Objective: Create a PC to function as a full-featured PVR with DVD burning capability.
I have a Scientific Atlanta Explorer 2100 as my cable box and recieve Time Warner digital cable in the Minneapolis, MN area.
Basically, I am looking to create a single-purpose device, so it would use my HDTV as its sole video output, ideally using RGB (Y/Pb/Pr) component output. As a bonus, I could see using it as a stereo device as well, ripping all my CDs onto it as well.
Basic plans:
2-3 80 GB+ (probably 100GB) HDs
DVD burner (still deciding on +RW/-RW/-RAM choices)
Tuner card/software
Video out card (ideally combined with tuner card)
Remote control (ideal, not absolutely necessary)
OS: I'm fine with either Linux or Windows, would prefer XP if
using Windows.
The problem is that I cannot seem to find a suitable tuner/capture card. Here are some that I have looked at, and why I believe each is unsuitable:
ATI Radeon-All-In-One
* Doesn't indicate support for digital cable
* Specifies a 125-channel tuner, most channels I want to record are higher than 200 and about 5 channels, including the CBS digital channel, are four digit (CBS=1040).
Hauppauge WinTV-D
* Specifies a 125-channel tuner.
* Support for "digital" seems on broadcast digital via antenna, not digital cable. I am assuming that just plugging my coax from the wall into their antenna jack will not work.
AVerTV from AverMedia (aver.com)
* Doesn't indicate support for digital cable
* Specifies a 181-channel tuner
PixelView PlayTV
* Doesn't indicate support for digital cable
* Specifies a 125-channel tuner.
VisionTek's Xtasy Everything based on Nvidia Personal Cinema
* Doesn't indicate support for digital cable
* BTW: great detailed review: http://www.xbitlabs.com/video/nvidia-cinema/
Compro Personal Cinema (Nvidia Personal Cinema)
* Doesn't indicate support for digital cable
AccessDTV Card
* Encrypts saved video
* Lists 125 channel limit, 69 channel HD tuner limit
* Same issue as Hauppauge card (digital broadcast vs cable)
Asus TV Box
* Doesn't indicate support for digital cable
* No info about tuner, etc.
Matrox Marvel G450 eTV
* Doesn't indicate support for digital cable
* Specifies a 125-channel tuner. (found in review)
Pinnacle PCTV Pro
* Apparently being end-of-lifed
I was left with two cards from Creative that actually gave some positive information:
Creative Labs 3D Blaster Personal Cinema (Nvidia Personal Cinema)
* On Product Requirements page: "Analog or digital cable, satellite, or TV antenna required for viewing or recording television signals" (can thus I assume the other two Nvidia-based units do as well?)
* However, it seems to not be available in the US
* No specification of tuner channel capacity
Creative Labs Video Blaster Digital VCR
* Does claim to support digital cable
* Conflicting reports of quality concern me about this (sounds
like a pretty cheap card)
* No specification of tuner channel capacity
So, here's a question: have I missed some card, or missed a specification about the card in some way? Or, am I just kinda hosed here?
An option, although cumbersome and inelegant would be if the PVR/DVR software could drive an IR beam to control the cable box and would then record from the s-video and stereo audio streams. I don't like this solution because:
(a) One hope would be to have a separate tuner from the television so I could watch something other than what is being recorded (that's at least half the point!). (Although I could get another cable box, but....)
(b) I would think I would get better results overall if the card would do the decoding.
(c) The IR control solution just seems *so* kludgy, and potentially unreliable.
Now, another option is to use the bypass on the digital cable box to get an analog cable signal, but then I won't be able to capture any of the channels that are broadcast in digital (this is independent of HD), and since many of the channels I want to record are channel#>200 (HBO, IFC, Sundance, etc), and most tuner cards only list 125 channel tuner (if they give a range at all), it would seem fruitless. The AVerTV with 181 channel support is a step in the right direction, however, still no HBO, so still no 'Six Feet Under'.
I have read in some industry analysis that the SA E-2100 supports IEEE 1394/Firewire. I could not verify this, and I think they were confused with the SA E-8000, which seems to have 1394, based on other reports. Maybe if I can get an E-8000, I could use 1394 out, although I wouldn't have channel control.
I am also mildly curious if the GemStar GuidePlus used by ATI carries digital cable lineups, particularly since TVGuide Interactive appears to be GemStar's digital cable product.
So. does anyone have any idea?
Although my main sticking point is on this digital cable decoding issue, any other recommendations or personal favorites among other solution components are welcome (tuner/PVR software, DVD burners & software, etc)
+ Reply to Thread
Results 1 to 30 of 36
-
-
Uh...
