Ricoh DVD+RW burner- SVCD on a DVD ?

[HolgerS]

Hello,

since some days i own the new Ricoh DVD+RW burner and it works fine with burning my own DVD´s and running on my standalone DVD-player.

Question: has someone tried to burn a SVCD on a DVD (using the long capacity of 4,7 GB). It should be possible then to store more than 4 hours of viedo in SVCD format on 1 disk .......

[Kdiddy]

No it is not possible to burn in DVD media in SVCD format, you will have to extract your mpg off the SVCD, and reauthor in DVD format. Especially if you stuck to true 480x480 SVCD format, then you will have to also resize the frame to correct DVD specs, either 352x480 or 720x480.

[JHebert]

Yeah I stay away from 480x480 for that very reason. I am doing my XSVCD and XVCD in 352x480 since its a standard DVD supported resolution and will be easier to upgrade to DVD-R or DVD+RW. Also the overall quality actually seems alot better to me since there are more bits per pixel at this resolution.

[AntnyMD]

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On 2001-12-11 10:58:51, JHebert wrote:
Yeah I stay away from 480x480 for that very reason. I am doing my XSVCD and XVCD in 352x480 since its a standard DVD supported resolution and will be easier to upgrade to DVD-R or DVD+RW. Also the overall quality actually seems alot better to me since there are more bits per pixel at this resolution.
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I thought DVD's MPEG-1 spec requires a frame size of 352x240/288 -- If you're making XVCD at 352x480 in hopes of transferring later to DVD, the authoring software may reject it.

[gNOMEintheRedHat]

HolgerS,

Does the Ricoh documentation say anything about UPDATING to support DVD+R?

gNOME WANTZ DVD burner BAD!!!!!!

I want to be sure +R is truly going to be supported by these first generation drives.

[KoalaBear]

352x480 is a valid MPEG-1 resolution for DVD, but the bitrate can't exceed 1.8Mb/S.

[therick]

ok I have been reading this thread and I am kinda confused...so DVD can hold MPEG-1 at 352x240(AntnyMD)...or can it hold MPEG-2 at 352x480(KDiddy and JHerbert)? Which is it? Going to look up exact DVD specs right now...but a clarification from the experts would be nice.

[Kdiddy]

"Going to look up exact DVD specs right now...but a clarification from the experts would be nice. "

heh, you wont find any of those around here. But I can tell you 100% certainty that DVD specs allows BOTH for mpeg-1 at 352x240/288 AND mpeg-2 352x480/720x480..

[therick]

I just found that and was gonna post it...KDiddy you are as much of an expert as there is on this forum....trust me, I have been reading it for about 6 months straight

[HolgerS]

gNome..@

within the documentatation of the drive there is no hint for a DVD+R. But i talked with the Ricoh support here in Germany and they told me that there will be beginning of next year DVD+r-disks available. For me thats not that important if they are available, because an RW is, at the very last end cheaper then a +R-disk. Only important for me is that disks are running on my standalone DVD.

Al other thanks for explanations ....... however, i´m now more confused as before .....

If i look on a normal CD, burned in SVCD-format (480x576), what is running on my standalone DVD then it seems as a normal CD (with special directories of course .....).

My thought was, to create a normal (UDF-format ?) DVD+RW-disk and then burning with Nero (or any other program) a SVCD on this disk, using the greater capacity of the DVD+RW.

Of course, if i´m using a DVD-authoring program like "My DVD" i can imagine that this is not working because this will burn in DVD-format and not in SVCD.

