Canopus MPEG PRO MVR vs. Pinnacle DC1000

[aaronrus]

I've narrowed it down to these two capture cards, because they both handle NTSC and PAL, and they are both a little higher end than some of the other cards that are praised on this group. Also, more importantloy perhaps, they both have some form of built in pre-filtering and/or TBC , which will hopefully eliminate the need for an external TBC. I can get a Pinnacle DC1000 for about $250 used from a friend, but it is the older version that has all the seperate connections on the card, instead of a single connector and breakout box, and much of the software is missing. I also can get a brand new Canopus MPEG Pro MVR for about $430 shipped. Ideally, I don't want to spend more than $300, but I also believe that ultimately, you get what you pay for.

Now i was reading up on the dc1000, and it is listed as having digital pre-filtering before it encodes MPEG-2. Does anybody have any experience with this card and can confirm how well it filters? Is it a full TBC, or just a digital filter? I can't seem to find any literature on it that confirms or denies this.

The Canopus MPEG Pro MVR is supposed to have a full TBC on board and 3d separation and filtering, which would negate the need to purchase an external TBC, especially since my home JVC VCR already has one built in.

If the DC1000 has a good TBC built in, then i would lean towards purchasing it, since it is cheaper for me. ANy thoughst and opinions would be greatly appreciated

[edDV]

I don't recall the dc1000 having a TBC function. It will try to lock to a VHS source. Better check that out. It's also an older card that may not have full support.

[lordsmurf]

I have been warned about the Canopus MPEG hardware converters seriously lacking in both quality and functionality.

Just passing that along...

Being a Canopus product, I'm really not surprised. Overpriced, overrated, and underquality. Figures...

Also, be careful when Canopus says something is a "TBC" ... their typical fishy marketing BS is not to be trusted. Better do some research. When it comes to Canopus hardware, you really have to cut through all the crap to learn the truth. A lot of companies in the past 1-2 years have started calling things TBCs when they really were not. Also be careful of "virtual TBCs" and similar buzzwords that may mean "NOT REALLY A TBC".

Companies like Panasonic, Sony and Canopus have just become downright obnoxious recently, seriously overcharging for the name alone, and having lots of low quality, with lots of BS. They seem pretty attached to the P.T. Barnum philosophy.

[nelson133]

Read around the forums and you will find some here have irrational hatred for certain products, whether they have used them or not. Nyah Levi

[aaronrus]

well, I appreciate people's opinions about a company's reputation. I'd still like to hear from someone who has actual real world experience with such a card, or at least knows of a review on it... anybody?

here's the info on the Canopus Pro MVR, related to the pre-filtering specs, striaght from their website:

MPEGPRO pre-filtering features:
> Digital 3D Y/C Separation – Separates the Y/C (S-Video) signal to RGB using chronological information between signals. (applicable for NTSC only)
> Digital 3D Digital Noise Reduction - Eliminates noise in the analog video signal by detecting noise based on the characteristics.
> Digital 3D Frame Synchronizer - Stores incoming signals into a frame buffer to supply a stable, synchronized signal to the MPEG encoder chip.
> Digital Line Time Base Corrector (TBC) - Detects images with strong vertical jitter and employs powerful correction methods to repair the jitter.
> Digital Auto Gain Control (AGC) - Automatically adjusts the input video level. (defeatable)

[pfh]

Sounds like similar technology incorparated in the high end JVC vcr's.
I'd love to see what those Mpeg Pro's do too

[lordsmurf]

Read around the forums and you will find some here have irrational hatred for certain products, whether they have used them or not. Nyah Levi

Like I said, smart guy, just passing along some advice from others (people that know far more than either you or I), coupled with issues (marketing BS) very familiar with their other products. Warnings are indeed appropriate when it comes to "TBC" and certain companies known for hype and hoopla.

I want the poster to do some research, and certainly not take the company's ads at face value. There is justifiable reason for it.

