JVC DR-M10SL vs. Sony RDR-GX300

[piano632]

I am considering buying a second DVD recorder. I already have one of the Pioneer/Sharp persuasion which is good for off-the-air recording, but not the greatest for copying from tape. What I really need is one that is especially good at cleaning up analog chroma noise BEFORE it is recorded to DVD. Many recorders only clean up on the output which is not what I want (the one I have already does that much).

The only 2 recorders that seem to fit the bill are the JVC DR-M10SL and Sony RDR-GX300. Having not seen either of these recorders in action, can anyone give opinions on how well each of these machines cleans up analog tape noise? And do they allow you to adjust color, contrast, etc. before recording?

Also what options do these 2 machines have in the way of audio bitrates. Are they all stuck with PCM on the highest quality setting and do they allow you to adjust bitrate for AC3?

[gshelley61]

I use the JVC and am very happy with it. It does a pretty good job of suppressing video noise prior to encoding (one of the reasons I stopped using my Panasonic E50).

You can choose AC3 or LPCM in XP mode. All other modes are AC3. Audio bitrates are fixed, MPEG2 video encoding is VBR. The unit does not have adjustable input color, contrast, or brightness controls. I use hardware video processors for that when necessary (examples of these types of devices are Sima SCC, Elite Video BVP-4, Vidicraft Proc Amp and Detailer, Hotronic TBC/Frame Synch, etc.)

Another very important aspect is that you should use a high quality S-VHS VCR for VHS playback and capture... the JVC units with the 4MB "DigiPure" TBC/DNR processing filters produce the best image quality in consumer machines (HR-S9600, 9800, 9911).

[piano632]

Thanks, I already have a JVC HR-S9600U and yes, the TBC/DNR combination does do an excellent job with VHS/S-VHS tapes. However, my problem is that the majority of tapes I have are on Betamax tapes and there are no Betamax machines with TBC/DNR built in. The Betamax I do have is the flagship model Sony SL-HF2100 which is the only North American Betamax with s-video in/out (not counting ED-Beta). I don't regret recording most of my tapes on the SL-HF2100 for it is an outstanding machine capable of even topping S-VHS in overall picture quality (assuming one can remove the chroma noise, that is). I can clearly see the noise in the deep reds and blues and I hope something like the JVC DR-M10SL or Sony RDR-GX300 would be able to correct this.

[lordsmurf]

What you see are CHROMA ERRORS. That red/blue mess on tapes. The JVC LSI chips are really the ONLY chipset that fixes this at encode, and it does it well.

[Frobozz]

I apologize if describing a different brand from the two you are considering is off topic.

Although you've already ruled out Pioneer because of your existing model, the Pioneer DVR310S and 320S have individual settings for each input to adjust chroma, hue, IRE, black level, white level, detail, vnr and 3-D Y/C. It has three presets of these settings and allows three more custom sets. You're able the preview the effects as they are adjusted. It seems to me this does what you are wanting with regard to cleaning the input signal.

I have the DVR510H-S and found it easy and useful to create custom input settings with some source video.

I just read lordsmurf's post about the JVC chipset and I have no experience to suggest that the Pioneer is able to perform as well or better than the JVC.

[lordsmurf]

Aren't those PIONEER options just for playback?

[Frobozz]

The Pioneer has a different set of options for playback. The ones I mentioned are for input. You also can choose to increase the audio signal by 3 or 6 decibels for recording and have different settings for each input.

[tommyoz]

The Pioneer has a different set of options for playback. The ones I mentioned are for input. You also can choose to increase the audio signal by 3 or 6 decibels for recording and have different settings for each input.

I can confirm this. I just picked up the DVR310S (price reduction @ BJ's) and found the video and audio input settings to be pretty neat. I haven't had time to really play with them yet.

The Sony RDR-GX300 only does AC3 with no adjustments. This unit does have video adjustments for contrast, brightness, color, hue & noise reduction. My opinion is not from an expert stand point but I like the quality from this unit.

[gshelley61]

Could you clarify the video input adjustments in more detail for the Pioneer? Just curious...

[tommyoz]

gshelley61,

You can adjust the following video input settings on the Pioneer DVD310s:

3-d y/c - adjusts the brightness/color seperation
VNR - noise reduction
Detail - adjusts how sharp edges appear
White AGC - auto white level adjust (on for auto)
White Level - adjusts the intensity of white
Black Level - adjusts the intensity of black
Black Setup - corrects the standard reference black level
Hue - overall balance between red and green
Chroma Level - adjust how rich the colors appear

When using DV input, only VNR and Detail can be adjusted. When White AGC is on (auto), the white level setting can't be adjusted. You can also store these settings. Up to 6 presets are available.

[gshelley61]

Thanks. Sounds interesting... I may have to check one out. How much was it at BJ's?

[tommyoz]

I picked one up for $249.00. It was the only one they had at the time. It was a clearance price. I actually went there tonight for something else and noticed another one for $209.00 but was the display model.

