Would anyone still buy a Pioneer Kuro panel ?

[Seeker47]

. . . knowing that Pioneer has gotten out of most of the manufacturing businesses it was in, and has been pretty much circling the wagons ? I'm thinking in terms of parts and service issues, down the line.

This question may be academic, as I suspect that any non-refurb stock on these is pretty much gone by this point, and the last few times I saw any of them for sale the prices had not come down anywhere near as much as one might have reason to expect. (I think a deep discount would be one of the few things that might counterbalance the concerns I expressed above.) But I was curious to hear some comments on this.

[edDV]

The Kuro has all the best plasma features. If you mostly watch movies in a semi darkened room, the Kuro will rival or beat the best of the LCD panels.

Plasma downside is power consumption (anti-green) and declining support.

This is similar to the CRT HDTV situation a few years back. The better CRT's made great pictures but lost out due to bulk and weight. In the end people didn't care about better pictures.

[minidv2dvd]

This is similar to the CRT HDTV situation a few years back. The better CRT's made great pictures but lost out due to bulk and weight. In the end people didn't care about better pictures.

i think this was a supply side decision, not demand. cost to manufacture and distribute large screen crts was greater than plasma/lcd so the profit margins were smaller. no viewer in there right mind would voluntarily choose plasma/lcd over crt.

[Seeker47]

The Kuro has all the best plasma features. If you mostly watch movies in a semi darkened room, the Kuro will rival or beat the best of the LCD panels.

That's why I was interested in them.

Plasma downside is power consumption (anti-green) and declining support.

I'm willing to pay for the difference in electricity . . . just not anything like the $6K. or so I recall some of the Kuro panels going for.

As to what you said about the CRTs, that debate has raged here on and off. But it's moot now; that ship has sailed. We are left with other, more limited choices now.

None of this really addressed the questions I raised in my post: would anyone still buy a Kuro (at a certain price, if they were still available, which quite possibly they are not), knowing full well the dire straits Pioneer seems to be in ?

[edDV]

I'd buy one for a darkened "home thearter" or bedroom TV that isn't on all day. The price would need to be good.

If you are concerned about Pioneer going away, consider one of the better Panasonic or Samsung plasmas. You might call Pioneer directly and ask about long term support.

[orsetto]

I would buy one in a second, without hesitation, if I had the money and had the room to install it properly (alas, I have neither to spare at the moment). The Kuros are incomparable at displaying older standard-def material, which lets face it if you're a collector is 90% of your library. Displays are like anything else electronic these days: if you get one properly functioning out of the box, it will last you five years or so, if you're lucky it'll last much longer. But when it breaks, it gets recycled and we're onto the next thing: almost nothing is repairable anymore. Although at least with Kuros, some of the final models were largely assembled from cream-of-the-crop Panasonic components, so they should be repairable by Panasonic plasma service providers.

[Seeker47]

I'd buy one for a darkened "home thearter" or bedroom TV that isn't on all day. The price would need to be good.

If you are concerned about Pioneer going away, consider one of the better Panasonic or Samsung plasmas. You might call Pioneer directly and ask about long term support.

Thanks, edDV. Since Vizio got out of the plasma game, and LG may not compare with the others (?), those seem to be the only remaining players. It may be that none of them will still be making plasma, a year or two from now, so the clock is probably ticking for anyone who wanted in on that technology.

[MJA]

I heard-read that Pioneer KURO KRP500 panel is identical to the Pioneer KURO Elite

for half the cost (50' for $1500)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1102574

[usually_quiet]

This is similar to the CRT HDTV situation a few years back. The better CRT's made great pictures but lost out due to bulk and weight. In the end people didn't care about better pictures.

i think this was a supply side decision, not demand. cost to manufacture and distribute large screen crts was greater than plasma/lcd so the profit margins were smaller. no viewer in there right mind would voluntarily choose plasma/lcd over crt.

I still have CRT TVs and in some ways the picture beats Plasma/LCD TVs, but putting cost aside, the weight of larger CRT sets was always a deal-breaker for me. Like many other middle-aged folks, I have a bad back and unfortunately, console TVs or TVs that sit on other furniture do have to be moved sometimes, and there is not always somebody around to help.

[Seeker47]

I would buy one in a second, without hesitation, if I had the money and had the room to install it properly (alas, I have neither to spare at the moment). The Kuros are incomparable at displaying older standard-def material, which lets face it if you're a collector is 90% of your library. Displays are like anything else electronic these days: if you get one properly functioning out of the box, it will last you five years or so, if you're lucky it'll last much longer. But when it breaks, it gets recycled and we're onto the next thing: almost nothing is repairable anymore. Although at least with Kuros, some of the final models were largely assembled from cream-of-the-crop Panasonic components, so they should be repairable by Panasonic plasma service providers.

That's good to know, Orsetto. Thanks. A very valid point about the standard-def material, too.

