ATI MMC version to use with ATI AIW 128 Pro AGP 32meg card

[videopete]

I've been using MMC 7.7 for video capture of my home Hi8mm videos and just recently noticed that some of the video is jerky or stutters during & after the video capture...it seems to jerk the video slightly while the audio remains perfect - this is becoming annoying. At first I thought that the TMPGenc encoder was causing the jerkiness in the video but after careful review of my captured MPEG file - I noticed that it's in the initial captured files??
Some posts recommend using MMC 8.7 but for some reason, I cannot get any of these more recent MMC versions to install - the installer starts and then simply disappears and that's it. Has anyone experienced this? Can I continue to use MMC 7.7 and possibly correct the video stuttering problem??? - it occurs from time to time, no set interval, and it is slight but very annoying when played back on TV.
-OR-
should I attempt to upgrade the software to MMC 8.7 ???
I guess what I'm asking is - is this problem related to the MMC 7.7 software or my setup?

Thanks in advance for all your help!!

[Sulik]

It sounds like dropped frames - possibly due to improper a/v sync. I would check either cpu usage (make sure nothing else is running while capturing unless you have a HT/MP system), and make you you've got the latest audio drivers (windowsupdate).

Also, I believe 7.7 only allows capturing de-interlaced video (not as smooth during fast motion)

MMC 8.1 did bring a lot of performance improvements over 7.7, and allows full support for interlaced video encoding.

[LOWTECH]

Try using another make of capture card or direct firewire as it solved my ATI AIW card troubles..........

[lordsmurf]

ATI MMC 7.x and 8.x both did interlace.

[videopete]

I do not see any dropped frames. CPU is running btwn 40-60% usually - nowhere near 100%. ATI MMC doesn't even show 1 dropped frame (unless it's not reporting properly). Could it be related to the hard drive (possibly fragmented, causing stutters???) not sure?

[edsmith77]

videopete,
I had (still have) the exact same ATI video card. And I too could not use the later MMC versions past 7.8. The installer would just quit.
I did try a bunch of TomFoolery but all to no avail. In the end I just gave up and bit the bullet and bought an ATI 9600.
Still same good quality but this time I got the use of the newest MMC gadgets.
I did not experience your problems with my old ATI card, so I am sorry I cannot help you in that area. That is not to say I did not have any problems. In fact, I did. But these were related to the horsepower that my PC could deliver. It was a bit short in the AVI capture area at full D1. I would drop lot'sa frames enough that would cause the capture to be useless. However, at 1/2 D1, I seemed to be pretty good. Only a handful of dropped frames. Not a big problem with video and not enough to cause audio sync problems. My old system was only an 800Mhz machine. I have since upgraded to a 2.8 Ghz Intel based motherboard and CPU. Now AVI capturing is a problem of the past. In fact, I rarely capture in AVI now a days, I prefer the MPEG2 capabilities of MMC.

Ed

[pfh]

I had this problem but it was on a Win98 machine. Never did get it to work. Then after all my messing with it the card was bad anyways!!!

[lordsmurf]

There are ways to install ATI MMC 8.7 on these 128 PRO cards, but I do not discuss them here due to all that is involved.

[LOWTECH]

The more I read and here about ATI cards, about installing this and that and the trouble it causes...... one has to wonder why?

And a posting from Lordsmurf saying....There are ways to install ATI MMC 8.7 on these 128 PRO cards, but I do not discuss them here due to all that is involved.

That`s the trouble there appears to be far too much INVOLVED for far too many, to get their cards working correctly on many forums?

[lordsmurf]

All technology has some learning curve.

[Nelson37]

VideoPete - Lower resolution, bitrate, and/or eliminate audio. This will reduce HD filesize and test if throughput is the problem.

Lowtech - ATI specifically states that MMC 8.x is not meant for cards from several years ago. This is not a defect.

Lordsmurf - Either post the method to make it work, or stop telling people it will. I have seen these claims from you for a year or two now and have yet to see the promised instructions published in any form, anywhere.
Your claim that it is too involved for the members of THIS forum, many of whom can follow some extremely complex video conversion techniques, rings hollow. My experience with ATI leads me to believe that you MIGHT have gotten it to work once or twice but have been unable to reliably duplicate those results.

[LOWTECH]

Nelson 37 ... I agree with most of your posting and my experience with my ATI AIW 3 year old card was to scrap the capture side of the card for a firewire card as it refused to capture my old home movies without a Macrovision type flashing and distortion.

I now capture perfect DVD copies onto disc of my old home movies.

Lordsmurf said.... All technology has some learning curve.