> Digital Line Time Base Corrector (TBC) - Detects images with strong vertical jitter and employs powerful correction methods to repair the jitter.

Some posters were discussing this in a thread some days ago. This sounds a LOT like a FAKE TBC, both because it is "digital" (which CAN be a buzz word, but is not always the case) and because it is there to "repair the jitter" (which is NOT the only thing a TBC should do). That is simply some sort of sync hardware. Or so the description gives. is the description incomplete? Is calling it a "TBC" a stretch? Those are the question that need be on your mind.

[aaronrus]

here's a little bit better of an explanation of wwhats each part of it does.
it sounds to me liek its good hardware, just whomever wrote the product literature is an idiot, because frame syncronization is part of what a TBC does, and they have it listed separatley as a feature:

2D/3D Y/C separation - 2D Y/C separation separates Brightness (Y) and Chrominance (C) from the composite source signal by one frame.
3D Y/C separation separates by cross-referencing each frame with the frames immediately in front and behind, further refining and improving the overall imagequality. (NTSC only)

Digital 3D noise reduction – Eliminates noise in the analog video signal by detecting noise based on the characteristics

Digital 3D frame synchronizer – Stores incoming signals into a frame buffer to supply a stable, synchronized signal to the encoder chip

Digital Line Time Base Corrector (LTBC) – Detects images with strong horizontal jitter and employs powerful correction methods to repair the jitter Cleans and stabilizes old analog videotapes

Digital Auto Gain Control (AGC) – Automatically adjusts the input video level for a clearer picture




I still can't find any hands on reviews of this thing though, especially related to "VHS to DVD" transfers

[pfh]

Yeah, what's up with the lack of reviews?? I can't find much either. I certainly would want to see and hear about results before plunking down the money they want for one. Maybe the included s/w is driving the price?

[aaronrus]

Yeah, what's up with the lack of reviews?? I can't find much either. I certainly would want to see and hear about results before plunking down the money they want for one. Maybe the included s/w is driving the price?

agreed.. probbaly is. And to Lordsmurf, I don't disagree with you at all, i think alot of companies DO inflate the features on their products, but a genral rule of thumb is that you get what you pay for, just in my experience. Now apparently after doing some more research, the dc1000 from pinnacle DOEs have a TBC if you purchase one of the later board revisions, the one with the single output plug for the breakout cable, not the one that has 5 or 6 connectors on it. the Later revision DC1000 models are essentially a DC2000, just with a simpler breakout box and a different firmware that suppresses some of the functionality of the card.

Does anybody have a hack for this?

also, does anybody have a firmware or software hack so that the NTSC only version of the DC1000 can do both PAL and NTSC?

[racerxnet]

I have the Amber MPEG encoder, MVR, as well as Pro Coder. They are all very good products for thier intended purpose. The Amber and MVR are great when you can capture to MPEG 2 and burn without the need for editing. The results of the MVR Vs. the Amber is that it cleans up the signal from poor sources much better than the Amber.

As for the hype on Canopus products I have to say they provide a very good product for the money. Support has been quite good at the Canopus forum from the various members as well as from Canopus tech.

To Smurf: Quit your knocking Canopus "from other peoples word" !! If you cannot afford the products to test and give first hand experience, stay out of the discussion. Your ATI crap could not stand up to my wet jockstrap. I suppose my Levinson 33H monoblocks and RS 1 B's are not to good from your "Friends perspective"!!! If he could afford them then he is welcome to comment.

The DVRex Pro, Edius, Procoder, Amber, and MVR all have little quirks I may not like, but have been proven to be first class for what they are designed to do. I would suggest you go with your own impression of what will produce the best end result. Buyer Beware!!

MAK

[lordsmurf]

To Smurf: Quit your knocking Canopus "from other peoples word" !! If you cannot afford the products to test and give first hand experience, stay out of the discussion.