[JHebert]

HolgerS, my understanding of the problem is that even if you had DVD burning software that could create the SVCD file and directory structure on a DVD+R/RW I don't know if any DVD player would be able to recognize and play the combination of SVCD structure on a DVD disk. That's probably why you would have to extract the mpegs from SVCD and reauthor to DVD.
As Kdiddy said if the SVCD mpegs are 480x480 you would probably also have to resize (re-encode) them to a DVD specification size like 720x480 or 352x480.
I wasn't aware before that 352x480 is only in the DVD spec for mpeg-2 and that mpeg-1 is supposed to be only 352x240. I verified this in the DVDdemystified faq. I hope that my 352x480 XVCD will be able to convert later to DVD without re-encoding. Does anyone know any DVD authoring software that allows turning off compliance for the mpeg resolution? I guess this would create sort of an XDVD disk. Hopefully since my DVD player supports XVCD with mpeg-1 at 352x480 it will also support XDVD with these specs. Or, what if I de-muxed these XVCD 352x480 mpeg-1 files and re-muxed them as SVCD files? Do you think that would allow DVD authoring software to accept them, and would they playback correctly?

[Jason A]

Actually..it does work...I've done it and it works...

When a DVD player first loads, it looks at the directory structure of the disc...if it see's a VCD/SVCD file format, then most of them will switch over to that format...

but some get weirded out, trying to read DVD and play MPEG1 at the same time.

My player (Panasonic A-310) seems to do this just fine where as my neighbor's player doesn't.

I've squeezed 6 hours of VCD on a DVD-R disc but again, it's very limited.

I'm not doing that now, because if and when my player takes a dump, I'm going to have to find a new one that will play all of those discs that'd I've have burned...

In reality, no matter which format you encode, MPEG1, MPEG2, this res, that res, etc.... you will always have a compat problem with another player out there.

Best just to burn on a regular DVD-R disc.

Jason

[JHebert]

Jason, thanks that's some good news. What software did you use to author the VCD format on DVD-R? Have you done just VCD compliant or also XVCD or XSVCD? Have you also tried my idea of authoring in DVD format but with a DVD non-compliant mpeg like a 352x480 mpeg-1 file?

[KoalaBear]

I was wrong!

352x480 apparently isn't a valid MPEG-1 resolution for DVD.

Some sources say that it is and some sources say that it isn't so there is some uncertainty about the issue.

But I checked the documentation for several authoring packages and none of them accepts an MPEG-1 resolution greater than SIF (352x240), so I'm inclined to accept that as gospel.

We live and we learn, eh?

PS to JHebert: This doesn't necessarily leave you in the cold. There's no reason you can't transcode your material from MPEG-1 to MPEG-2. In fact, the higher bitrates afforded by DVD should involve little overall loss of quality as a result of the conversion.

Surely, bringing your materials up to DVD spec is better than trying to drag the DVD spec down to your materials, is it not?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: KoalaBear on 2001-12-12 12:38:04 ]</font>

[JHebert]

KoalaBear thanks for checking into those DVD authoring programs. Too bad about the MPEG-1 issue.
I was hoping to avoid having to transcode my files but fortunately I only have a few XVCD at 352x480. I have a lot more XSVCD with MPEG-2 at 352x480 and it sounds like those will be easy to convert over to DVD.
The reason I have been experimenting with MPEG-1 XVCD at 352x480 is for compatibility with family and friends DVD players. My player supports SVCD, but they have players that support VCD but not SVCD. I hoped this would give me SVCD quality but with VCD compatibility so we could share disks.
So here is a question: If I encode a MPEG-2 file as an XSVCD at 352x480, is it possible to author that MPEG-2 file in a VCD disk structure (not SVCD) in VCDImager or other program? Would a VCD compatible player recognize and play this 'hybrid' disk? My thinking is that even players that don't inherently support SVCD still have an MPEG-2 decoder for DVD, so possibly the lack of SVCD support is because their firmware isn't programmed to recognize SVCD directory structure. If a SVCD MPEG-2 is burned as a VCD, maybe the player would play it as a VCD. What do you think?

[Anonymous65]

If I were to capture video for DVD, I would use
352x240 mpeg-1 @ 1.8Mb/sec CBR (for VHS tapes)
352x480 mpeg-2 @ 2.4Mb/sec CBR (for SVHS and Hi8 tapes)
704x480 mpeg-2 @ 4 Mb/sec CBR (for DVD rips or digital video)

That covers all quality levels, and are all DVD compatible.

[KoalaBear]

[S]VCD is really past the end of its useful life, you know?