However, this is a good example of something I think I would only want to buy locally, from a brick & mortar concern that has a decent chance of surviving this recession. It probably entails too much risk to have it shipped from some online e-tailer. Price questions aside, I would be surprised if there were very many of the Kuros still in the retail pipeline.

[Seeker47]

I heard-read that Pioneer KURO KRP500 panel is identical to the Pioneer KURO Elite

for half the cost (50' for $1500)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1102574

Well, this is very interesting. Today I stopped by Ken Cranes (a Home Theater chain in SoCal), and talked to a salesman. He said there have been no current or recent model Pioneer Kuro panels in the retail chain for a year and a half, at this point. He said, "Believe me, I would know about it. I've been doing this for 23 years. We were a Pioneer dealer, and they were the best. If anyone claims to still be selling them, it must be older, reconditioned panels, and there's probably something fishy going on. You can call Pioneer to confirm what I'm telling you."

So, was he just blowing smoke, because he doesn't have the product to sell ? I'll check the AVS link, but I'd like to source this info. I may stop by the Magnolia section at a BB, just to see if they're singing the same tune.

[MJA]

what about the Panasonic G Series TC-P50G15? it said the quality of this model is closed to the Kuro

[KBeee]

The Panasonic V series is better than the G, but the Kuro still slightly outclasses it.
If anyone can still find a Kuro, and provided it comes with a 5 year warranty, I'd say go for it.

[Seeker47]

what about the Panasonic G Series TC-P50G15? it said the quality of this model is closed to the Kuro

That remains a solid 'Plan B.' Panasonic is available almost anywhere, though. (So, no pressing need to rush out and find one.) But I'd like to confirm what that salesman said, before completely writing off the Kuro. And thanks for that tip, KBeee.

[KBeee]

It's also a good idea to factor in the cost of a profession calibration for high-end displays, though the latest V series Panasonics have a pretty good out-of-the-box setup with their THX setting.
The Pioneer UK display factory closed about a year ago, and then Kuros that were sold here in the UK shipped from Japan, until finally no more were forthcoming.
The price never really dropped because of supply/demand - People were still after them right up to the end - there are still people on UK forums asking which stores still have 5090's and 6090's for sale (all the 500 and 600A's are gone).
Pioneer lost out in the mass market, where the money is made, but their high-end displays are still the one to beat even a year later.
Many of the Pioneer engineers from their TV division are now working for Panasonic, so I'm expecting great things from Panny over the next year or so.
And if I was buying a new TV now (I bought a Pioneer 600A before they ran out) I'd go for the Panasonic TX-P65V10

[Seeker47]

It's also a good idea to factor in the cost of a profession calibration for high-end displays, though the latest V series Panasonics have a pretty good out-of-the-box setup with their THX setting.
The Pioneer UK display factory closed about a year ago, and then Kuros that were sold here in the UK shipped from Japan, until finally no more were forthcoming.
The price never really dropped because of supply/demand - People were still after them right up to the end - there are still people on UK forums asking which stores still have 5090's and 6090's for sale (all the 500 and 600A's are gone).
Pioneer lost out in the mass market, where the money is made, but their high-end displays are still the one to beat even a year later.
Many of the Pioneer engineers from their TV division are now working for Panasonic, so I'm expecting great things from Panny over the next year or so.
And if I was buying a new TV now (I bought a Pioneer 600A before they ran out) I'd go for the Panasonic TX-P65V10

Re Calibration: I have an Avia disc -- one of the later editions that seems to have been simplified somewhat (?). Whether that would be sufficient, I don't know. {There was an umpteen-page thread on AVS re calibrating the LCD panel I bought, with many users posting their preferred, non-factory settings. But in the end, I did not find that much to fault in those Toshiba factory settings.}

All the plasma Pannys sold in the U.S. are made in Mexico. Not necessarily implying anything by that, as they seem to get good reviews; just sayin'.

The one you mentioned appears to be a 65"-er. (I know Europe is extensively metric, but you guys still use inches, don't you ?) Anyway, I don't think I will be looking for anything larger than 56".

[KBeee]

Panasonics sold in the US might be manufactured in Mexico, but their models will still be developed in Japan.
Any "pro calibrated" factory setting (like Panasonics THX mode, or Pioneers 500/600A series Pure mode) will get you an excellent picture, very close to a professionally home calibrated set up, but sadly picture quality seems to be pretty low in the pecking order for the average consumer.
<lil rant here>
There was a survey that found that 30% of new TV's sold NEVER had their PQ settings altered from how the TV was delivered.
And we've all been to family and friends places where they are perfectly happy to watch a display with garish colours, over-bright, over-contrasty, artifact infested pictures, and quite often 4:3 images stretched to fit their 16:9 display, who'll say "Hasn't our new TV got a lovely picture?"
Usually followed by "Why are your eyes bleeding?"

[lordsmurf]

and talked to a salesman. He said ............"Believe me, I would know about it. I've been doing this for 23 years. .