[lordsmurf]

Unfortunately, I doubt the PIONEER has the ability to remove chroma noise. None of the ones I tested in the past had that ability.

[gshelley61]

I suppose the correction adjustments in the Pioneer are totally digital (post-sampling), not analog like most hardware processors. Still, if they work OK that is pretty convenient and definitely a good feature. I wonder if the built in picture controls in the Pioneer are very mild in adjustment range, or offer the kind of correction ability possible in the hardware processors I've been testing...

[lordsmurf]

I remember the SONY units were almost unnoticeable in process controls.

[gshelley61]

Right... if that is the case, then they wouldn't do much good for sources that really need some help. I can't imagine they would be too strong because it would be real easy for a consumer to overdo the settings and blow through standard luma, chroma and black level limits (and screwing up the output stability).

[Frobozz]

Yes, the Pioneer is just a consumer-level recorder and the adjustment range is slight. Does it make sense to start a new thread on this topic? I'm feeling a little badly that the JVC vs Sony topic got hijacked by me when I posted the Pioneer's features.

[lordsmurf]

Sony to Pioneer is anecdotal. You're fine.

[Marvingj]

Looks like the Pioneer 310 has alot of neat features. I will have to check this out at Fry's. If you guys kept posting this kind of stuff, I'm going to have to sleep there too. Great Post!!

[Frobozz]

Just a caution when buying Pioneer products. Pioneer only honors its warranty when the item is purchased from an authorized Pioneer dealer. Be sure that Fry's is an authorized Pioneer dealer or else that it offers its own warranty coverage in lieu of Pioneer's.

[lordsmurf]

Just a caution when buying Pioneer products. Pioneer only honors its warranty when the item is purchased from an authorized Pioneer dealer. Be sure that Fry's is an authorized Pioneer dealer or else that it offers its own warranty coverage in lieu of Pioneer's.

That cannot be true. Such things are against most consumer laws in most states.

[Frobozz]

Sad but true. The following are from the Pioneer warranty:

...THIS LIMITED WARRANTY APPLIES TO THE ORIGINAL OR ANY SUBSEQUENT OWNER OF THIS PIONEER PRODUCT DURING THE WARRANTY PERIOD PROVIDED THE PRODUCT WAS PURCHASED FROM AN AUTHORIZED PIONEER DISTRIBUTOR/DEALER IN THE U.S.A. OR CANADA. YOU WILL BE REQUIRED TO PROVIDE A SALES RECEIPT OR OTHER VALID PROOF OF PURCHASE SHOWING THE DATE OF ORIGINAL PURCHASE OR, IF RENTED, YOUR RENTAL CONTRACT SHOWING THE PLACE AND DATE OF FIRST RENTAL...

...WHAT IS NOT COVERED
IF THIS PRODUCT WAS PURCHASED FROM AN UNAUTHORIZED DISTRIBUTOR, THERE ARE NO WARRANTIES, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING THE IMPLIED WARRANTY OF MERCHANTABILITY AND THE IMPLIED WARRANTY OF FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE AND THIS PRODUCT IS SOLD STRICTLY “AS IS� AND “WITH ALL FAULTS"....

Pioneer also points this out on their Dealer Locator page. I brought this up because the Fry's near Portland, Oregon doesn't come up in their dealer locator.

[piano632]

Well, since no one seems to have any good things to say about the Sony, I will have to go with the JVC (as much as I despise JVC for single-handedly killing the Betamax format and foistering upon us the inferior VHS format, and ironically JVC got VHS by digging thru Sony's reject pile). But enough of my ranting...

One more question:
Does the JVC fix chroma noise/errors thru the tuner as well, or just thru the A/V inputs?

I just noticed that G&G Technologies has the JVC DR-MH30 listed for sale at $595. Nothing is mentioned that this is a preorder.

http://www.ggvideo.com/jvc_drmh30.htm

[Marvingj]

I have been with SONY when they sold out the real customer ( not Joe Knuckle head). I have 4 Super Beta unit still active in my arensal. But I will give credit where credit is due. JVC is the best DVD Recorder I personally have seen, After JVC then Neck to Neck Pioneer & Lite-on. Lord smurf I believe shows this on his Website. The JVC I believe does get rid of Noise thru the A/V inputs. Not Sure about the Tuner? I do know that the JVC has a lot of Goodies for the Real Customer.

[tommyoz]

I just noticed that G&G Technologies has the JVC DR-MH30 listed for sale at $595. Nothing is mentioned that this is a preorder.

http://www.ggvideo.com/jvc_drmh30.htm

This is the one I'm waiting for. I've been waiting for it since it's (July) due date. I only purchased the Pioneer because of the price and I do have use for it in another room. I couldn't tell you if the Sony takes care of chroma noise because my sources (VHS) are generaly good and not in bad shape.

[lordsmurf]

One more question:
Does the JVC fix chroma noise/errors thru the tuner as well, or just thru the A/V inputs?

All inputs.