Do I need to S-VHS VCR?

[spiffy]

Hi everyone,

I have a big bunch of old VHS tapes I'd like to convert eventually. But I just noticed that it's getting nearly impossible to find S-VHS VCRs in my local stores. In fact, looks like only JVC (and maybe a couple other brands only) are still making this kind of VCRs. I've read that S-VHS output will always look better than regular composite connections; but if I can't find S-VHS VCRs, can I still get good results using my regular Sony 4 head VCRs, or should I really try to hunt down one of these S-VHS units instead?

If so, what kind of features should I be looking for besides that all-important super video connector? For example, since I won't be using the VCR for editing, I can't imagine needing more than 4 heads in order to produce the best image quality possible (therefore, I don't think I need those high-end models...)

Any ideas/suggestions will be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!

Spiffy

[Perro Grande]

An SVHS deck will not necessarily help the tapes if they were recorded in regular VHS mode. An SVHS deck *may* have additional circuitry and features (timebase correction, video stabilization, etc) that a regular deck might not have. However, you might not get any substantially better performance than with your existing 4-head deck. The weak link in this case is the format of the original tapes.

[WuphonsReach]

There are numerous S-VHS decks available... I saw half a dozen when I was looking online last week. Average price was $150-$200.

Try Crutchfield or Amazon.

Best is if you recorded using S-VHS in the first place... (naturally).

[johns0]

I've read that S-VHS output will always look better than regular composite connections; but if I can't find S-VHS VCRs, can I still get good results using my regular Sony 4 head VCRs, or should I really try to hunt down one of these S-VHS units instead?

spiffy,sounds like you are mixing s-video and svhs together.

[MrMungus]

An SVHS deck will not necessarily help the tapes if they were recorded in regular VHS mode. An SVHS deck *may* have additional circuitry and features (timebase correction, video stabilization, etc) that a regular deck might not have. However, you might not get any substantially better performance than with your existing 4-head deck. The weak link in this case is the format of the original tapes.

Testing has shown me that an s-video connector gives better video for capture (all else being equal).

[spiffy]

spiffy,sounds like you are mixing s-video and svhs together.

I'm not... The only VCR with s-video outputs I've seen are S-VHS decks. That was why I was wondering if I needed to buy a S-VHS in order to get that s-video connector...

Spiffy

[spiffy]

There are numerous S-VHS decks available... I saw half a dozen when I was looking online last week. Average price was $150-$200.

Try Crutchfield or Amazon.

Best is if you recorded using S-VHS in the first place... (naturally).

Do I really need those features of those higher-end models though? It's really the playback through s-video connector that I'm hoping for...

My tapes weren't recorded with S-VHS, but with good Sony Hi-Fi 4 head VCRs and using good tapes in SP mode. I've never used S-VHS before; but CompUSA was selling a low-end JVC model that claimed it could enhance the image qualities of regular VHS tapes. I was hoping something like that, coupled with a s-video output could make the capture quality better than using composite connections alone.

Spiffy

[FulciLives]

There are numerous S-VHS decks available... I saw half a dozen when I was looking online last week. Average price was $150-$200.

Try Crutchfield or Amazon.

Best is if you recorded using S-VHS in the first place... (naturally).

Do I really need those features of those higher-end models though? It's really the playback through s-video connector that I'm hoping for...

My tapes weren't recorded with S-VHS, but with good Sony Hi-Fi 4 head VCRs and using good tapes in SP mode. I've never used S-VHS before; but CompUSA was selling a low-end JVC model that claimed it could enhance the image qualities of regular VHS tapes. I was hoping something like that, coupled with a s-video output could make the capture quality better than using composite connections alone.

Spiffy

As far as I am concerned you will gain nothing playing back VHS on a S-VHS just to use the S-Video connector.

It's pointless.

HOWEVER ... as already mentioned ... if you get a S-VHS that has a built-in TBC and all the other goodies (such as the JVC HR-S9911U or the JVC SR-V10U) then YES it is worth getting such a S-VHS VCR for playing back VHS videos.

