Capturing to an external hard drive

[alegator]

I just captured a 2 hour analog Hi8 tape to an external USB2 7200RPM IBM HD using Canopus ADVC-100 and Adobe Premiere 1.5 and Premiere reported no dropped frames. My question is: is this report by Premiere 100% reliable or are there actually some dropped frames? Is USB2 and/or FW400 data transfer rates high enough to sustain this job without any dropped frames during capture? If so, should I use USB2 or FW400?
Thanks.

[vhelp]

@ alegator

To test this (to be sure of no dropped frames) I would get a hold of DVIO
and run the same capture source through it. It has a "dropped frames"
field in its "capture bar" at the top.

if you drops, then you have a great setup w/ your ADVC-100

Thats my next move, when I get the chance to hook up my "external
USB2" hard drive enclosure unit. Its the kind that takes a normal hd you
have laying around, and you install it inside this box. etc etc. Anyways.

Good luck,
-vhelp

[redwudz]

I think as long as you are transferring just DV, dropped frames shouldn't be much of a problem with a USB device. If you were using a capture card, capturing, say with Huffy, it would probably be more questionable.

I still like the external boxes with both USB 2.0 and Firewire. More options if you have problems. But it sounds like USB is working for you.

[SatStorm]

It is DV so what premiere reported to you is true.

Regarding USB, the older 1.1 version was very limited for anything. The latest USB 2 is enough for that you are doing

[snafu099]

I have used both the ADS usb InstantDvd-2 and the Compro usb VideoMate Live in conjunction with external usb hdd.

Either connected via usb 1 or 2 port, I had no problems as long as the capture bitrate was below the data transfer rate of the external hdd. Even with usb-1 with a good hdd that provided a rate of 9+mb so I had no problems

[Capmaster]

Regarding USB, the older 1.1 version was very limited for anything.

An oft-quoted fallacy :P

USB1.1 is limited to 12 Mbps. Fully-compliant DVD is limited to 9.8 Mbps. Exceeding 9.8 will bring in compatibility issues with certain players.

Even allowing for audio using 224 Kbps, a non-optimum cable and communication speeds, and limiting your cable to 12" or so, you should still be able to safely capture VBR with the peak at about 8.8 or 9 Mbps without dropped frames. Fully satisfactory for about any capturing.

I've done it with no troubles. Anyone who tells you that you can't capture full DVD speeds over USB1.1 is trying to sell you a USB2 device, or doesn't know any better

If your capture device is the only device on the port, you should have no problem.

[Dr. DOS]

I've done it with no troubles. Anyone who tells you that you can't capture full DVD speeds over USB1.1 is trying to sell you a USB2 device, or doesn't know any better

I have never been able to capture higher than 6Megs (720x480 with 224MPEG Audio) on a 1.1 USB Port. Even if USB 1.1 is capped at 12M I'm guessing there is overhead processing, etc that drops that 12 down a tad. IMO.

[Capmaster]

I've done it with no troubles. Anyone who tells you that you can't capture full DVD speeds over USB1.1 is trying to sell you a USB2 device, or doesn't know any better

I have never been able to capture higher than 6Megs (720x480 with 224MPEG Audio) on a 1.1 USB Port. Even if USB 1.1 is capped at 12M I'm guessing there is overhead processing, etc that drops that 12 down a tad. IMO.

Cable quality? Did you try a good, short, active cable, or was it the 1-meter passive cable that came with the unit?

I used this one when I was still capping using USB1.1:

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=624689&Sku=B131-7011

With USB2 I'm now using a passive 3 foot cable, as its speed is waaaay overkill for MPEG capture

[arcorob]

On this thread

Any problem with capturing from a SONY camera DV via firewire, to a firewire connected hard drive ? Any conflict ?

I ask because I plan on taking an older PIII and just using for capturing video. Once on my external drive, i will bring it to the main machine for edditing , rendering, etc. Why you may ask ?

I spend alot of time editting, etc . , things I need to do that don't tie up the machine but require my manual work. I also need to capture hours and hours of wedding which would prevent this. So.....One machine to do the grunt work, the other my main machine..

