How to Archieve DV

[Reality]

Here is a general question:

I have captured DV off of my 1 hour tapes into avi files that are about 13GB each. These files are too large to archieve with my DVD burner as it would take 3 discs for each hour of tape. They are to big to leave on my hard drive as I have about 40 more hours of tape to go.

What is the best way to archieve them so I can use them for editing later on. Should I convert them to mpeg2 files (with muxed sound or not?)? Will the quality be good enough that I can edit them and make a DVD later?

If I convert the raw DV files to DVDs can I use the DVD as a source for editing later? Is that a good way to archieve them? How do you extract the video for editing?

I am really interested in what others are doing. Thanks for any replys.

[AarontheRipper]

I am converting all of my DV tapes to mpeg (DVD) and burning them to DVD. If you don't put more than an hour or so on a disk, you can use a very high bitrate (8-9000) and the quality is excellent. There are plenty of programs that allow you to edit mpeg files in case I want to take several clips from different DVDs in the future to put on one disc.

[Reality]

Aaron

Are you burning them as a data file ie file.mpg or are you authoring them as DVDs? If you are authoring them to DVDs how will you extract the mpeg for editing later?

[The village idiot]

Best way to keep the ability to edit is put them out to some form of tape as data. I suggest something like a DLT, or DAT tape backup device. They are faster than simply using DV tapes and something like DVstream to back things up. But there is a thread about DVstream somewhere in here, and I have a post in that thread so you might find it a little easier.

[ronnylov]

You can split the files to 3 parts and still save them on DVD-R. In my opinion this is the best method to archive them for later editing. The price of 3 good quality DVDD-R discs is about the same as the price of one good 60 minutes DV tape.

[JimJohnD]

Why not just keep the origional tapes? The lifespan of a tape isn't forever but it has had more real life testing than DVDs have, but time will tell. I've been told to just use good tapes, keep them in a sealed case like a Pelican and toss in one of those little "bricks" that absorb humidity to keep them dry. If you want to edit the footage in the future the DV format will always be the best bet. With the price of DV cameras dropping like they are, finding a playback divice in the future shouldn't be a problem.

[Jester700]

With the dual layer DVD burners due out in a few months, you could store 40 minutes per DVD right in DV-AVI. Not great, but maybe doable. At least worth looking into when they actually hit the market.

[sitlet]

if you plan on editing them later, dont convert them to mpg. mpg is a good final format, but is not good at all for editing. dv avi is what you should leave them in if you want to edit them. i would suggest, instead of splitting the files and burning to dvdr, go out and get a 120-200 gb hard drive. with the amount of money you will spend on dvdr's, you can get a large hard drive that will last you a long time.

[BJ_M]

Why not just keep the origional tapes? The lifespan of a tape isn't forever but it has had more real life testing than DVDs have, but time will tell. I've been told to just use good tapes, keep them in a sealed case like a Pelican and toss in one of those little "bricks" that absorb humidity to keep them dry. If you want to edit the footage in the future the DV format will always be the best bet. With the price of DV cameras dropping like they are, finding a playback divice in the future shouldn't be a problem.

sounds like the best plan

[Reality]

Thanks for the replies everyone.

I am looking not only for a backup to the tapes incase anything happens to them but also for quick access so I can edit and assemble a DVD from multiple tapes.

Based on the replies so far I think the best thing for me is to break them down into 3 files and burn the raw DV onto 3 DVDs as data files.

[akbor75]

i have to agree with sitlet.

an hd is a good option:
- it's not expensive
(you will need MANY dvds.)
- it not much work
(it's much work to burn everything to dvd. my dvd burner takes 45 minutes per full dvd.)
- it's fast
(it will take a long time to copy it to hd if you want to edit the files.)

[ronnylov]

But what do you do when your HD has crashed and you don't have a backup? I just bought a 160 GB HD but it was more expensive than 34 DVD-R discs which also can store 160 GB. It is still less expensive to backup on DVD-R or MiniDV tape compared to backup to hard discs. A fast DVD-ROM unit can copy a DVD-R to the HD whitin 10 minutes so it's a little bit faster than transfering from tape. In my experience you are lucky if your hard disc lifetime is more than 4 years. I hope the lifetime of a DVD-R is longer but I don't know for sure. So I also make a backup on miniDV.

I would say you still need to backup even if you store everything on HD. And it's better to store in original DV AVI format than anything compressed if you want to edit it later. Personally I store a backup on both MiniDV tape and DVD-R in case one of them will break.

Earlier I did make backups in mpeg2 format as DVD-Video but it kept me awake on nights thinking if I could have made better quality backups by using different encoder settings. Now I can sleep tight knowing I have backed up in original format without loosing any quality so I can recompress it later with other settings if I need to.

[Craig Tucker]

Once I have recorded a DV tape, I keep it as the master. Even if I have made a DVD from the footage.

[Paul Simmel]

What software do you use to split the files???

[DaBarrister]

Just some thoughts:

1) My Hi-8 tapes from 10 years ago are already going bad - very bad in some cases. I stored them tail-out (not rewound) and the last 5 - 20 minutes or so of every tape has significant dropout.

2) After encoding and burning a finished product, I keep the original tape, but I trash the captured AVIs. I capture and edit as much as I can onto DVD and although I might want to re-edit in the future, off-loading the AVIs onto a bunch of DVDs is just not practical for me (2 hour tape = 7 DVDs). If I feel a great need to re-edit, I'll recapture (however, see #1, above).