Not to insult retail store salesmen everywhere, but they happen to be one of the worst sources of knowledge on any product.

Next in line comes the 1-800 numbers, where they read off scripts. Then again, at least they have scripts, salesmen often pull facts right our of their ass.

Salesman conspiracy theories aside, it's not uncommon for me to walk into local stores here, especially the regional/local electronics stores or furniture stores, and find brand new products that were discontinued up to 5 years ago. They never sold due to being overpriced, and the clearance prices are often STILL too high. Then again, if it's a real gem (JVC DVD recorders, for example!) then it's probably a good find. This TV may be the same.

Online stores can be the same way, and many of those are wholesalers that bought out old stock from B&M's that were liquidated.

[lordsmurf]

family and friends places where they are perfectly happy to watch a display with garish colours, over-bright, over-contrasty, artifact infested pictures, and quite often 4:3 images stretched to fit their 16:9 display, who'll say "Hasn't our new TV got a lovely picture?"

If it's a friend or family member, I have no problem saying "your TV is fucked up, mind if I fix it for you?"
And even if they decline, I still tend to fidget with the remote.

I pull the Mr. Monk line: "You'll thank me later."

[Seeker47]

Salesman conspiracy theories aside, it's not uncommon for me to walk into local stores here, especially the regional/local electronics stores or furniture stores, and find brand new products that were discontinued up to 5 years ago. They never sold due to being overpriced, and the clearance prices are often STILL too high. Then again, if it's a real gem (JVC DVD recorders, for example!) then it's probably a good find. This TV may be the same.

Online stores can be the same way, and many of those are wholesalers that bought out old stock from B&M's that were liquidated.

That's why I was saying a statement like the salesman's needs to be verified.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I suspect you (or at least most of us) would be disinclined to drop upwards of a couple large on a flat panel that was being shipped to us by some e-tailer. Too many things can go wrong there, with the resulting hassle-factor being enormous. I would be much more inclined to get something like that from a real, local store that is likely to stand behind what they sell.

But with something like a discontinued Kuro, that option might not exist.

That was a good idea about the furniture stores, though. Hadn't thought of that.

[minidv2dvd]

b&h photo has 500m's. you have to call the 800 number for the price/purchase though.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/607716-REG/Pioneer_KRP_500M_KRP500M_50_FLAT_PANEL.html

[lordsmurf]

When I use a credit card, I honestly don't worry that much.

[Seeker47]

The Panasonic V series is better than the G, but the Kuro still slightly outclasses it.
If anyone can still find a Kuro, and provided it comes with a 5 year warranty, I'd say go for it.

b&h photo has 500m's. you have to call the 800 number for the price/purchase though.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/607716-REG/Pioneer_KRP_500M_KRP500M_50_FLAT_PANEL.html

And here's where it gets interesting. I happened to stop by the nearest BB on Black Friday, which had a "Magnolia" section (not all of them do) in the basement level. Never even knew it was there. They had two Pioneer Elite panels on their display wall, a 50" and a 54". When I finally rounded up a salesman, he said this was not just a matter of leftover display models, they can still get these. Factory refurbs, I asked ? No, he said, and they still have them in the supply chain. I'm not sure about what the exact model #s are, but this flies in the face of what the Ken Crain's (higher-end HT chain) salesman had said, about these being gone from retail distribution for 18 months now. The 50" plasma panel was still over 5 Large, though, so it doesn't seem like the price has come down, despite Pioneer pulling the plug on them. And, I gotta say, from what I saw their PQ still blows the others away !

I'm puzzled in that they also had a Panasonic 54" plasma panel in the Magnolia section, likewise listed at over 5 grand. They did not show a model # for it though. Could it have been from a Panasonic "studio monitor" series I heard mentioned somewhere ? The rather favorably reviewed V-series 54" (current top consumer model ??) is supposed to be available for around half that price !

Apart from the price difference, a couple other things might incline me more in the direction of the V-series Panny. There are supposedly some real improvements in energy efficiency now, and the last of the Pioneers will not have the internet connectivity feature, which could become more important as time goes on.

Incidentally, the original reason I stopped by BB was to check out that announced Black Friday deal on the WD media player. More like B.S. ! Turns out they were just trying to clear the shelves of the older version; they are still selling the new model for a very unimpressive $149. You can easily find them for $30. less at NewEgg, probably not even a "sale" price.

[aedipuss]

pioneer appears to still be making the kuro 50 and 60. not the "elite kuro". the cheaper versions are still in pioneers online store and multiple online retailers.

the only 54" pioneer i recall was a pre-HD model. no kuros.

[jagabo]

Incidentally, the original reason I stopped by BB was to check out that announced Black Friday deal on the WD media player. More like B.S. ! Turns out they were just trying to clear the shelves of the older version; they are still selling the new model for a very unimpressive $149.

If you point out that BestBuy.com has them for $119 they'll match the price. They did for me a few months ago.