Anyway, thoughts on the question would be appreciated......

[Capmaster]

Too bad you couldn't just buy a firewire drive and hang it on the end of your camcorder FW cable. But .... you can't do that.


Since firewire isn't true "capture" and is only file copying, speed isn't an issue unless it's so slow it's unacceptable. A P3 ought to be plenty for a dumb HD server. Transfering is going to be HD-intensive but not CPU-intensive, so you shouldn't have any trouble.

[arcorob]

awesome...I was worried about Firewire conflict. Right now I capture firewire to IDE (actually RAID ) and no issue, but wondered about two devices using Firewire at the same time....

The external HD is a Maxtor 200 GB 7200 RPM ATA133 IDE in an aftermarket enclosure/dual USB 2.0 or Firewire

Thank you !

[Capmaster]

awesome...I was worried about Firewire conflict. Right now I capture firewire to IDE (actually RAID ) and no issue, but wondered about two devices using Firewire at the same time....

The external HD is a Maxtor 200 GB 7200 RPM ATA133 IDE in an aftermarket enclosure/dual USB 2.0 or Firewire

Thank you !

There should be no problem. You can daisy-chain many devices on firewire. Having two shouldn't be a problem.

Just remember that firewire is slower than ATA133, so don't be disappointed that it's writing slower than it would if on the IDE channels.

Good luck 8)

[Bizuser]

The spec for USB2 is about 480 Mbits/sec. So thats about 60 MBytes/sec. I did actual tests using HDTach from Simpli Software, and it showed a sustained throughput of about 30 MBytes/sec to my USB drive (Maxtor one-touch 200 GB) - that's allowing for all the overhead of windows, etc. So 30 MBytes/sec is about 240 Mbits/sec, which is well in excess of most typical video streams.

I have read that USB2 takes more CPU bandwidth than Firewire, so if you were trying to do encoding/processing at the same time, you may get into issues. But for me, external USB2 drives have proven to be very useful.

I bought one of my motherboards because it had built-in firewire (Asus p4pe), but I could not get it to work ... I had to buy an add-in firewire card. So this suggests to me that firewire is just not as 'easy' as USB, which ships on every PC made.

The Maxtor one-touch devices have both USB 2 and Firewire ports.

One thing I personally worry about ... overheating. A lot of these external USB drives are in plastic cases and are fanless. I hate the noise of fans, so I've been buying the Maxtor one-touches because they have well-engineered aluminum cases that keep the drives cool without fans (Old maxtor one-touches were plastic, and they got VERY hot).

<update: throughput numbers in paragraph below corrected, thanks to subsequent post by Capmaster. I don't normally edit posts out of sequence but this is a glaring error!>
I'm now exploring sata drives. They are not technically supported and advertised as removable/external, but the sata electrical /mechanical spec IS hot-swappable (cables are designed for hot removal, with grounds connecting first on attachment, last on removal, etc). But it turns out that Promise-based sata cards don't handle this well; the Silicon Image chipsets that Adaptec (and others) use for their sata solution DO seem to handle this well. And there's a difference between on-board sata solutions (mobo) vs. add-in card Sata solutions ... Only the mobo based sata solutions, and only from intel, truly present the sata drive as a removable device that can be 'safely removed'. Anyway, SATA is a great future solution, and has a spec of 150 MBytes/sec, and HD Tach shows a sustained throughput on my machines of about 50 MBytes/sec.

150 MBytes/sec ==1.2 GBits/sec. So Sata is between double-to-triple the throughput of USB 2.

[Capmaster]

Anyway, SATA is a great future solution, and has a spec of 150 MBits/sec, and HD Tach shows a sustained throughput on my machines of about 50 MBytes/sec.

Good post but you're comparing apples and oranges. Remember that HD interfaces as well as PC internal busses, are rated in megabytes/sec and Firewire, USB1 & 2, as well as ethernet, wireless, broadband and modems are measured in megabits or kilobits/sec. You have to multiply bytes by 8 to get bits, plus any overhead bits, to get true transfer speed.