Well regarding my AIW capturing, it certainly has been a learning curve. ATI technology failed in my case and no repy SOLUTION was recieved from ATI help, as my old home movies would not cature on 2 computers both with ATI cards. And no one has given an answer as to AIW cards having a built in Macrovision detection, which may get triggered in capturing old tapes? As I said before many other ATI users on other forums suffer simular capturing problems...

[lordsmurf]

Lordsmurf - Either post the method to make it work, or stop telling people it will. .. My experience with ATI leads me to believe that you MIGHT have gotten it to work once or twice but have been unable to reliably duplicate those results.

The process works, been repeated many times. It requires a lot of steps, some custom hacks, and other downloads. People PM me when they want to know more about it. And I tell them.

[LOWTECH]

I will ask one last time can anybody confirm or not as the case maybe, that ATI AIW cards have Macrovision detection built into the card?

[lordsmurf]

I will ask one last time can anybody confirm or not as the case maybe, that ATI AIW cards have Macrovision detection built into the card?

Into the drivers on some, hardware on others. Most cards, DVD recorders, and VCRs do. As well they should.

The thinking MV exists when it does not is the aggravation, but the issue is dirty tape signals. You have to clean it.

[Nelson37]

For the older ATI cards, there are MV software hacks which DO work. For somewhat newer cards, the software hack plus a $39.95 SCM does the trick. SFAIK, the 9000 series defeat even these methods - I do not have a 9000 series card.

Many cards which implement MV detection will falsely detect MV on a less-than-perfect signal. ATI is merely the most common. There are also many cards which ignore MV. There may come a day when they are forced to cease distribution AND SUPPORT in countries where MV is supported by law.

LordSmurf - I believe that multiple mentions of a process, desired by many, which is only available on a paid area of another site constitutes advertising a for-profit service, which SFAIK is prohibited on this site.

[joezvjersky]

Actually, there is a rather simple way to use mmc 9.02 with aiw rage 128, and probably with the pro-version, too.
I have done it with a non-pro version (PAL), 32Mb RAM and a theater 100 chip onboard, and apart from eazylook, it works perfectly.
The point of the process is to install a 128 card drivers, but without MMC.Then you should unplug the card and replace it with ANY radeon card, because it is necessary to install mmc 9.02. Good thing is that the installation is only checking once, wether it has a radeon card installed, wich makes the whole scheme possible.
Upon installation of mmc9.02, just plug back your old card and reboot.
I can't find the link to the detailed explanation, but I know I found it on one of the specialized ATI forums, and it was brought by a guy called Leonidas Vouros.

[videopete]

If I had a generic radeon card then I would try this but I do not.

The only reason I wish to upgrade the MMC 7.7 software is because of the slight video stutters I am experiencing from time to time while the audio remains perfect. I was assuming that the 7.7 software had something to do with it - does anyone have any other suggestions as to what could be causing this slight stutter in the video during the capture - it looks as though frames were dropped but there was no mention of this at all and the cpu was quite low throughout??? Any other ideas? could a fragmented hd cause this?? Or is it really related to the MMC 7.7 software?

[mastersmurfie]

videopete-

Thought I'd throw my 2 cents worth in here too...

VideoPete - Lower resolution, bitrate, and/or eliminate audio. This will reduce HD filesize and test if throughput is the problem.

good advice /\

I use the same card, and this was my problem. When I capture at "DVD" quality (MPEG-2 8.00 M Bit/Second 720X480, NTSC) I too get a sometimes "stuttering" video.

If I lower the bitrate to 6.00 and the resolution to 352X240, it works like a charm..

[LOWTECH]

Lordsmurf... You posted..

<The thinking MV exists when it does not is the aggravation, but the issue is dirty tape signals. You have to clean it.>

How does one clean it .... as tapes play perfectly on any other media player? LOWTECH...

[lordsmurf]

Filter it. TBC, filters, etc

[videopete]

Has anyone used OTHER capture software with their ATI cards besides any of the MMC versions from ATI?? I was told that virtualVCR or virtualdub might be better...and I also heard that you should only use ATI MMC software with the ATI theatre-based chip cards.....
I'm grasping at straws here to find my solution to the video stutter.....
I'm also trying MPEG2 capture gop structure 1-3-2 to see if that yields better results but it does keep my cpu around 85% so I keep a close eye on it and for dropped frames...so far no probs with dropped frames and cpu remains in 70-85 range. But an answer on OTHER software might save me some time as well.
As usual, thanks in advance for allyour help.