Doesn't the digital cable box do the digital to analog conversion?
Out here in Colo., that's how it works. You put the co-ax into the digital cable box. Then you either feed your TV through s-video (and set the TV to that input channel), or you feed the TV from the co-ax out on the digital cable box, and have to set your TV for channel 3. The channel changing is all done through the digital cable converter which has its own digital tuner.
So, for your PVR, you would just use any old TV tuner and either send the analog out signal from your digital cable box into the card via an S-video in, or through the old fassioned Co-AX.
Does your digital cable box have some sort of digital video out line? If it is your intention to get perfect digital raw data into that computer and convert it to SVCD, CD, or DVD-R, I think you will have a very difficult time finding any way to do it, as the industry has been working against such an outcome for some time now. -
Thanks for your reply, however, as I mentioned in my post, this will require an IR control to allow the PVR to drive the channel selection, assuming I want unattended recording. This is a less-than-ideal solution.
In terms of what I want, all I want is the same functionality I can get in a Tivo, but with direct digital cable support as well as archiving of content to DVD. I don't really feel I am asking for the world here. -
I believe Mitsui is correct. The channel nos on your cable box have nothing to do with the kinds of channels the tuner card can tune to. You're still thinking like 15 years ago.
AFAIK, you have two options:
You can get the new Replay PVR that has Ethernet output. It will record from your cable boxes Svideo out (if it has one), and encode it into Mpeg2 on it's own. You can connect it to your computer through the Ethernet cable and transfer the mpeg files that way. This would take care of your remote control and TV guide concerns as well.
You can switch to Direct TV and get their all in one TIVO box. This will record the Satellite output w/o converting it into analogue first. Then (with a little Internet research), you can pull the hard drive and connect it to your computer to transfer the Mpeg files.
I have the Radeon and I can tell you that the picture quality is nowhere near TIVO. Also, when you pause TV for more than 90 minutes or so, it takes a while for it to find it's place and begin playing back. same for rewinding. I wish so much that I could get back all the money I spent trying to build my own PVR and get the replay! -
Thanks leebo. I don't think my thinking is 15 years behind. There is a chip that does the cable tuning inside the SA E-2001, and there is no inherent reason a similar chip or chipset could not be built into a tuner card. I mean, the tuner cards have an analog cable tuner, just like most TVs built in the past two decades.
You are correct, I could do the Tivo/ReplayTV thing, either use a built in or aftermarket card for net connectivity (such as TivoNet from 9thTee), and then use a stream extraction utility to record to DVD. This is where I originally started in my thinking. This is a least a little more elegant than dicking around moving a drive back and forth on the Tivo. I am not looking for a new hobby, I am looking to create something that hybridizes a DVD recorder such as those from Panasonic, etc, with a Tivo-like device.
The reason I abandoned it was that if i am going to have to totally hack together a solution (which I consider this alternative), I may as well as just build something from components. That's why I set out on my build-your-own approach. This is totally doable if I want to do analog cable, as I have indicated, and I do know how to kludge together a variety of solutions if I am willing to let the tuner do all the work: I am trying to achieve a particlar result, however.
Just to be clear, I am not looking to deal with pay-per-view or anything of the sort. Just my standard digital cable service, plus premium channels included in my service.
Maybe I should update my question to say: if you haven't actually attempted or succeeded to interface with a digital cable system, or are extremely familiar with a particular manufacturer's products, please don't bother responding, as I have already been researching the general subject for a couple of months.
Also, if you have a suggestion for integrating an IR controller for the cable box with the computer's PVR software, that would at least be some constructive information in terms of a kludgy solution. -
"there is no inherent reason a similar chip or chipset could not be built into a tuner card."
Yes, there is. Greed. Hollywood dosn't wan't you to succeed in what you're attempting. That's exactly the reason. Thats why these tuner cards are only "cable ready" (a 15 year old concept). Old technology dosn't scare Hollywood.
Also, there is a "TIVO" like software that will work with these cards that will allow you to use an IR remote, but since I haven't used it myself, I won't bother to mention it. -
Well, cripes man, with an attitude like that, don't expect any more constructive replies. If you know so much about the ******* topic why bother posting the question BOTH here and at arstechnica? (At least here, we are taking a stab at trying to figure out the situation).
With that said, I'm still not so pissed of as to withhold ideas:
I agree with your underlying premises, which is that it shouldn't be hard for some company to create hardware that would do what you're talking about. I think all I am saying is that such hardware does not likely now exist. I've sure not heard of it.