But if you aren't going to get one of those two JVC models (or another S-VHS VCR with similiar features) then there is no point in getting a base model S-VHS for playback of VHS recordings.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[Nelson37]

Comparing output from nearly-new but cheap VCR, and a basic SVHS unit, (JVC S-3911U), The SVHS unit gave significantly better playback. Whether the improvement was specific to SVHS or just the difference between a crappy VCR and a fairly good one is difficult to determine. This unit has no TBC and only basic correction features, which though they do reduce stutter on bad tapes it seems to cause major frame droppage. This was the first, and only, SVHS unit I have seen on the shelf in my area.

I guess if you already have a decent unit and don't have the cash to spend for a high-end one with TBC, it may not be justified. However, if you are looking to replace your current unit, even a basic SVHS player is comparable in price to a standard one and adds S-Video as a bonus.

[MrMungus]

Do I really need those features of those higher-end models though? It's really the playback through s-video connector that I'm hoping for...

My tapes weren't recorded with S-VHS, but with good Sony Hi-Fi 4 head VCRs and using good tapes in SP mode. I've never used S-VHS before; but CompUSA was selling a low-end JVC model that claimed it could enhance the image qualities of regular VHS tapes. I was hoping something like that, coupled with a s-video output could make the capture quality better than using composite connections alone.

Spiffy

Here's the thing: You might need the features and you might not. I have two JVC SVHS decks and after figuring out the best ways (for me) to do things, I'm now doing a lot of conversions and finding out that some of the features are good to have. For example, on some tapes using the built-in TBC fixes some things and the video stabilizer fixes others (they can't be selected simultaneously).

What I would do I if I were you is get the cheapest deck you can get and run some tapes through them and see how they look. If they don't look good on the cheap deck, go up a step to the next best and so on. Just make sure you can return them (I've *heard* CompUSA has a bad return policy while I've found that Fry's has a very good 30 day no questions asked return policy). In fact, what you might want to do if you can afford it is get both decks and just return the one you don't want to keep.

[racerxnet]

Svideo out seperates the Y/C signal for better picture output. If composite is Ok for you then go for it. The benefits are measurable with Svideo connections.

[FulciLives]

Svideo out seperates the Y/C signal for better picture output. If composite is Ok for you then go for it. The benefits are measurable with Svideo connections.

But this is not taking into account the fact that VHS video is composite to begin with plus the comb filter in the capture device may be worse, as good, or better than that in the VCR.

For instance many LD players have S-Video outputs but compared to today's video equipment they have a poor Y/C comb filter and since LD is really composite video you can actually get better quality using the composite outs since most capture devices have a better Y/C comb filter.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[davideck]

Actually, the Luminance and Chrominance components are recorded as separate signals in the VHS and SVHS formats. Any composite input is separated into Luminance and Chrominance components prior to recording. An S-Video output connection allows these two components to remain separate during playback and capture. The composite output combines them together, forcing the capture card to separate them again. The process of separation creates artifacts, so the S-Video output is definitely benificial.

[dwiesel]

Ok, now we have different opinions regarding S-Video connections yielding better capture qulity for standard VHS.

I went looking for an S-VHS VCR last week, and was told the same thing by the retailer...my tapes are all standard VHS, so using S-video has no benefit. Now I'm hearing from some of you guys that it can give a better image on standard VHS if I use a player with S-Video (barring TBC).

And, I just bought a new LD player last week on eBay just for it's S-Video output...so this could actually give a worse capture than composite? And it makes me wonder, do certain LD players have better S-Video than others? Help!

[FulciLives]

... And, I just bought a new LD player last week on eBay just for it's S-Video output...so this could actually give a worse capture than composite? And it makes me wonder, do certain LD players have better S-Video than others? Help!

Most LD players, being older technology, have a worse Y/C comb filter than that found in a modern TV or capture device. So chances are you will get better quality using the composite outputs.

The only real way to find out is to test it. Do a sample capture of the same clip once with composite hooked up and again with S-Video and see if you can tell which one looks better.