It was never designed for the things we want to do with it, and we can only stretch the standards so far before they break. About the best that can be said for the whole scene is that by the time we get our grubby little hands on DVD burners, we'll be so good at managing bitrates we'll be able to pack a frigging cineplex onto a single disc.

Anyway, it seems to me there are at least two reasonable approaches to the problem:

(1) Encode XVCD/DVD-compliant MPEG-1 (352x240, 1.8Mb/S) for everything. Pro: compatibility with the relatives. Con: Accepting the lowest common denominator for yourself.

(2) Encode XSVCD/DVD-compliant MPEG-2 (352x480, 2.6Mb/S or higher) for yourself and transcode the finished discs down to 352x480 MPEG-1 for the relatives. Pro: Quality and options for the future are preserved. Con: Extra time, extra hassle, extra discs.

All but the pickiest (read: Philips) [S]VCD authoring software will handle a wide latitude of input files. VCDImager and I-Author are popular especially for this reason.

Which reminds me of something...

If I'm not mistaken, there was a thread not long ago that talked about hacking an MPEG-2 file in such a way that you could put it in a VCD directory structure and thereby trick a non-SVCD compatible DVD player into reading it.

The hack exploited the fact that DVD players use a single MPEG-2 decoder to handle DVD, VCD and SVCD alike. Changing the stream ID (or something like that) would smuggle the file past the firmware and get it to the MPEG-2 chip, which generally doesn't care what you give it provided it's a valid MPEG program stream.

You'd have to search it out and see if it's applicable in your case, but if so, it would allow you to have your cake and eat it too.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: KoalaBear on 2001-12-12 22:29:13 ]</font>

[Jason A]

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On 2001-12-12 09:21:30, JHebert wrote:
Jason, thanks that's some good news. What software did you use to author the VCD format on DVD-R? Have you done just VCD compliant or also XVCD or XSVCD? Have you also tried my idea of authoring in DVD format but with a DVD non-compliant mpeg like a 352x480 mpeg-1 file?
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Yes...I have tried but the res and MPEG type are all dependant on your DVD player. Doesn't matter if I make a 352x480 mpeg1 or 2 on either CD or DVD.

My player just doesn't like 352x480, but it does like 480x480 and up to 3mb/sec.

Again, it's up to the player. I'm just worried that if and when my A-310 dies, if I made a ton of DVD-SVCD's, then I'd be stuck trying to find one that'll work.

I rather just burn in a rez/bitrate that I know is common across the board.

Jason

[JHebert]

KoalaBear - I tried searching for that "MPEG-2 in VCD" thread you mentioned, but haven't found it yet. Do you recall if it involved remuxing the MPEG-2 as a "VideoCD Non-standard" in TMPGEnc or something like that? Or is it as simple as just selecting an MPEG-2 and VCD in VCDImager?
Your pros/cons list pretty much sums up the dilemma. I guess I'll probably stick with option 1 for the shared stuff unless I can work out this trick.
Jason A - That's interesting about 352x480 not working in your player even as a MPEG-2 on DVD. Since 352x480 MPEG-2 is part of the "official" DVD Video spec does that mean your player is at least partially DVD non-compliant?
Anyway, thanks for the input guys. I'll keep hacking around with this and post if I come up with any news.

[KoalaBear]

I believe this was the thread.

Apparently it does rely on a multiplexer to change the stream identification, but if it works, it works, eh?

[JHebert]

Thanks for the link KoalaBear. It looks like that thread turned into a firestorm (no surprise) with a lot of opinions on the subject. Technical arguements and jargon aside, the bottom line for me is that if this method enables playback of SVCD streams in otherwise SVCD incapable players, then I will give it a shot. I wonder if the MPEG extracted from such a hybrid "SVCD/VCD" disk would actually be identified as an MPEG-2 or MPEG-1 by DVD authoring software? Thinking again toward the future.

[Jason A]

When it comes down to it guys....

It all depends on YOUR PLAYER.....

not some so-called standard.

Every player has their own standards, some are the same as others, some have esoteric resolutions that they can play..

What works for YOUR player is what you should use.

Jason