ATI MMC 7.2

[foggycity]

Finally!

http://support.ati.com/issuetype/driverdirect.html

[Cheesemeister2000]

Hmmmmm.... no sign of it there !

[leebo]

I found it OK.

[jeremypps]

It seems it's out only for xp, for other os there's still 7.1.

[neomaine]

As far as I'm concerned, don't use it. I know its meant for XP, but, I'm running ME. Its functionality is OK but I ended up ripping it all out and re-itstalling 7.1 because it took too long to change the channel on my AIW Radeon 32AGP. So long, that the dvcr died waiting for the channel to change in order to record. Maybe it would have been ok if the tuner was already set to that channel, but...the reason I use the dvcr is so I don't have to be there. And dambit, Babylon 5, Enterprise, Roswell are all on different channels here.

[Pfarrer]

Hi all,
Have Win98SE, Voodoo 5 and TV-Wonder. Been using MMC 7.1. Installed the *.cab files from 7.2 with 7.1 setup. Got it to function. Now have TV-on-demand feature, which is provoided by atidvcr.dll. Still need atimpenc.dll with higher resolutions enabled (720x576). Only get 640X240. Any ideas.

[energy80s]

Does anyone know if this "XP" version of MMC 7.2 works OK with Win98 SE??? I don't want to mess with my existing setup unless I definately know its going to help me out!

[ngnr]

Can anyone who is using this in _XP_ comment as to the stability of 7.2MMC software and/or the 6.13.3276 drivers? My XP system is stable (minimal drops with VDub & AVI_IO) with the stock MS drivers but I want to upgrade to see if there are any performance gains. Last time I did such a thing in W2k I was reaaally sorry because I started getting dropped frames and instability - damn thing just didn't work right. Does this thing work or am I going to be sorry again?

[alucard2050]

MMC sucks in my opinion. only benifit i get from it is my captures for some reason turn out to have no interlace lines, whereas any other program i use has the interlace. then i have to deinterlace, which in turn makes my video blurry. but still better than MMC..........

[leebo]

I installed 7.2 (it still said 7.1 during install) in an XP machine I built just for the AIW Radieon.
TV on demand captures, but as soon as I try to time shift my computer freezes and I have to reboot.

[Pace]

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>
On 2001-11-29 11:20:49, Pfarrer wrote:
...Now have TV-on-demand feature, which is provoided by atidvcr.dll...
</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

As another user of TV-wonder I'd like to know how did you do that?
I have tried everything as I have noticed that it is restricted by software and not by hardware as Ati claims. I've tried everything; edited registry, modified files... but with no luck. Could you give me specific instruction how did you do it?

Thanks.

[EDIT]Figured it out my self, but thanks for the tip.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pace on 2001-12-02 13:03:26 ]</font>

[homerpez]

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>
On 2001-11-29 21:05:40, alucard2050 wrote:
MMC sucks in my opinion. only benifit i get from it is my captures for some reason turn out to have no interlace lines, whereas any other program i use has the interlace. then i have to deinterlace, which in turn makes my video blurry. but still better than MMC..........
</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

You guessed right! And, it seems you and I are in the same boat here.

I used to use MMC for the longest time, because the captures for MPEG were progressive (easy to work with). I eventually had to stop using it, because it would unpredictably start dropping frames, desynching, and even making corrupt captures that crashed every player that attempted to play them.

7.2 is, without a doubt, worse on every front. It's slower, drops more frames, no getting around it. I with they would simply work on speed/buffering and synch adjustment (they should make audio resynch to dropped audio frames, and vise-versa, like V-Dub). Then MMC would be an awesome piece of software.

[next]

I have pretty much tried most capture software out there and I still always fall back on MMC 7.1 (7.2). I capture using an AIW pro 128 and have found that dropped frame issues are usually the result of under powered boxes. The reason I say most problems is because there can still be problems with inefficient configurations as far as allocation of resources go.

I always fall back to MMC 7.1 (7.2) because the quality of real time Mpeg2 captures is always excellent. I capture at 480x480 with CBR and VBR bit rates as high as 5 mps with no dropped frames. My CBR captures are usually between 2.5 mps and 3.2 mps and my VBR captures go as high as 5 mps depending on the length of the capture. Anything above these bit rates is overkill for me because I still want to be able to burn a decent amount of time onto a CDR. I've got 3 boxes with AIW pro's and the slowest one, a 900mhz Athlon has no problems with dropped frames.

As far as A/V sync issues go they are not limited to AIW's. The usenet groups are littered with tens of thousands of complaints with A/V sync problems with every type of capture hardware imaginable. I've pretty much come down to the opinion that many of these sync problems are the result of a difference in the capture frequencies of the sound card and the video capture device. This can especially reek havoc with real time mpeg2 captures. It is simply short sighted and simplistic to think that it is solely an AIW or ATI issue.