As for what user davideck said ... well it goes against what I have read about video in general especially the LD thing. So I am suspect of his/her comments.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[dwiesel]

Thanks...and oh yeah, I'll be doing back-to-back tests/comparisons... seems it's all I do anymore...can't wait to achieve the ultimate MPG.

[davideck]

As for what user davideck said ... well it goes against what I have read about video in general especially the LD thing. So I am suspect of his/her comments.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

I believe that LD is a composite recording format, but I am not sure.

I am sure that VHS, SVHS, and Beta are "color under" recording formats, maintaining separate luminance and chrominance channels. One source that you might consult is the "Television Engineering Handbook" by Blair Benson et al. McGraw Hill

[davideck]

FulciLives - here is a good reference...

http://www.broadcastbuyersguide.com/display.php?E=2.4

or just do a search on "color under"

[FulciLives]

FulciLives - here is a good reference...

http://www.broadcastbuyersguide.com/display.php?E=2.4

or just do a search on "color under"

I don't see where it mentions VHS as a Y/C "color under" format. It does say that for S-VHS and Hi8 though.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[davideck]

FulciLives - here is a good reference...

http://www.broadcastbuyersguide.com/display.php?E=2.4

or just do a search on "color under"

I don't see where it mentions VHS as a Y/C "color under" format. It does say that for S-VHS and Hi8 though.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

Perhaps this reference will convince you...

http://www.r-vcr.com/~television/TV/under.htm

[racerxnet]

Since the interleaving principle is used for the mulitplex transmissions of the chrominance signal , it cannot be recorded with the FM luminance signal . A solution has been to down convert the chrominance signal sub carrier, which is at 3.85 MHz in an NTSC TV signal, to a frequency below the the FM sideband. For VHS it is approximately 629 khz. The frequency modulated luminance signal follows one path and the down converted chrominance signal follows another. Prior to being recorded these siganls are mixed together, but are still seperate in terms of frequency prior to being recorded.

So yes, VHS is recorded with the color under method. And yes, the seperation of the Y/C signal will provide the better picture when less signal seperation is required for reproduction. This is in regards to a respectable source to start with.

[lordsmurf]

Don't "need" one, but they always help.

Only thing we "need" is water every few days, food a few times per month, and a steady supply of oxygen. All this video stuff is extraneous.

[vhelp]

Good morning guys.

All this video stuff is extraneous.

But yet, still interesting :P


I've ben followin this thread for a while now. Even repeated
discussions are interesting - you never know what kind of screw
will get thrown in sometimes :P

Maybe this will turn into a "VHS and LD - RCA or S-Video ?" thread

Facts:
* RCA = Composite signal (or connector)
* S-Video = Y/C signal (Lum/Chrom are separated)
* SVHS or S-VHS = S-Video output (sometimes in/out) vcr recorder/player

@ davideck,

I'm just curious about something. As others here have indicated,
(w/ respect to LD players) I'm still waiting on my Pioneer CVD-V2600
LD player to arrive (it was Rescheduled for some reason - WFT)
I also have a 2nd LD model (I'll keep a surprise for now :P :P :P ) which
will prob make it's way to me sooner

Hay, I have an idea, someone as BJ_M to use his Betamax to record some
materias (even from DVD sources) and then see what results come of it.

Oh, yes.. now, getting back to my question...

I was wondering, if it's true what you say in VCRs, that the Y/C signal
IS split and recorded to tape, then:

