VERY BASIC problem with audio sync. Please take a look!

[bek]

I recorded a movie using my DVD recorder, then ripped it to my hard drive. I want to author it, but after I demux (separate the audio and video) the audio is slight out of sync. The sync seems to be consistent, and can be corrected using GoldWave after a VERY tedious trial and error period.

This has happened with both movies I have tried to demux so far. On my PC, the VOBs play fine.

I am using VOBedit to demultiplex. No matter what I use to mux, the audio is still out of sync. I've used both bbmpeg and ULead DVD Workshop to mux and the audio is still out of sync.

The problem must be occuring when I demux! Any idea what I'm doing wrong?

Thanks,
Brian

[willy_annand]

This seems to be coming up alot with stand alone DVD recorders.

There are a couple of threads in the DVD-Lab forum as well.

One theory is that the DVD Recorder purposely records the VOB out of sync and there is a code in the VOB that ofsets the audio so it plays in sync. The theorist says this is how they get around the piracy issue. A built in copy protection scheme....

As for me, I don't know for sure.

[FulciLives]

Try running the VOB files through DVD2AVI which should extract the AC-3 audio along with the delay value.

Or use TMPGEnc DVD Author and try importing the VOB files.

I recently ripped a DVD-R made in a Panny stand alone DVD recorder using DVD Decrypter in IFO MODE and then STREAM PROCESSING to extract one long M2V and one long AC-3 and re-authored it in TMPGEnc DVD Author (including trimming the start and end points) and it seems to be in sync but then again it is an Asian film with REALLY bad Kung-Fu Theatre style dubbing but the sound effects in the Kung-Fu fight scenes appear to be in sync.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[bek]

I'm new to DVD2AVI - it won't seem to let me create an AVI with "No Compression." I don't want to lose any quality, as the source isn't the greatest anyway. What option should I choose?

[FulciLives]

I'm new to DVD2AVI - it won't seem to let me create an AVI with "No Compression." I don't want to lose any quality, as the source isn't the greatest anyway. What option should I choose?

You don't want to create an AVI file. You want to use the option entitled SAVE PROJECT. This will create a D2V project file which is used when you want to re-encode the file. You of course are not going to do THAT but choosing this option will also demux your AUDIO files with a delay value.

In the audio section make sure you set it up as follows:

TRACK NUMBER = NONE
CHANNEL FORMAT = AUTO
DOLBY DIGITAL = DEMUX ALL TRACKS
MPEG AUDIO = DEMUX ALL TRACKS
The other options ... don't touch.

That will demux any and all DD and MP2 (or MPA) audio tracks in the VOB files.

Now go ahead and extract the M2V video from the VOB files as you normally would but in your authoring software use the AUDIO files you demuxed with DVD2AVI and adjust the delay value. If the authoring software doesn't let you adjust the delay value then use AC3 Delay Corrector.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[bek]

I FIXED IT!

This is freaky. I used TMPGEnc Author for the first time in my life (and I can already tell it's not for me), and imported the VOB directly, and there was absolutely no sync problem!

This isn't a permanent fix, as I don't want to use TMPGEnc Author to author my DVDs, but it did allow me AC3 sound with perfect sync!

So there IS hope.

I'm going to keep working on it....

[FulciLives]

Well I am happy to hear that TMPGEnc DVD Author fixed your audio sync problem.

Don't you think that should make it a contender for future use though?

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[willy_annand]

Well I am happy to hear that TMPGEnc DVD Author fixed your audio sync problem.

Don't you think that should make it a contender for future use though?

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

I agree with Bek, TMPG Author is far too limited a program for any creative DVD authoring.

[FulciLives]

Well I am happy to hear that TMPGEnc DVD Author fixed your audio sync problem.

Don't you think that should make it a contender for future use though?

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

I agree with Bek, TMPG Author is far too limited a program for any creative DVD authoring.

Well it may be somewhat limited but with a little creativity you can do some nice enough things with it. Plus it works rather well. Granted my playing around with DVD-Lab has been extremely limited but I had several "issues" with it including lack of audio synch.

So do you want super fancy menu designs or a video that plays proper?

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[willy_annand]

So do you want super fancy menu designs or a video that plays proper?

I am greedy, I want both, that is why I picked DVD-Lab.

I have had only two problems with DVD-Lab.

One project produced "jerky" video and one had no sound. Neither were DVD-Lab's fault.

The jerky video was caused by a faulty PAL to NTSC conversion.

The lack of sound was purely a BeSweet issue, I could never get BeSweet to encode an AC3 file that would play. So I picked up an old copy of Sonic Soft Encode and it worked perfectly.

Once you read the intro and quick tutorial for DVD-Lab, you realise it, unlike all the other Authoring programs out there, does not re-encode your files while compiling.

What you give DVD-Lab is what you get out.