Your SATA is 150 megabytes/Sec which equates to a minimum of 1.2 Gigabits/sec. ATA133 equates to a minimum of about 1.04 Gigabits/sec. Use that formula when comparing ATA, SATA, firewire and USB and you'll keep the numbers straight.

[alegator]

What about Firewire 800 drives? Anyone has experienced Firewire 800? (It's supposed to be twice faster than standard Firewire). I own a Lacie external triple interface (USB2+FW400+FW800), but only used the USB2 and FW400 as my PC has no FW800 ports.

[alegator]

By the way, I've been looking around for a PCI card with USB2+FW400+FW800 ports but was unable to find one. If anyone knows of such a card please let me know. Thanks.

[Bizuser]

You know, I don't want to harp on too much about SATA, but you can pick up an Adaptec SATA card (with a Silicon Image chipset) for about $50 at CompUSA. You can buy an 'internal to external' cable adapter (simply provides you with a 'post' at the back of the PC with a 'female' SATA connector in it), and an 'external' grade 6 foot sata cable. Sata runs perfectly fine over long wires. My biggest hassle, believe it or not, is the stupid power lines ... it's easier to buy a 6 foot sata cable than it is a 6 foot power extender!

But like I said, this is emerging technology ... only 'some' sata chipsets deal well with 'hot removal' (if you are willing to reboot each time, you are fine). And, the first 'long sata' cables I bought were VERY thin and very cheap, and I got all kinds of errors. Upgrading to decent (but expensive) sata cables cured that.

Apparently the best sata solution is when you have some form of intel chipset integrated into the mobo; this makes your sata drive show up as a removable IDE drive. With the add-in cards I've tested (promise and silicon-image based), they show up as 'scsi' devices, and thus can't be treated by the OS as 'safely removable'.

I think that external sata drives will be the next thing. You can already buy 'metal gear box' sata external drive cases, by the way... http://www.envynews.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3036&goto=nextoldest

or try http://www.bjorn3d.com/read.php?cID=373
or http://www.techimo.com/articles/i82.html

[ZAPPER]

Capmaster

Too bad you couldn't just buy a firewire drive and hang it on the end of your camcorder FW cable. But .... you can't do that.

Why not?
I can capture live cam feed to my PC via FW.
I don't have an external HD to play with yet, but your idea makes me really want one to play with. I have seen ads for external HDs that are supposed to be able to capture or transfer direct from a cam. Is it a control issue? Like the HD knowing when to cap or a power supply problem? I know that if I leave my cam on standby in the camera mode that it turns off after a period of time, and that there was a post asking if this could be bypassed. I just tried a capture of live feed while in standby and it worked(albeit on my PC w/ unlead prompting the start and stop) The idea of shooting 10 hours of video without stopping to change tape has got me all worked up!(not that I have a need for it, but I can see a future in it) If the auto off in stand by issue can't be solved what about a dummy tape and the record mode?(I know that this would be abusive to a cam)
Please let me know what you might know or find out. I am going to look into this in a few other places or go buy a drive and see whats up.

[SatStorm]

@Capmaster: I don't know what "An oft-quoted fallacy" means. My english are not so good . Please,use more basic english when you wish to talk to me.

Regarding USB 1.1, on paper it is enough for many things. In practice, and who knows why, only few - like you - can report successfull results. Most people I know, including me, are not capable to use the 100% of what the USB 1.1 standard offers on paper.
It seems that only few are gifted in this world like you

I don't know the reasons: Some blame the drivers, some blame the windows, some blame the VIA chipset. But I do know that in practice, USB 1.1 is very limited for our hobby. On the capture Card reports, you can see many people reporting about practical limitations regarding the use of USB 1.1

[snafu099]

"I don't know the reasons: Some blame the drivers, some blame the windows, some blame the VIA chipset. But I do know that in practice, USB 1.1 is very limited for our hobby. On the capture Card reports, you can see many people reporting about practical limitations regarding the use of USB 1.1
"

From a practical standpoint, as a hobbest, not a professional, the data rate of usb (even usb-1) should not be a problem for most typical video captures. The typical movie length will most likley limit the bitrate used to one that even usb 1.1 can handle

Everything has it's limitations, just know what they are.

