Downloading TV shows

[hecklernumber1]

I'm in another forum and a person is saying that it ISN'T illegal to download tv shows. I replied its just as illegal as sharing mp3s. His rebuttle is that with fair use laws its ok to do, and brought up the use of the VCR and how when broadcasters took the VCR thing to court, they lost. So whose right?

[Matt D]

You are. It's completely illegal to download movies, music, TV shows, or software. You are allowed to timeshift (record and watch later) but that's a totally different circumstance.

[gadgetguy]

It's completely illegal...

Unless the copyright holder has released it for download. (Although I'm not aware of any TV shows that have been legally released for download, there are alot of old movies and movie serials that have been released.)

[hecklernumber1]

What about if the pure intent would be to download, view it, then delete? It seems like fair use to me. For obvious reasons I know this wouldnt work for movies.

[gadgetguy]

If the copyright holder has not released it for download, then it is illegal to download it, regardless of the intent of the downloader.

[Mark Bruner]

I understand if the user intends to use it for educational purposes, it may very well be legal to download it.

[steve2713]

I understand if the user intends to use it for educational purposes, it may very well be legal to download it.

So what if we are using it to educate ourselves about just how bad most TV shows are now? :P

[Mark Bruner]

As long as you are using it in a academic setting, whose going to fight you on it?

[steve2713]

As long as you are using it in a academic setting, whose going to fight you on it?

What if I'm home schooling, and I'm my own teacher?

[Mark Bruner]

As long as your home is an accredited institution, and you're doing it for college credit, what's the harm?

[gadgetguy]

As long as you are using it in a academic setting, whose going to fight you on it?

The copyright holder (or their lawyers).

I'm not a lawyer and I don't play one on TV, but as I understand copyright laws, the rights belong to the copyright holder and if they have not released it for download then it is not legally available for download. Therefore, you cannot legally download it for any reason, fair use or not.

Edit: The laws have nothing to do with "harm".

[Mark Bruner]

What's he going to do? Hire a lawyer and pay him a ton of money just to have a judge say "Hey, don't download that movie anymore, next case!" Sounds uneconomical to me.

[edDV]

What's he going to do? Hire a lawyer and pay him a ton of money just to have a judge say "Hey, don't download that movie anymore, next case!" Sounds uneconomical to me.

Are you arguing prosecution probability, morality, or the law. Sheesh frame your argument.

Educational use requires specific release of copyright restrictions. Get this wrong and it will cost you major bucks. School systems are considered deep pockets by the slime lawyers. Instructors can be fired for less costly mistakes.

[Mark Bruner]

Sheesh, I should have gone PM.

[gadgetguy]

Sheesh, I should have gone PM.

Why? This has been a civil conversation and it's good to try to clear up some of the misinformation that is floating around.

[adam]

If we are talking about the US then no, there really is no way to construe it as being legal. Plenty of people have already been prosecuted for this very act actually. In other countries it could be different.

Time shifting is strictly applied to allowing you to watch YOUR broadcast at a later date. You have no right to another's copy of their broadcasted signal.

As far as the educational use aspect of Fair Use, there are VERY strict guidlines imposed whenever the content is transferred over a network. This is all covered under the TEACH Act and unless the network is under the control of an actual educational institution, and that institution has implemeted measures to prevent unauthorized copying/distribution, then the argument is not going to fly.

In the US you really don't have many rights when it comes to downloading, and your Fair Use and specific rights don't translate to the internet generally. For instance, Copyright law gives you the express permission to copy your audio cds, but caselaw says that you can't download that same cd that you already own.

And that is all viewed from the standpoint of the downloader. Consider the person doing the uploading...they truly have no argument at all and you are both contributing and inducing their actions, both of which are considered infringements in and of themselves.

[jimmalenko]

His rebuttle is that with fair use laws its ok to do, and brought up the use of the VCR and how when broadcasters took the VCR thing to court, they lost. So whose right?

My only familiarity with US law comes from time spent at this forum, but I noticed in the rules of this site, there's a definition that is quite relevant IMO:




Now, while far from being an expert on the matter, it would be my understanding that the fair use premise relates to material you own (DVD/VHS), or material you legitimately receive via cable or TV or whatever.

This argument has actually been done to death here before. See this post, as well as the thread it came from, for an exstensive and exhaustive discussion of this issue.

[Koleman]

If I pay for cable, shouldn't I be able to download the shows that are on, if i dont watch them, its I'm still paying for them.

[jimmalenko]

If I pay for cable, shouldn't I be able to download the shows that are on, if i dont watch them, its I'm still paying for them.

I think the problem with that is that you pay to view them, when the company sees fit to show them to you, NOT when you see fit to download them. Also, AFAIK the legality of the issue isn't so much with the downloading, it's the original uploading or "distribution of copyrighted material" that is the crime here.

[Nilfennasion]

I think the more relevant issue is that it is only the small grey area of the law (the right to back up) that keeps this site from being terminated by money-hungry copyright lawyers. The rules against the mention, solicitation, or advocacy of warez are there in order to protect this. Can you imagine how much harder it would be for noobs like I was a little over a year ago if sites like this went off into the cyberspace void? Get enough of the kind of people who don't understand that warning they get every time they post, and we just might find out.

[adam]

It has been made very clear that the Fair Use statements in the site's rules do not mirror that of any given country's laws. You can look up the Fair Use provisions of US copyright law. It does not grant ANY right at all. It is a test and it has been ruled upon countless times that it can never be used to allow full and complete copies. There is no Fair Use right to backup media that you own. This is made even more clear by the fact that the legislature has granted specific and express backup rights only to specific types of media. We have a law that says we can backup computer software and we have another that says we can back up musical recordings. There is also a specific one that lets libraries backup their media. If Fair Use allowed backups generally there would be no need for any of these express laws.

As for this site, it is perfectly legal to backup media in countries other than the US, and most of the guides, if not all, can also be used for actual Fair Use purposes, such as ripping a DVD and taking excerts for the purpose of parody for example.

As for why you can record your own broadcast but not download another's, that is because Fair Use still defers to the copyright holder, just like all of copyright law. The idea of Fair Use is that users have a right to do certain limited things even though they technically violate copyright, but the courts are extremely reluctant to expand these rights beyond those absolutely necessary to accomplish that narrow right. So to make the argument that you could download a broadcast, you would have to honestly be able to say that you had a right to receive that broadcast yourself. And if you can say this, then you could have recorded it yourself. And the courts say that is enough. Look up the Sony v. Universal city studios case to read how limited the right to time-shift is. You can record broadcasts on your own equipment and you can view it once...that's it.