Comparing DVD-Lab to TMPG DVD Author is like
comparing Premiere to Video Wave.

The two are miles apart on ability.

[bek]

So do you want super fancy menu designs or a video that plays proper?
- John "FulciLives" Coleman

Actually, I want both. But you do bring up a good point.

Although, thanks to TMPGEnc's awesome ability to import VOB files directly (saving me a LOT of time), I have added that as a required ability, which knocks out of a ton of the competition! I am also skeptical about DVDLab--too many people are complaining, plus it feels weird to use. My next trial will be with ReelDVD, maybe.

[FulciLives]

So do you want super fancy menu designs or a video that plays proper?

I am greedy, I want both, that is why I picked DVD-Lab.

I have had only two problems with DVD-Lab.

One project produced "jerky" video and one had no sound. Neither were DVD-Lab's fault.

The jerky video was caused by a faulty PAL to NTSC conversion.

The lack of sound was purely a BeSweet issue, I could never get BeSweet to encode an AC3 file that would play. So I picked up an old copy of Sonic Soft Encode and it worked perfectly.

Once you read the intro and quick tutorial for DVD-Lab, you realise it, unlike all the other Authoring programs out there, does not re-encode your files while compiling.

What you give DVD-Lab is what you get out.

Comparing DVD-Lab to TMPG DVD Author is like
comparing Premiere to Video Wave.

The two are miles apart on ability.

Well I created a project from a VHS capture. The source had a perfect 3-2 pattern so I did an IVTC in an AviSynth AVS script which I inputed into TMPGEnc and encoded it as PROGRESSIVE with 3-2 pulldown. I used LPCM WAV audio since this movie was only 75 minutes long giving me the room to use LPCM WAV audio (normally I use AC-3 audio).

The resulting M2V and WAV were out-of-sync with DVD-Lab but not when I authored them with SpruceUP and TMPGEnc DVD Author ... both of those had dead on audio sync as per the original capture file.

I figured the problem was DVD-Lab and my research turned up 2 possible causes.

1.) DVD-Lab has muxing problems especially when using LPCM WAV audio.

2.) DVD-Lab does not like the way TMPGEnc does 3-2 pulldown and instead a work around might be to encode as straight 23.976fps and run the resulting M2V through PULLDOWN.EXE

Either way the problem was with DVD-Lab since 2 other highly regarded authoring programs had ZERO problems.

So as a result I don't use DVD-Lab.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[bek]

If the choice comes down to:

1. Correct audio sync and less work, but plain menus

vs

2. Slightly off audio sync, lots of work, but professional quality menus.


Clearly, I'll have to go with #1, but I can't help but think, especially since another wave of DVD authoring tools are just about out, that we won't have to make this kind of choice.

I am keeping my eye on TMPGEnc Author. It's a quality program. If they add more features to the menu portion, it'll be a real winner.

[willy_annand]

I figured the problem was DVD-Lab and my research turned up 2 possible causes.

1.) DVD-Lab has muxing problems especially when using LPCM WAV audio.

2.) DVD-Lab does not like the way TMPGEnc does 3-2 pulldown and instead a work around might be to encode as straight 23.976fps and run the resulting M2V through PULLDOWN.EXE

Either way the problem was with DVD-Lab since 2 other highly regarded authoring programs had ZERO problems.

This reminds me of a fellow on the DVD-Lab forum, he was attempting to author a DVD and kept saying DVD-Lab was at fault. Turned out he was using video/audio bitrates far too high, TMPGEnc and Spruce Up would quickly re-encode the files so the bitrate was within limits. He just would not get it.

One of the other fellows and I were trying to help this fellow but he would not listen. Mike Kelley had a wonderful quote which I will share here:
-------------------------------------------------
Quote by Mike Kelley from DVD-Lab forum:

Those of us who have been very successful using it (and I count myself in that category, having authored nearly 1000 disks with nary a complaint) either know what we are doing or have been damn lucky (perhaps both :>). But we are also here to help others get successful, and I don't think you'll find that kind of user base elsewhere (I may be mistaken on this, but I have yet to see such a patient and helpful bunch as the people on this forum). I think this and the fact that Oscar is so responsive are the two reasons why using anything other than DVDLab is rather foolish -- forget the fact that it works the way an authoring product should.

So... the back to your question, is "Is DVDLab ready for prime time?" As Bill says, there are those of us who are proof of that. Perhaps the real question should be "Are YOU ready for DVDLab?" If you are not willing to learn and perhaps adapt your workflow to produce files it requires, then the answer might very well be no.
----------------------------------------------------

I guess the breakdown is between casual home users who quickly want to make an average DVD.

And Prosumers like Mike and I who want professsional quality DVDs that our clients will appreciate.