On the IR thing, though, take a look on sourceforge. I seem to remember there was a some software that you could use to drive an IR transmitter and receiver, which could be programmed by your remote control. Ideally, you would have an IR reciever on the PVR that you activated via a universal remote, and a separate IR transmitter (pointed at the IR reciever on the digital cable box) that would be driven by the software to change the channels. In other words, you would use the remote to tell the PVR to record ch. 212 on digital cable, and the software would (1) adjust the PVR turner card to either line in whatever channel serves as carrier for the digital cable signal; (2) transmit a signal via IR to the digital cable box telling it to switch to ch. 212; and (3) start recording.
That's a super kludge, to be sure, but basd on what you're trying to do, I would venture to say that you're going to have to do some custom coding on this project in any case.
Good luck. I'm out.
[MITSUI_1 gets the hell out of the thread...] -
Leebo, thanks again. So what you are saying is that you believe that other than the set-top box makers, who seem to use proprietary decoder chip sets for the QAM/QPSK modulation/demodulation, there are no other sources for decoding a digital cable signal; and that this is basically because Hollywood/MPAA/etc have struck deal with cable carriers who have struck deal with settop box mfrs to keep the entire loop as closed as possible?
This is certainly possible. This would seem to imply that Tivo and ReplayTV would have the same problem (would need Tivo/RTV downstream of the cable box and box would control channel). Otherwise, Tivo/RTV got access to QAM/QPSK mod/demod chips, and thus a card OEM should be able to do so as well.
On the remote issue. I am aware of several software/card packages which include an IR remote for controlling the PVR functions, it is available standard with about half the cards I listed in my original post. However, what I would require is the card/software to drive an IR beam, acting *as* a remote for the cable box.
Using that, I could set the PVR software to record channel 300 (HBO) at such and so a time. It would then send an IR signal to the cable box to switch to channel 300 and begin recording off the S-video, etc, input.
Tivo, and I assume Replay, have little devices like this. In addition, the SA E-2001 cable box I have can do things in reverse: send an IR signal to a VCR, etc to record at a particular time, aftering changing the channel. Problem with this approach is that now I have the settop box driving the bus, and I have to setting my recording preferences and actions using its (IMHO) extremely poor interface.
What I want to do is have web-based access to the PCPVR so I can set it to record from my office, from another location, or, at least from my computer at home. I am happy to code up the web interface side of things, but I need a HW/SW configuration that has the PC in control of the process. -
This could be a possible (but expensive) solution.
http://www.dvnation.com/hs1.html
http://www.avland.co.uk/panasonic/dmrhs1/
http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/computer/storage/dvdram/new/press/pr_102501b.htm
It seems possible to edit the video (cut commercials) before burning.
uteotw -
First, my apologies if I came off as snippy. I am simply saying that I have already turned over a lot of rocks prior to posting, as I didn't want to waste anyone's time asking "Tell me how to build a PC-based PVR, please," when there is already a ton written on the general subject. Thus, I am really looking for responses that don't reference what I have already included in my question.
MITSUI_1, the approach you outline is exactly what it seems I need to do, assuming there are no decoder solutions (which it appears), and if no vendor's capture card/SW has a built-in IR controller (which would not seem to be a bad idea, with something like 6.5MM+ digital cable boxes deployed).
I agree, this is super-kludgy, but I can keep some of the setup visually obscured anyway. Of course, I was hoping to avoid the custom programming thing, but it sounds like the IR driver from sourceforge may help. The two that appear to fit the bill are:
Windows: http://ireye.sourceforge.net/
Linux: http://www.lirc.org/
I also went looking for IR transceivers (although a transmitter alone would work for my purposes, the receiver would be helpful for getting the right codes from the cable box remote). There are many recipes for building ones, but I did find one commercial unit. Anyone have ideas on others?
Unit: http://www.nirvis.com/index.html (Spendy $249. oh well).
SHS: Thanks for the lead on Actisys. All their products appear to be IrDA specific. Are you aware of drivers for direct control of IR signals through these devices.
Thanks for the pointers so far. -
Thanks, uteotw. The solutions you mention will work, but I believe will still all require the cable box to be upstream and controlling the channel selection. And, given their expense, it would probably be cheaper and easier (I imagine the DVD burning interface will be more robust on a PC), to simply do the Tivo/TivoNet back to my PC with DVD burner.
-
Well barry_johnson I don't know I been try to get something like this for my WinTV-PVR and DirecTV box but only SnapStream it support.
-
Thanks SHS. For those curious about the product mentioned, here's the link.
http://www.snapstream.com/products/irblaster/actisys.htm
Are you generally happy with SnapStream? -
I don't use SnapStream I have Hardware MPEG2 encode so I can make VCD, SVCD soon I be making DVD disk soon I buy DVD burner.