"On the capture Card reports, you can see many people reporting about practical limitations regarding the use of USB 1.1"

Here you are comparing apples and oranges. The topic as not about capture "devices" but about external hdd. Captue device issues were not caused by the I/O method but the implementation

I guess I am also one of the gifted ones, as I use a usb capture device, capture to a usb hdd and burn with a external usb burner. Granted I only use 4mb/s bitrate for most things

[Cornucopia]

SatStorm, you mentioned USB 1.1 (at 12Mbps) would work for DVD rates. True, however, most peoples cameras would be DV (even if they had USB out ports). DV rates are 25Mbps. While DV doesn't truly "capture" like analog, a DV tape still plays back in real-time and keeps on rolling, whether the bits copied correctly or not. (Depending upon the software-I can conceive of some apps communicating with the cam and telling it to back up when a bit didn't copy).
But certainly, as long as the drive is fast enough (most are these days), and there is little OS overhead, USB2 or Firewire (any) should give you flawless captures/transfers.

Scott

>>>>>>>>>>
edit:

If you're talking about analog sources with USB capture cards, then it depends on what codec the USB device is doing the conversion, and what the expected bitrate would be. Something like HuffYUV would be WAY too much for it

More on topic with the original question:
External HD's are fine as long as they have a CONSTANTLY sustainable pipeline that support the required bitrate for your codec. Most USB2 and Firewires have no trouble here, ESPECIALLY if you connect it to it's own dedicated port card.

***DO NOT use a HUB!!!
I've known many people burned by the polling of the hub. It can screw up even 1x CDR burns and Digital Still cam xfers.

[SatStorm]

Let it clearify more:

DV 720 x 576 with a USB 1.1 = I can't do it without frame drops. ATA 133 HD, AMD 2600 CPU, nforce 2 mobo.

Mpeg 2 hardware capture with USB 1.1 = I never succeed more than 6000kb/s for 720 x 576
Maybe others do, not me

Avi analogue capture (Huffyuv) with a USB 1.1 capture device = I have framedrops
The same with picvideo ( 18 ) is flawless (if not other devices are connected on the USB 1.1 ports)

Avi analogue capture (PicVideo 19) with a USB 1.1 capture device + realtime convertion to mpeg 2 with mainconcept = many framedrops

When I do the same with usB 2 devices, I don't have any issues.
Am I now more clear?

[Capmaster]

Satstorm,
As I said, if you use the proper USB cable you can achieve full transfer speeds on USB1.1. But I suppose having to use an active cable could be seen as a limitation.

USB2 does away with the concern, and since all new equipment is USB2 and not 1.1, the point is moot and we shouldn't debate it anymore here.

And no, I'm not "gifted", merely tenacious.

An "oft-quoted fallacy" means it's "an old wive's tale", a common misconception, an urban legend, an exaggeration, etc. Capiche?

[SatStorm]

An exaggeration, right...
I know this word.
Thank you

[buttsy00]

Can someone please explain to me how external firewire/usb2 hard drives work?

Does your PC just recognise it as another hardrive and assign it a letter eg. c:\ or D:\???

It I capture video via firewire directly to the firewire hard drive can I then edit the video in any editing program directly from the firewire hard drive?

Any help would be appreciated!

[ZAPPER]

Keep searching around here. there is a thread that talks a little more about external hard drives. Yes your cam can hook straight to an external drive for capture(actually file transfer but I think this is splitting hairs) and then your pc will treat it as another hard drive and not care if it is internal or external it will give it a name like E or F or whatever. When you go to edit it you just enter the file path or source or whatever you want to call it in the spot provided by your editing software and away you go. (I suck at searching, too many distractions, If I happen to come across any more info I will let you know)