----------------------------------------------------

Goes back to the old question, "why do the majority of the users out there use MS IE when there are so many better browsers out there?
Answer, they are too lazy to learn another system.

Also, if you did not use DVD-Lab v1.3 you were using a beta copy.

[FulciLives]

I figured the problem was DVD-Lab and my research turned up 2 possible causes.

1.) DVD-Lab has muxing problems especially when using LPCM WAV audio.

2.) DVD-Lab does not like the way TMPGEnc does 3-2 pulldown and instead a work around might be to encode as straight 23.976fps and run the resulting M2V through PULLDOWN.EXE

Either way the problem was with DVD-Lab since 2 other highly regarded authoring programs had ZERO problems.

This reminds me of a fellow on the DVD-Lab forum, he was attempting to author a DVD and kept saying DVD-Lab was at fault. Turned out he was using video/audio bitrates far too high, TMPGEnc and Spruce Up would quickly re-encode the files so the bitrate was within limits. He just would not get it.

Sorry but SpruceUP and TMPGEnc DVD Author do not re-encode your video. There are authoring programs that will do that (such as ULEAD MOVIE FACTORY 2 although sometimes it can be prevented) but SpruceUP does not nore does TMPGEnc DVD Author.

It does help if you are properly educated as to what you are saying.

As for all your garbage and rant about how great and kewl and experienced YOU are ... well you have one big ass load of an ego.

I know what I am doing. DVD-Lab has "issues". Admit to it. Sure there may be work arounds but I'm not bending my CORRECT proceedure(s) just to get DVD-Lab to work right.

No one likes someone with an attitude especially when that person is not 100% accurate.

Good day!

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[bek]

Mike Kelley had a wonderful quote which I will share here:
-------------------------------------------------
Quote by Mike Kelley from DVD-Lab forum:

Those of us who have been very successful using it (and I count myself in that category, having authored nearly 1000 disks with nary a complaint) either know what we are doing or have been damn lucky (perhaps both :>). But we are also here to help others get successful, and I don't think you'll find that kind of user base elsewhere (I may be mistaken on this, but I have yet to see such a patient and helpful bunch as the people on this forum). I think this and the fact that Oscar is so responsive are the two reasons why using anything other than DVDLab is rather foolish -- forget the fact that it works the way an authoring product should.

So... the back to your question, is "Is DVDLab ready for prime time?" As Bill says, there are those of us who are proof of that. Perhaps the real question should be "Are YOU ready for DVDLab?" If you are not willing to learn and perhaps adapt your workflow to produce files it requires, then the answer might very well be no.
----------------------------------------------------

I guess the breakdown is between casual home users who quickly want to make an average DVD.

And Prosumers like Mike and I who want professsional quality DVDs that our clients will appreciate.

----------------------------------------------------

Goes back to the old question, "why do the majority of the users out there use MS IE when there are so many better browsers out there?
Answer, they are too lazy to learn another system.

Are you serious?

There is so much wrong about this frame of mind that I'm not going to address it fully, as we could spend all day debating it. lol.

Let me sum it up by saying... I used Netscape for years, Opera for about a year, and I keep coming back to IE. It's not out of laziness. It's because I personally think IE is the best browser made. Why use something that makes me do more than is necessary, when the result is the same? I'm not using a tool because "it works the way an authoring product should." And which way would that be? And by whose definition?

No, I don't plan on "adapting my workflow" around DVDLab. A great package will let me use whatever workflow I am comfortable with, and not expect me to change.

I don't use tools because they're hard and elitist. I use them because they help me get my job done quickly and correctly. As a software developer, we engage in these same discussions continually.

With that said, I'll take a look at DVDLab. Perhaps less of a look, now that I see how rigid it appears to be.

[willy_annand]

Well, I must admit that I have not used Spruce UP, but I have friends who have and according to them, if you feed SpruceUp slightly off MPEGs, you will get a good burn out of it. So the conclusion is that Spruceup must alter your source somehow....

The same can be said for TMPG Author, I have tried here, I fed it the PAL to NTSC incorrectly converted MPEG and got a working DVD. So, TMPG must have changed the source to correct it.

BTW, the problem with the "incorrect" transfer had to do with the field order of the interlacing. As we all know if the field order is incorrect, the result is jerky video.

And don't worry about your attitude john, I will be here to continue to help and educate you dispite it.

[bek]

Fooling around with Photoshop for the last hour, trying to create a nice menu for TMPGEnc Author, has taught me something. I may give TMPGEnc Author a very hard look. Basically, since it's strength is in actually grabbing the video/audio correctly and not the "prettying up" of the user interface, it is requiring me to use Photoshop a lot more than I normally do. Since I also occasionally need Photoshop for my job, TMPGEnc Author would help me develop a job skill that I need for work anyway.

So.... hmmm... so right now TA is my #1 choice.