3) Splitting files: I let the capture program split it for me. In my case, I'm using Win 98SE, so I'm bound by the 4 gig file size limit (about 17 minutes of uncompressed AVI each).

[BJ_M]

What software do you use to split the files???

you can use virtualdub mod

[Paul Simmel]

BJ_M,

I downloaded VirtualDubMod, and got this error when attempting to open my DV .avi file:

“Couldn’t locate decompressor for format ‘dvsd’ (unknown).
VirtualDub requires a Video for Windows (VFW) compatible codec to decompress video. DirectShow codecs, such as those used by Windows Media Player, are not suitable. Only ‘Direct stream copy’ is available for this video.”

I’m on W2k. What am I missing???

Thanks in advance!

[ronnylov]

BJ_M,

I downloaded VirtualDubMod, and got this error when attempting to open my DV .avi file:

“Couldn’t locate decompressor for format ‘dvsd’ (unknown).
VirtualDub requires a Video for Windows (VFW) compatible codec to decompress video. DirectShow codecs, such as those used by Windows Media Player, are not suitable. Only ‘Direct stream copy’ is available for this video.”

I’m on W2k. What am I missing???

Thanks in advance!

You are missing a DV codec. You can try the Panasonic DV codec which works well with virtualdub.

[holistic]

CAUTION
For compatability issues keep the DV files @ ~ 2Gb.
From memory , I don't believe you can use file sizes on DVD's over this size.

I will check into that for you ..

][

[holistic]

http://www.mdi.com/CompanyInfo/pdf/MDI_UDF_White_Paper.pdf
***** Looks like max file size is 4.29 Gb *****

2^32

[BJ_M]

in iso mode on dvd - max file is 2g , in udf it is larger as you have pointed out

[The village idiot]

Just use Winrar or maybe Winzip, or something like that to break the files into smaller chunks. Make sure to put a copy of the zip utility with the data so that you know you have the correct version to extract the files later.

[triphop]

Heres what I do:

0. Output final product to new, good tape and immediately store.
1. Keep the master tapes - I place the tapes in a ziplock bag in a manilla envelope for each project.
2. Compress the final material to high quality MPEG2 or Divx and archive to DVDR
3. Archive all digital project materials (titles, sounds, animations to DVDR.
4. All project related materials (documentation, tapes, DVDRs) get stored together.

regards,
Trip.

[Reality]

Hadn't thought of winzip or winrar for cutting up files, I will have to try that.

If I archieve mpeg's what sort of data rates should I use and still get a 1 hour 13gb tape down to a burnable 4.7gb? At the default 6000kb/s I find I am getting a file about 3gb. Can I go 1/3 more to 8000 or is it not it not a linear function?

That might be a good option. I forgot all about my SVHS transfers I have to do yet. Its not so bad using 3 discs per tape but 7 is a little much.

How much do tape drives cost?

[DaBarrister]

How much do tape drives cost?

No "tape drive." Too expensive, not big enough. I believe the discussion is to transfer your old tapes to new DV tapes via a DV camcorder using the S-Video or RCA ports. You can do that and lose very little in the way of resolution.

I believe you can fit about 80 minutes of MPEG2 on a DVD at 8000kb/sec, but others may know better than I.

FYI: It's "archive," not "archieve."

[ronnylov]

I'm backing up to MiniDV tapes by using firewire connection from PC to my camcorder (which is DVin enabled).

You can fit one hour on a DVD by using 8000 kbit/s video and uncompressed audio. Then you get a quite nice quality.

[Paul Simmel]

ronnylov,

Thanks for the link. Another question, please? Now that I can load my .avi in VDM, I can't see where in the program I can split this file.

Just use Winrar or maybe Winzip, or something like that to break the files into smaller chunks. Make sure to put a copy of the zip utility with the data so that you know you have the correct version to extract the files later.

How can this be done in WinZip??? I don't see how. My Winzip is several years old...

Thanks

[BJ_M]

ronnylov,

Thanks for the link. Another question, please? Now that I can load my .avi in VDM, I can't see where in the program I can split this file.




Thanks

select "save as" (F7) and in the window that pops up is the option to split files (segement video files) , make sure you set video mode to 'direct stream copy'

[andie41]

If I backup to DV tape, and asuming that years later, the tape remains in good condition, what if I have no hadware available to play the DV tape?

A few years ago I had 2 important Betamax tapes and I decided I had better transfer them before my Beta VCR packed it in - too late. Fortunately I knew someone with a Beta VCR and succeeded in copying my tapes to SVHS.

Recently I decided I had better backup all my old taps - 8mm, Hi-8 and SVHS- some already 20 years old. I bought a DVD writer and planned to put everything onto DVD. However; I read many comments and discussions about the lack of longevity associated with CDR's and DVD's

I assembled and tested various software and was ready to begin capturing. Unfortunately my rather expensive "prosumer" Canon A1 digital would not output a steady image. It needs a new transport motor and all capacitors are mostly dried out - with taxes, close to a $300.00 repair. So I bought a Digital 8 from Ebay, finally received it and was ready to begin my archiving and decided to test the pass through from my "prosumer" Sony SVHS VCR, through the camera. However, the VCR no longer outputs an image - no doubt dried capacitors, at the least. A buddy had his Sony VCR repaired a couple of years earlier and it was around $300.00 to repair.

I remain rather skeptical of any long term method.