Mine only need to be hook like this
http://www.snapstream.com/products/irblaster/rca-cable-diagram.htm
But Hauppauge need build add-on plugin for WinTV2000 in order to make use of it some gose IR Tuning Interface, Serial Tuner or what ever the case maybe. -
barry, thanks for all the info. I'd like to read more on this subjexct.
btw,
"would seem to imply that Tivo and ReplayTV would have the same problem (would need Tivo/RTV downstream of the cable box and box would control channel)."
Replay does have problems with Hollywood right now. they're being sued over their new PVR with Ethernet. -
Another tuner/recorder product worth a look would seem to be ShowShifter (http://www.showshifter.com/). They seem to be UK-based, however, it would seem that it would likely support the key functions I would need.
It has a couple of nifty features including a plug-in for IR control as well as a freeware webserver app to allow you to set record times and channels remotely.
Also, http://www.redrat.co.uk/ has another IR transceiver, although the reciever portion is not very sensitive. However, it appears to be very well designed for learning IR codes needed to drive 3rd party devices.
I'd like to thank everyone who has forced me to look in some different directions. -
Thanks, XJan87. I have seen reference to this, but very limited clear information. On a related note, a German company *might* have something similar as well.
http://www.technotrend.de/english/products/pcproducts2-1.html
http://www.technotrend.de/english/products/pcproducts2-2.html
Based on research triggered by this, I am almost certain the Hauppauge, TechnoTrend or Siemens cards would all work well for me if I lived in Germany, which seems like an extreme solution to my problem. ;-> I cannot find any discussion of these systems in the US. My concern is that the access controls that are supported (for premium channels like HBO) would vary substantially, and there seems to be limited information about them.
Other than that, all these cards mention all the right sort of items that would make me expect they coud do the decoding.
Anyone with US experience with this kind of kit? -
A source for DVB standards info:
http://www.dvb.org/
Somewhere lurking in there may be some information that helps. Still digging. -
The solution to your 'problem' is easy!
Just buy one of those new dvd recorders, don't have a crystal ball so cannot advise which one to get (remember vhs/betamax), and bobs's your parent's sibling! Just remove vcr, replace with dvd recorder -done.
Later in your post you added the specification of being able to remotely program the 'recorder' from work. Simple - get the product (or sthers like them) from redrat uk - i believe the site has links to 3rd party software developers.
The reason you cant buy the products that we all know are easily technically feasible is not down to some hollywood/manufacturerer conspiracy but simply down to commerce. We computer/video geek types represent only a very miniscule fraction of the global market for these types of product. What most people want to do is have a device that you plug in, press as few buttons as posible and will record programs for you. Now a lot of these same people have dvd players they would like to record to that format too, hence the already existing dvd recorder!
I have a modest income - so i am forced to use a 'kludgy' soution to the same problem that you have. I have the computer upstairs, tv downstairs connected by a multitude of cables. The signal from my digital cable box (rgb scart) goes to rgb to s-video converter, upstairs to pinnacle pctv RAVE to be captured bu vdub controlled by vdubstart. The picture comes down via a scan converter, all this controlled via a logitech cordless desktop (radio not ir - very good range!!!).
Work in progress - to get cheap 5.1 amp and speakers to connect to my audigy soundcard(can be cheap cause all the decoding is done in pc).
I you want 'un-kludgy' solutions just go with the masses and be ignorant/happy with what is sold to you. If you want to be an av/computer inetrfacing pioneer then a little kludgyness is to be expected quite franklly. CELEBRATE THE KLUDGYNESS!!!! -
P.S.
How do you connect your cable box to your vcr/tv now?
I think you will find that your tv/vcr doesn't tune upto these channel nos you mention! I bet your vcr/tv is set to recieve signals via 'a/v' input type thing.
If you can't understand the difference between terestrial channel nos and digital cable/sat ones then i suggest you get a dvd recorder. -
Thanks for your assistance, such as it is, droolian01, however, your recommendation seems to come more from the psychology department that the engineering department.
First, in answer to your P.S. question, my VCR solution is, of course, as your describe, nor would I expect any more from my VCR.
Second, "If you can't understand the difference between terestrial channel nos and digital cable/sat ones then i suggest you get a dvd recorder" Whatever. I do understand the difference, in case you couldn't pick that up from my prior posts in this thread. There is no need to attempt to insult me simply because I would like to create a superior solution, to the extent that I can get my hands on the parts.