[willy_annand]

No, I don't plan on "adapting my workflow" around DVDLab. A great package will let me use whatever workflow I am comfortable with, and not expect me to change.

I don't use tools because they're hard and elitist. I use them because they help me get my job done quickly and correctly. As a software developer, we engage in these same discussions continually.

With that said, I'll take a look at DVDLab. Perhaps less of a look, now that I see how rigid it appears to be.

You do not have to adapt your work flow, just the settings and possibly the tools you use.

Two tools that have proven to be problematic in creating compliant MPEGs are Womble MPEG-VCR, it does a quick MPEG edit and rewrites only the headers, sometimes not trimming the MPEG in line with the I-frames, thus throwing off the timecodes, this usually causes a sync error.

Also, MainConcept had problems with creating compliant LPCM streams. It is one of the bugs corrected in V1.4

Also, due to the fact that DVD-Lab does not alter your input, you have to make sure your total bitrate does not exceed the DVD Standard.

Your workflow is always the same....

Capture / Edit / transcode / author / burn.

One warning, DVD-lab's built-in DVD recording module is a general ASPI writing application and some DVD Writers won't be able to handle it. One of my writers is an older LG unit and it does not like it. The Plextor works fine.

[willy_annand]

There is one solution I will not be recommending to my clients....

So, Mr/Ms Client you want professional looking DVDs, well we have 2 choices.

1. Spend $100.00 for DVD-Lab

or

2. Spend $70.00 on TMPG Author and $650.00 on Photoshop to get professional results.



Sorry bek, that just struck my funny bone....
You won't alter you workflow for DVD-Lab, but you will learn another software package to get good results from TMPG...

[bek]

I agree!


Here's a third scenario you should offer your clients:

3. Spent $70 on TMPGEnc and $70 on Paint Shop Pro and save endless hours trying to fix audio sync problems.


That should sell anyone.

(I'm willing to learn Photoshop better than I do now because I use it on the job.)

[willy_annand]

I agree!


Here's a third scenario you should offer your clients:

3. Spent $70 on TMPGEnc and $70 on Paint Shop Pro and save endless hours trying to fix audio sync problems.


That should sell anyone.

No, that is still spending almost 50% more than you need to.

[bek]

Eh, I guess it depends on your point of view. I want a tool that will enable me to get things done quickly and efficiently. I'm not sure I need to become zen-master of audio/video syncronization. Learning more about Photoshop, on the other hand, has distinct advantages for my career.

[willy_annand]

I like to find low cost yet quality solutions.

That is why I picked up a new NLE package.
I got tired of Premiere 6.0 crashing, so I looked around.

For $106.00 US, I picked up a copy of Pure Motion's Edit Studio 4, it came with MPEG XS, a Main Concept clone that is very fast and the quality is outstanding.

That coupled with DVD-Lab at $100.00 US means I can produce top quality professional looking DVDs for under the cost of any quality Ulead or Sonic package. Sorry, but Ulead Movie Factory and Sonic MyDVD are not even in the same league.

[willy_annand]

Eh, I guess it depends on your point of view. I want a tool that will enable me to get things done quickly and efficiently. I'm not sure I need to become zen-master of audio/video syncronization. Learning more about Photoshop, on the other hand, has distinct advantages for my career.

If it helps your career, then I am all for it.

All I was saying was that for the average user, PhotoShop is a little over kill.

And you don't have to be Zen master, you just have to use quality tools to get a quality product. Like I pointed out, so many small utilities do not produce compliant video. Version 1.3 of DVD-Lab added some checks to see if things were correct, like proper LPCM headers and correct MPEG GOP and timecodes.

But it still does not alter anything, so if I put in a combined video/audio stream whose combined bitrate at one point along the timeline is over the DVD White book standard, it still will not work.

It follows the old GIGO, except this time the "G" pertains to the DVD Specifications.

[bek]

That coupled with DVD-Lab at $100.00 US means I can produce top quality professional looking DVDs for under the cost of any quality Ulead or Sonic package. Sorry, but Ulead Movie Factory and Sonic MyDVD are not even in the same league.

That's interesting. So what does DVDLab offer that DVD Workshop (Movie Factory's big brother) doesn't?

[willy_annand]

That's interesting. So what does DVDLab offer that DVD Workshop (Movie Factory's big brother) doesn't?

Three main things:

1. Motion Menus.
2. Switched Menus.
3. $400.00 in my wallet.

Item 3 was the key factor.

[bek]

You can mark #1 off the list, as DVD Workshop has motion menus. I'm not sure what #2 is, but my guess it has this as well.

DVD Workshop AC-3, currently the fanciest version, is only $299.

[willy_annand]

Actually I just reread the Ulead website, the current version of Workshop does do motion menus.
But reason 3 still out weighs the decision.