A) - it doesn't matter then, on the (RCA vs. S-VIDEO) that the end result
.....will be that if the use selects to capture in RCA mode, then that will
.....be the user's end quality, but is user select to capture w/ S-Video,
.....then the quality will be that much better, becuase as you stated earlier,
.....the Y/C DO get separated and, the end resul is recorded to tape :P
.....So, back to RCA vs S-Video :P (obviously, then a VCR w/ S-Video is THE
.....WAY TO GO And, I van vouch for that w/ my three VCRs, (two are
.....RCA, and one is SVHS [s-video in/out]) and in my OP, the SVHS vcr DOES
.....produce better quality
.
.
.....However, there is one thing that remains a mystery w/ this respect in
.....RCA vs. S-Video. And, that is the given type of source. What I'm on
.....about, is what's actually recorded on Tapes and HOW. Ok, lets forget
.....about those tapes that WE record to, as home owners. What about those
.....tapes that are "commercially" recorded to tapes w/ those machines, or
.....other processes that record to tapes, things like commerical movies ??
.....Are they done in RCA format, or S-Video format ??
.....And, if recorded in RCA format, then s-video is not going to help us
.....because its only going to make thing worse w/ the separation and re-
.....combining of the signal, etc etc etc.
.....But, if they record those commercial movies onto tape in S-Video format,
.....then we're back to square one, RCA vs. S-Video, for obvious reasons,
.....and if you ask me, then of course the end result that will win will be
.....the S-Video one, again for obvious reasons :P
.....But, until then, we need to know for sure, WHICH method those the studios
.....use to record to tape, RCA or S-Video ?? that is the question

B) - now getting to it ... I'm curious, because some are saying that on
.....the LD disks, the information is recorded (supposively) in RCA format,
.....in analog form (as vcr recorded tapes are) and I was wondering, then, if
.....LD is recorded as RCA, and you have an LD player w/ ONLY and RCA connector
.....then, the users end result in quality can only be decitated by their end
.....produce's features/capabilites (ie, their capture and driver) Plus, add
.....the LD player's abilities to reproduce the final outpu quality too :P
.
.
.....BUT, if the LD player is equipted w/ RCA and S-Video, then given the LD's
.....abilities/quality features, to reproduce each sources signal type output,
.....the final result would be that if push came to shuv, RCA vs. S-Video, the
.....RCA would win ?? ..because the source is actually RCA (and NOT s-video) ??
.....I am finding this issue w/ LD recorded "data elements" to be confusing to
.....me. I would assume that w/ LD, the output quality would be even better
.....if S-Video was used in the final connections.. forgetting about the crap
.....about 3D Comb Filters and (what's that other filter for LD players ? )
.
.
.....So, given that the sig is pushed in RCA format, then, and one would be
.....led to believe (w/in reason) that the RCA is THE final format quality
.....in its, as prestine quality (if you believe) then, the LD players that
.....are equipted w/ RCA and S-Video, that those w/ S-Video output, and uses
.....them, they are only getting a (key word here, mind you) "simulated"
.....Y/C (or s-video) output reproduction ?? ?? ??
.....And, if that IS so, than, why bother w/ S-Video features on a LD player ??
.....Stil though, I ordered an LD player w/ both connector features :P
.....because in the end, it all depends on what MY eyes sees :P

In my OP, I think that it all boils down to the capture device (DV or Analog)
ability to "do what it's gotta do" (aka, "Y/C" the sig or "combine" the sig)
and result in your final output quality (FOQ) Of course, there are other
factors in volve in the FOQ.

Having the right combo of devices, from mobo/chipset/cpu to drivers to OS to
capture device (DV or Analog) ..will give us a good FOQ !!

-vhelp

[dwiesel]

Referring back to my earlier post, I received my LD player with S-video…since I returned my capture card to soon to get a better one, I can't test how the capture looks --but in just connecting it to the TV, the S-video connection definitely looks different than the composite connection.

Based on the TV image only, to say the S-video connection yields a better image than composite is…well, subjective, and deceiving. I have always preferred the way composite looks over S-video…call me crazy, but I'm sure some of you agree. Let me explain: the composite image is by it's nature "noisier"…this deceptively adds a certain sharpness and "live broadcast" quality that is pleasing to the eye (for me anyway). My opinion changed when a few weeks ago I captured straight from a DVD player using both S-video and composite…the S-video yielded a much better AVI and MPG image.

Back to the LD player and how S-video looks on TV: it looks coincidentally VERY similar to the my final MPG created from a previous composite capture…which leads me to draw the premature but hopefully logical conclusion that the filter/comb effect is occurring in the capture card. I further believe this because I am using an old LD with laser rot speckles…but, the AVI file I captured (I used the Pinnacle AVDV card) was basically speckle-free but still high quality (a very good thing). The interesting test will be to capture through S-video and see how the resulting MPG looks.