Now, having driven Triumphs, MGs and Jaguars at different points over time, I understand that high quality engineering has never been a strong suit for the British, however, I guess I am looking for something closer to Bosch than Lucas, if you know what I mean. -
OK, re-read your post and possibly my sarcasm was a little strong.
Look at this:-http://www.b2c2inc.com/products/pc-products.html
This is the sort of thing you maybe after, and ther are two things which would put me off trying it: a) bound to be very expensive, even if they will sell you just one, b) sod knows how to get the descrambling aspect of it to work.
If you ever do use something like this and get it working, write a how to guide for us to use.
Good luck. -
Thanks, droolian01, the B2C2 stuff looks like the TechnoTrend, et al., cards. I think you are exactly right about how to get the decoding stuff to work, especially for me in the U.S. The European market is much better developed in this space. Not surprising, the US often lags in product design in all kinds of ways.
Believe me, if I can get this working, I will make my findings available.
Thanks, again. -
droolian01,
no offence, but you're more than a bit naive about Hollywood and the power it yelds over the electronics industry.
I guess thats a topic for the mis thread though. -
Hi,
The Creative DVR card is by far the best in this class for usability as a DVR system. IE: From the Remote control while sitting across the room.
It works well with the AT&T Digital Cable once you get the settings right, it's not entirely obvious how to do it as running an external cable box isn't a 'Supported Feature' but it's there and does work.
The Biggest drawback about the card it that they have set it up to record in non-standard Mpeg formats So it's rather hard to easily create a DVD or an SVCD. You can easily create an XSVCD but cutting the commercials is rather tricky.
I use it hooked up to my 32" TV every day for months and it's a champ.
It's amazing the amount of video you can store in 120gb drive.
Actually, since the box is a PC-TV, I've taken to just converting the exported Mpeg to Divx. The resulting quality is amazing really, the only downside is you need a PC to play them (for now).
I've personally tried over half of the bunch you listed a the top and they all SUCK very badly for use as a front-room appliance.
The card is able to do any type of recording you need, but they will not open up the drivers.
THAT IS BECAUSE OF FEAR OF LAWYERS and The MPAA and Hollywood.
Soon they will change the law and watch the proliferation of wonderful products that will come out.
EVERYBODY wants to do this, not just propeller heads.
I've been asked about this subject at work, Church, the Market, the Electronics Store. Everywhere!
So many people want to move off of VHS all the old movies they have before they turn to dust, and it's all happening now to everything that was created in the 80's.
Just My 2cents.
Steve. -
OK, here is my nickel worth on this subject.
There are cards to do what you want to do. I just can't remember who or where. I have seen them while sorting through hundreds of links from google searches revolving around the keywords of "HDTV". More than that, I can't remember. There is also another problem. This one lies with the cable company. These cards do not yet have a good way for the cable company to authorise you viewing of a particular channel. So they are not currently supported in most areas.
The DVB standard is the one you want for digital cable, and it will (should) let you get the HDTV cable channels. I have not seen a combined HDTV ATSC (broadcast) and DVB (cable, satellite) card yet.
You could always make one with a capture card and the cable box, but that is a kluge. And as a kluge should be used as a last resort. And as a last resort, consider an HDTV card for broadcast reception. I should hopefully have a "guide" for the one I just put together, sometime this weekend. Quick info:
Via Epia M9000 main board
small case
hard drive
myHD ATSC tuner card
win2000/maybe XP soon
About $600.00 USD
Still need to test a few things, and take a few pictures before putting my stamp of approval on it. Your mileage may very.Hope is the trap the world sets for you every night when you go to sleep and the only reason you have to get up in the morning is the hope that this day, things will get better... But they never do, do they? -
barry_johnson I have 2nd option for you
Hauppauge WinTV-PVR 250/350 or ProVideo PV256C/T
Then all need is SageTV and a Actisys IR200L or Evation Irman
http://www.freytechnologies.com/
Similar Threads
-
New Media center file .WTV format problem with Silicon Dust Cable Card PVR
By torrentlord in forum DVB / IPTVReplies: 3Last Post: 18th Sep 2011, 00:08 -
Seeking under $100 (USD) Video Card Recommendations
By sum_guy in forum ComputerReplies: 19Last Post: 28th May 2010, 18:59 -
graphics card supports dual ICC profiles
By rikit in forum ComputerReplies: 0Last Post: 29th May 2009, 22:28 -
building a HD PVR from Scratch ... want opinions.
By CurtisM in forum DVB / IPTVReplies: 7Last Post: 3rd May 2009, 23:40 -
Need help selecting a standalone DVR/PVR system for digital cable tv
By semmel in forum DVD & Blu-ray RecordersReplies: 5Last Post: 1st Apr 2009, 17:29