[LOWTECH]

videopete, I have had 6 months of frustration with my ATI AIW 3yr old card, I gave up with trying to capture clean anologue home movies. After no constructive response from e-mails to ATI, I bought a firewire card and lead for £18 in england and now capture anything I throw at it perfectly..... And to think I paid £110 for the ATI AIW card that developed into a capturing nightmare after 2 years use......

It may be your answer also, I hope this is of some help to you if you haven`t considered it....

[videopete]

What exactly did you buy?
Firewire card I know...but what is lead?
Can you send model #'s of what you bought...will definitely investigate it...
Thx.

[LOWTECH]

videopete .. The lead or cable is just like a USB cable, but a firewire cable.

A basic firewire card can be bought anywhere. I installed my firewire card, XP recognised it ok. I play old vhs anologue tapes in my vcr which is connected to my camcorder anologue in & out, and onto the firewire card.

I know a brand name in england called BELKIN sell a lead/cable with a convertor built into the cable so you can connect a vcr direct to a usb port and transfer/capture tapes also. Via USB2

http://catalog.belkin.com/IWCatProductPage.process?Merchant_Id=&Section_Id=200599&pcou...USB%2FUSB20%2F

Hope I have been helpful....

[spectroelectro]

You asked "The more I read and here about ATI cards, about installing this and that and the trouble it causes...... one has to wonder why? "

Because if you can get the ati AIW 7200/7500/8500 etc. to work on your system, you can get an amazing array of excellent results. That's a big if and you have to have a pretty fast computer to get the best possible results, particularly if you want to capture MPEG-2 in real time. Also, be aware that the ATI AIW is notorious for its excessive sensitivity to wonky sync signals on the source VHS tape. And older VHS tape is likely to be problematic for an ATI AIW unless you use a digital full frame TBC.

Properly set up, an ATI AIW will let you:

capture in Type 2 DV AVI format
capture in huffyuv format
capture in XVid or Divx format
capture in a startling range of real-time MPEG-2 frame resolutions,
from standard stuff like half d1 352 x 480 and full D1 720 x 480
to oddball non-standard resolutions like 720 x 240 mpeg-2 and
352 x 240 MPEG-2, and of course MPEG-1 if you want.

And the video capture quality is excellent.

All this from an el cheapo $70 used ATI AIW card from ebay. That's
a pretty great deal, if you think about it, compared to what you'd
have to spend on some Canopus firewire beast or a used
RTX100 or something like that. And you still wouldn't get the
flexibility you'd have with the ATI AIW.

Bototm line? Can take lots of hassle to get the ATI AIW. Rich
rewards if you do, and older ATI AIWs are available for a song
on ebay. You could even just buy the bare card and download
the ATI MMC and drivers etc. from ATI's website. That would
cost you about $25 or so total...surely one of the bargains of
the century for what you get.

The downside is that it may require some real computer expertise
to get that ATI AIW working on your machine, and you'd better have
a fast one. 2 Ghz P4 or AMD Sempron minimum.

[lordsmurf]

The downside is that it may require some real computer expertise to get that ATI AIW working on your machine, and you'd better have a fast one. 2 Ghz P4 or AMD Sempron minimum.

More like 1.5Ghz minimum. Moderately fast is all you need. No 3Ghz beasts are required.

Everything else, well said.

[aaronrus]

There are ways to install ATI MMC 8.7 on these 128 PRO cards, but I do not discuss them here due to all that is involved.

lordsmurf, are the ATi AIW cards full hardware encoding or do they use software to do the realtime MPEG-2 encoding?

[lordsmurf]

Mix of both.

[LOWTECH]

spectroelectro ..... Like you say... IF... you can get your ATI AIW card to work there is no problem.

I bought my AIW card on the back of 2 friends buying an ATI card. When my AIW card refused to capture old home movies I tried to capture on one of my friends computer still with no success as both cards treated the movies as having MACROVISION.

I then ditched the capture side of the card for a firewire card and now capture all MY OLD VHS MOVIES with brilliant results through my digital camcorders anologue in & out system.

My brand new firewire card with cable and software cost £16 or about $28.
Even the movies that did capture, have been recaptured far better through the firewire card. I can now convert my movies into any format I wish, in my case DVDs.

I still cannot believe how one system of capturing with Firewire is so superior to the other with ATI AIW card....


I had 6 months of hell trying to capture my home movies using the AIW card. It captured new movies but refused to capture any thing more than 3 years old. So with home movies of 12 years old they had no chance of being captured.

With forum help ranging from try this and that, and upgrade your driver etc etc. None of this to me should be necessary with a plug and play device and has proved a major problem to many with ATI cards.

You also say...The downside is that it may require some real computer expertise to get that ATI AIW working on your machine..... That to me and probably many others, is a death threat for any product!