ATI compensates for many variables with its mpeg2 captures. The are hundreds if not thousands of harware combinations out there. Different motherboards, chip sets, cpu's, sound cards, bios configurations, etc...etc. If you attempt to demux an AIW mpeg2 capture you will generally see up to 4 capture streams. A video stream, an audio stream, a padded stream, and a private stream. I think ATI is compensating for these many variables by creating these 4 streams to fix A/V sync problems. The result is that the mpeg2 captures play fine with the in the box ATI software (MMC) but have problems when these mpeg2 captures are edited with 3rd party editing software. This problem is not unique to ATI.

I have found that the key is to find an editing program that will address all 4 streams when editing. The one that I have found that works the best is M-2 edit pro. When editing using M2-edit I never have A/V sync problems with the resulting cuts/edits of my mpeg2 captures. As a matter of fact M2-edit pro works so well that you can actually capture at very high bit rates in order to force dropped frames in MMC and then edit in M2-edit. The resulting edits will have no A/V sync problems. This has been discussed at length at the SVCD forum over at Network 54. As a matter of fact I came up with an M2-edit/Mpeg2vcr combination that always works for MMC mpeg2 captures for SVCD's. Again discussed at length at Network 54. It took me about a month trying numerous combinations of many programs but I've never had a problem since.

Also there are some good tips on this site for fixing A/V sync problems that involve offsetting the audio stream. While this is good advice I found that it was too much of a guessing game for me. Although you can get good results it is not always perfect for sync problems that tend to drift and get worse as the file plays.

Just to review -

Dropped frames - underpowered box or very poor box setup.

A/V sync - edit with the right program.

[homerpez]

Underpowered box? B.S. there.

Mine's an Athlon 1 Ghz CPU, 512MB PC-133 SDRAM, and plenty of HD space. Theoretically, no problem for ATI's software. YET THERE ARE PROBLEMS.

These are erratic, and there is definitely a point about sound synch issues. It would be fine, and I doubt it would even be percievable, if 2% of frames get dropped in an MPEG-2 capture, as long as it behaived similar to V-dub (compensating for the missed audio synch by also missing that much video). Without them fixing this, you get botched captures. In my case, some have even been so corrupt as to crash players I try to play them back with!

Review: ATI needs to fix the audio/video/frame drops issue, NOW!

[Macros746]

Next,
Well, it is nice of you to be so good to ATI but the fact of the matter is they have the BEST hardware in the business with the WORST driver and software support. This is known and talked about on every ATI forum I have ever seen. There are many people that install their cards use the drivers and software and never have a problem. For those few...great...for the rest of us. ATI's conduct when it comes to product support is reprehensible. If they had the driver coders that Nvidia has they would be ahead of the race now as opposed to behind. (I am saying this as someone who, after MUCH tweaking, has gotten my AIW to work beautifully and LOVE it....but one shouldn't have to work so hard to get something to work the way it is supposed to)

[sommersby]

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>
On 2001-11-29 20:51:50, ngnr wrote:
Can anyone who is using this in _XP_ comment as to the stability of 7.2MMC software and/or the 6.13.3276 drivers? My XP system is stable (minimal drops with VDub & AVI_IO) with the stock MS drivers but I want to upgrade to see if there are any performance gains. Last time I did such a thing in W2k I was reaaally sorry because I started getting dropped frames and instability - damn thing just didn't work right. Does this thing work or am I going to be sorry again?
</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>
I use 7.2 with Windows xp and it works GREAT! Including Vdub and tempeg at all resolutions. But before you install it, create a restore point, and if for some reason you do have a problem, unistall it and then restore to the point you created.
You will be right back to were you were.

[FilComArt]

Now you can download MMC7.5 (coped from ATI installation CD) too.
This version is for the AiW8500DV, but working on AiWRadeon.


ftp://208.37.167.32/ /tagged/MmcDvd7.zip

ftp://63.104.164.33/_vti_pvt/010930...C75/MmcDvd7.zip

PS: About MMC7.2. - i haven't dropped frame on my Duron850.

[leebo]

filcom,
your first link says I don't have permission, and the second one just says "Cannot find server".

[homerpez]

Just to keep the heated debate going:

Anyone saying that they "haven't dropped a frame" using MMC, is simply not trying a complicated enough capture, or they're plain lying.

Particularly with a 1Ghz processor or slower. They have to be capturing VCD res...

On the original software that came with the original AIW Radeon, I honestly didn't drop frames either, though there were other issues. This got worse and worse, and anything 7.1 and better I can't capture 640x480 without dropping frames (and, ultimately, a corrupt capture I can't use or play back).

NOTE: Same hardware, same disk configuration. Only the software sucks.

BTW: Yes, those two links are also non-working for me...

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: homerpez on 2001-12-05 19:59:28 ]</font>

[alucard2050]

homerpez, i was trying for the longest time to get mmc working good for me and i think you were the one constantly on me about dropping it. THANK GOD i did. although, i have an AMD900 with 256mgs. i was capturing with the Huffyuv codec and not dropping any frames from what i could tell but, when i tried to capture an mpeg2 or higher bitrate i dropped frames like crazy. another factor might be when i capture, nothing else is running and sucking up ram. my biggest problem was i couldn't capture at anything higher than ***x240. now i'm useing iuvcr and no problems with it. captureing at whatever res. i want. mmc is history for me.........