That may be fun for you to say and all, but consider this. Why would I waste time testing a product that has more negative reviews than positive ones? And we're talking VALID reviews here, from people I trust. Not a BS review from some casual joe-blow whining that he hates the color. The $600 price tag is not unaffordable, but if the features it claims to have are not truly there, then it is a rip-off. Especially if it turns out to be no better than a Hauppauge card, or worse. Another issue is these are realtime cards... does everybody need RT effects editing? You are only paying for a couple things here: realtime, the Canopus name, and the Edius software. You're not really paying for the MPEG hardware, not in comparison to the full price. Due to all the INCONSISTANCIES of information, I suggest NOTHING be taken at face value, and LOTS of research done before forking over hundreds of dollars. I think this is all sound advice. Not bashing.

Buyer Beware!!

Exactly.

[aaronrus]

well, it's settled for me! my friend who works in a video production studio said they have various MPEG real time encoders working on several different wirkstations in their studios, so i went by there and checked it out, and Voila! The Caqnopus MPEG-Pro MVR was there. We sat down and he performed VHS to DVD transfers using full badnwidth 12 Mbit VBR and half bandwidth 6Mbit VBR. There were ways to go up to 15Mbit, but he said for what we are doing, it is entirely unecessary, as properly compressed MPEG-2 at 6 Mbit, will be virtually indistinguishable from 12Mbit coming from a VHS source. So we performed the transfer, and I asked him not to use a TBC in between, and to enable all the pre-filtering settings in the software. We used a consumer grade JVC VCR, HRS3600U, and I transffered an Episode of He-man and the Masters of the Universe, then we added both coppies of the episode to a DVD, finalized it, and played it on a Sony DVD player, displaying it on a 42" Mitsubishi direct view monitor. I have to say, i was astonished at the quality. Maybe real motion would have been handled a little worse by the card, but there was NO artifacting that was recognizeable as artifacting, and we had the sharpness turned way up on the monitor too. there wasn't really even much "film grain" look to it. we did a side by side comparison of the VHS to the DVD, and thr DVD actually looked better! it was amazing.

Now, I couldn't let this test go unanswered, so we made a duplicate setup DVD, but this time using software MPEG encoding and direct .AVI capture using a Matrox RT2500 and MJPEG 2.5:1, also on the same system. after displaying them side by side in an A/B comparison using another DVD player, same model, with the sharpness turned all the way up, it was determined that they were virtually indistinguishable. Actually, the colors weren't as vivid from this batch, and there was a little more of a film grain look to it using the RT2500, but I imagine that was because it is a different capture card and the default settinsg were a little different.

Anyways. I didnt test any other hardware MPEG encoders, but I didn't feel the need, as I was satisfied with the quality.

[racerxnet]

Please provide some proof to your position regarding the Canopus negetive reviews. It is the least you could do to refute the claims as the product being inferior vs. other products similar. Please quote which features are not included with the product being evaluated??

I personally test before I would give a reply as it gives one a better insight to the capabilities than second hand news from other sources.

Brand identity is what all companys strive for. Canopus is no different than Hauppage, ATI, or Matrox. All companies strive to provide value for the dollar spent. If this means that the Canopus has very few problems with the data transfer and is easy to use, so be it. Time is a valuable source of income, and not spending extra time and resources to transfer analog to digital is value in most everyones opinion. Canopus does this very well with all the products I own.

Real time effects are part of the PROFESSIONAL business I provide on the side. Its value is that I can see in real time the effects I provide for the customer. If the customer does not like it I can change the output to meet the demand. It is something the ATI card cannot do at all. This saves me once again "Time and Money" for both the customer and me. The software I purchase for my Canopus products was developed specifically for the application at hand. I have tried and use several other editing software for the task at hand. All have advantages /disadvatages.

