since I have the Lite-on in another computer, it's probably safer to just burn my +R's in that one. If it becomes a big hastle though...

Another note: the ILO set top is made by Lite-on. When I got it, several people on this board (who also had one) said you could only copy dvd'S to it's HDD if the DVD was burned on the drive in the first place. I discovered that wasn't exactly true when I bought a sony VRD-VC10 field DVD recorder. The drive in that unit is also a Lite-on. Disc's recorded in it can be copied to the hard drive of the ILO, edited, and re-burned.

So that is why I wonder if it might be possible to record a TV show to the ILO and finalize with the 832.

[leebo]

Question about the Piodata FW. Does it remove the riplock? I'm using a hacked FW on the 108 now that I don't want to change because I can rip at upwards of 10X.

[kosekjm]

I'm pretty sure that it does, but it's been so long since I've ripped with the burner that I can't remember. I'll try something tonight and let you know.

[kosekjm]

Here you go leebo:

Single Layer 4.28GB Pressed Disk Ripped to ISO:

22:53:07 DVD Decrypter Version 3.5.4.0 started!
22:53:07 Microsoft Windows XP Home Edition (5.1, Build 2600 : Service Pack 2)
22:53:32 Source Device: [1:0:0] PIODATA DVD-RW DVR-108DX 1.18 (ATA)
22:58:28 Operation Successfully Completed! - Duration: 00:04:55
22:58:28 Average Read Rate: 15,220 KB/s (11.0x) - Maximum Read Rate: 21,749 KB/s (15.7x)

Dual Layer 7.87 GB Pressed Disk Ripped to ISO:

23:05:54 DVD Decrypter Version 3.5.4.0 started!
23:05:54 Microsoft Windows XP Home Edition (5.1, Build 2600 : Service Pack 2)
23:06:09 Source Device: [1:0:0] PIODATA DVD-RW DVR-108DX 1.18 (ATA)
23:17:36 Operation Successfully Completed! - Duration: 00:11:27
23:17:36 Average Read Rate: 12,027 KB/s (8.7x) - Maximum Read Rate: 17,361 KB/s (12.5x)

I'd say that yeah the firmware fixes the rip lock. Actually kind of embarrased to say, these are a darn site faster than my dvd-rom speeds(Oops who knew)

[leebo]

Muy bien! Thanks.

And to Edmond, I flashed my 832 using the firmware you recommended, and my three DVD players that have never been able to play a +R disc can now play my newly burned ones!

[deejay.2001]

actually everybody is talking of everything but i think that author asked about where to buy those????

so....anybody knows.....?

[lordsmurf]

They are not out yet in the USA. Japan, maybe.

[thor300]

Just checked that webshop for -R DL again, now the expected arrival date is may 5th, looks like its a SQL or ASP script that set it to 2 weeks from current date. In other words, they have no idea when its on stock.

[compuser]

They are not out yet in the USA. Japan, maybe.

https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=258498&start=30

[-jsl-]

http://club.cdfreaks.com/showthread.php?t=134920

Compatibility is not so good at the moment. Only 4 out of 13 drives I tested were able to read the disc.

[Edmund Blackadder]

Compatibility is not so good at the moment. Only 4 out of 13 drives I tested were able to read the disc.

That's only about 31% compatibility! Even DVD+R DL with booktype set to DVD+R DL was reported to be at something like 45%, and af course with DVD-ROM booktype DVD+R DL is nearly universally compatible (when recorded with the right software/firmware combination).

So it looks like it was a bad move on Forum's part not making DVD-ROM a default booktype setting. Unless of course that disc was recorded with Nero or with some defective firmware

[lordsmurf]

I don't trust posters at cdfreaks. I still say we all need to wait and test for ourselves.

[Edmund Blackadder]

I don't trust posters at cdfreaks. I still say we all need to wait and test for ourselves.

Oh trust me, the moment I see DVD-R DL at Staples or BestBuy, even if the price is outrageous, I will buy a few pieces to do some tests. That would be the easiest way to come to a verdict in DVD+R DL vs DVD-R DL case. Pioneer 09 firmware 1.40 now finally supports DVD-R DL, so just wait for the media and see what happens.

As of now I'm perfectly happy with the results I'm getting with Verbatim DVD+R DL's. So if DVD-R DL's compatibility is good, then great - we'll have two DL formats to choose from (perhaps driving the prices down somewhat). But if DVD-R DL's compatibility sucks it's not going to be the end of the world for me, I'll just continue using DVD+R DL with DVD-ROM booktype setting.

[thor300]

-jsl-, thanx for the bad news. I await more reviews for now, but maybe its best i give DVD+R DL a try anyway. I been determined all along to wait for the -R DLs, was hoping that would solve many problems with compatibility and more, but it doesnt look too promising for now. I hope smurfie is right that this shouldnt be trusted too much when coming from cdfreaks. Hard to believe it can be worse than +R DL, then i been waiting for.. what have i been waiting for?

[-jsl-]

I hope smurfie is right that this shouldnt be trusted too much when coming from cdfreaks.

He's not of course. The poster BTW happens to be the author of Nero Infotool and the excellent Nero CD/DVD speed.

Hard to believe it can be worse than +R DL

Not really even though you can conclude that from just this test. DVD+R DL is however working really well when burned in the right way and there have never been any good reason to assume DVD-R DL would work better, especially as it's one year later to the market.


BTW it looks like the new BenQ DW1640 burns 2.4x MKM DVD+R DL at 8x speed with great burn quality. How's that for burner manufacturer and a format which are both crap according to LS?

[lordsmurf]

I hope smurfie is right that this shouldnt be trusted too much when coming from cdfreaks.

He's not of course. The poster BTW happens to be the author of Nero Infotool and the excellent Nero CD/DVD speed.

That still doesn't mean anything. I find most software PROGRAMMERS to be a bit "off" when it comes to actually using the software in the full video environment. Building code is great, but I've seen those same people unable to figure out what the arrows on a remote control mean.

[thor300]

Sorry to say i agree with smurfie here. Im a programmer myself, and we never use those programs we make in the environment we made it for, after all we do not run shippinglines just because we make applications for running them. Thats one example, and another thing, we dont have much time to use them, just like the shippingline staff dont have time to make their own applications.

-jsl-, i still HOPE smurfie is right, but sure i realize he might not be right. You have a point that its a reason why -R DL comes this late, that could mean they had big problems, could also mean its not very important for the manufacturers with both +R and -R DL, its a young technology still.

[-jsl-]

The German magazine C'T has also made some DVD-R DL tests summarized here.