[next]

homerpez - sounds like its a combination of your box and possibly your setup. I just set up a test capture using MMC 7.2 at 640x480 mpeg2 at 4.44 mps CBR which is a higher resolution needed for SVCD and a full 2 mps higher than the specifications for SVCD. ME at 100. No dropped frames. This is on a 1.2 mhz Athlon box.

The exact same capture on an Athlon 900 mhz and on an Athlon 950 mhz classic drops frames. Not terrible but still drops some. Both the 900 and 950 can capture 480x480 till the cows come home with no dropped frames.

I limit my resolutions to 480x480 but I wanted to test your 640x480 "complicated" theory. It sounds like your box might be on the edge power wise or that you've hosed around with your box too much and killed its resource efficiency. You mentioned that things seem to have gotten worse over time.

[homerpez]

Try 640x480, mpeg-2, 5.00MB/sec bitrate. 100 Motion search. Good luck.

I used to be able to do that no problem, but I eventually had to tweak down, to the 5MB bitrate setting, because anything higher would drop frames seriously.

So I might not have trouble with the 4.44 bitrate, but I've had other problems with bitrates that "low" (mostly encoding-on-the-fly motion search errors and blocks in the initial capture using MPEG-2).

I noticed a lot of people saying they use Huffy and don't drop any frames... me neither! It's Huffy! I can use V-dub capturing 352x480 and barely scratch any of my resources... except for disk space...

[FilComArt]

The two links is taked from http://www.rage3d.com forums. I can post one more link: ftp://65.31.48.88:22/

PS:About VirtualDub. I use 1.4.7. and Hyffy2.1.1. under WinXP and under Win2000 with SP2 and registry changes as suggested on http://www.virtualdub.org in the OLD news. And I haven't dropped rames under Win2000, but not under WinXP (~1-5%).

[next]

homerpez - well now I'm confused. Kind of like I was a few months ago when you were trying to jam 2+ hours on one CDR then complaining about the quality and blaming your DVD player's weak laser or somthing like that...

If you can do mpeg2 captures in MMC at 640x480 CBR 4.44 mps then what are you complaining about? Remember AIW's are not harware mpeg capture cards. And 4.4 mps mpeg2 CBR is serious overkill even for XSVCD.

Also remember that capturing AVI vs mpeg is like comparing apples to toy trains. AVI capture is much less resource demanding than mpeg. Everybody knows that. Perhaps you should spend some time looking at the dynamics and the differences between mpeg and AVI captures. Remember mpeg captures do compression on the fly which can really kill resources when it comes to software (vs hardware) mpeg encoding. And also remember that MMC does real time deinterlacing on the fly which really is alot to ask for in software encoding. None of this is happening with your huffy AVI captures.

My goal in capturing mpeg2 is to create a decent real time capture while avoiding extremely time consuming subsequent encoding. In my case I capture, edit, and burn. The post capture process takes minutes. If, as you mentioned, you're trying to do mpeg2 captures at 640x480 5+ mps and then re-encode these captures down to SVCD specs(? - not sure if that's what you're doing) then you might as well capture in AVI if you have the disk space.

My choice is to capture directly to mpeg2 at the specs I want my burn to be at - SVCD or XSVCD. Much more simple, its real time, and the quality is excellent. All this with a $99 card with "in the box software" that works well.

Can't beat it. My AIW's do a great job. And so does yours if it can do 640x480 4.4 mps CBR mpeg2 with no frame loss...

[next]

FilmComArt - Thanks for the link to Rage3D.

Here's the link to the thread:

http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?s=84f9ed7d299398a9f26d472e4c9f9c83&threadid...0&pagenumber=1

It has some great screen shots of MMC 7.5. I still have not been able to get my hands on it yet though.

edit -

Another great thread:

http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?s=84f9ed7d299398a9f26d472e4c9f9c83&threadid...hlight=mmc+7.5

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: next on 2001-12-06 09:08:34 ]</font>

[amgqmp]

where did you guys find 7.2 mmc and 7.5 mmc? I'd sure love to get my hands on something that will work with my Geforce2 card under XP on my TV Wonder PCI...

[Macros746]

I haven't tried either yet but from the rave reviews up over on Rage3d.com I would say skip MMC 7.2 and go right for MMC 7.5. I need to find it around myself....I'm guessing it should be pretty widespread by next week....


Mark

[next]

Finally found it and downloaded it. I'm going to play with it a bit before I post. Probably going to start a new MMC 7.5 thread too.

[amgqmp]

Please...any help on where to locate and download would be appreciated! If it's a private link, please e-mail me at amgqmp1@home.com

Thanks!

[amgqmp]

Ah, ok...sorry for the stream of dumba$$ posts...
I found it...but...it states NOT to use it with ATI TV Wonder...which I have. Anyone know where to download 7.5 (or does 7.2 really work with the TV Wonder?)

Mucho graci!