Other benifits to the RT capabilities are 7 different layers of audio/video. None of which ATI provides. All other competitors to the Canopus line of RT cards are in the same cost area as well. So, NO you are not paying for the name. Avid being quit a bit higher in price.

I certainly will continue to test in the environment the hardware was meant to work in. I take this same approach with the high end audio as well. I do not take others word for granted as the final say on my purchase decision. I like to keep an open mind on other products in the market.

MAK

[lordsmurf]

Please provide some proof to your position regarding the Canopus negetive reviews.

You cannot "prove" a review. I cannot "prove" a negative stance any more than you can "prove" a positive stance. They are reviews.

but he said for what we are doing, it is entirely unecessary,

Yeah, this was something I was getting at earlier. If you do not need RT, etc, then $600 may not be necessary. A no-edit direct MPEG transfer, in high quality, can just as easily be done with a Hauppauge or ATI card, both of which are sold in the $100 price range. I would question the relevance of spending $500 more on unused features, but if the card is what you want, enjoy. It has some advanced features for future growth. If you plan to use this for ANY live-action work, realize a cartoon is not a proper test. Cartoons require miminal settings comparatively.

[nelson133]

Being a Canopus product, I'm really not surprised. Overpriced, overrated, and underquality. Figures...
Yeah, here's an objective thoughful response. Those of us on this forum who have used Canopus products for years with great results certainly are put in our place by this. The last discussion on the Canopus AVDC 100 started by this posted had overwhelmingly positive comments by those who used the product and negative comments from those who hadn't tried it . Seems the didn't want to be confused by the facts. I love the "I know it doesn't work so I don't have to test it" approach, it's just such a useful and informative opinion.
Oh yeah, by the way AMD computers are no good and ATI cards are the best even with their synch and software problems, my mistake. Nyah Levi

[rkgibbons]

My apologies for arriving late to the party!

I'm a long time DC1000 and DC2000 user...and I can answer some of the questions posted above.

1. The newer DC1000 card (with the single connector) is the EXACT same card as the DC2000 card. The DC2000 is just supplied with a bigger breakout box (with component inputs/outputs, and balanced XLR audio i/o). The DC2000 also shipped with a ProVTR cable and software (for deck control). There is no firmware difference between the two cards. If you plug the DC2000 breakout box into the DC1000 card, it recognizes the card as a DC2000, and provides all of the advanced i/o options. One thing to note: these cards will also accept the professional breakout box that the old DC50 card used to use -- and you can grab these off of eBay for very little money these days. So, you can convert your DC1000 to DC2000 with little expense.

2. The DC1000 does not have full TBC functionality. It does an excellent job of synching audio and video (even VHS footage), however, it does not correct for screen distortions caused by VHS footage. So, after two hours of recording VHS, you'll still be in sync, but your VHS footage will be filled with the occasional screen glitch, flicker etc.

I use a Datavideo TBC-1000 for all of my DC1000 VHS captures -- the combination produces stunning video and audio quality.

3. The DC1000 is a dated piece of equipment and is no longer supported by Pinnacle. I would not invest in this product if you intend to use it for very long, as it will not operate with new editing software (Premiere 6.5 is the last version that will work) or any future operating systems (although it works fine in Windows XP).

Hope this helps.

Keith.

[aaronrus]

My apologies for arriving late to the party!

I'm a long time DC1000 and DC2000 user...and I can answer some of the questions posted above.



Keith.

hey keith, question: for the NTSC only capture cards:

Is there a firmware hack or a software hack that allows the NTSC only DC1000 cards to capture both NTSC and PAL signals?

[rkgibbons]

There is no firmware hack that I've ever heard of that would allow you to capture both PAL and NTSC on an NTSC-only DC1000 board...and I've been following the DC1000 scene for several years now (it was once a thriving community, but has dwindled to nothing more than the occasion comment on various forums through the web...)

In fact, I've never heard of any firmware updates (or update utility) for the DC1000 card. All updates were performed to the drivers themselves.