MPEG editing in Premiere

[Triffid]

I recently found that when I edit an MPEG2 file (encoded with TMPGEnc) in Premiere that there is a regular pattern of repeated frames. This makes the video kind of 'stuttered'.

The same file, when played in any player, does not exhibit the problem )only when opened in premiere).

The exported file (after edit) from premier retains the repeated fields (and is therefore quite useless).

Has anyone else experienced this problems?

I have tried importing an MPEG2 encoded with the Premier encoder, and it also does NOT have the problem...so it seems to be a compatibility between Premiere and TMPGEnc problems

(Premiere 6.5 and TMPGencPlus, latest version)

Any thoughts?

[Karate Media]

I cannot reply to your specific problem, but I do know that Premiere has trouble with mpg2/m2v files that have LPCM audio, such as created with Smart Ripper or with an external device such as Dazzle DVC 150. When playing back these files within Premiere, there is a sort of "stuttering" effect -- it is even difficult to merely scrub the timeline! It doesn't really create double frames, but it could seem like it -- Are you actually getting doubled frames or just the impression of it?

What sort of audio file does TMPGEnc create for mpeg2s, anyway?

Maybe this helped...

[Karate Media]

Nevermind -- I just re-read your post and can see that it is not the same problem...the problem I described goes away when the the file is exported. Sorry...

[Triffid]

Thanks for the reply.

The MPEG file I am using has MPEG audio.

I am sure there are repeated frames, for two reasons.

1. When you single frame step through the clip in Premiere, you can see that regularly there are frame which do not change even when there is otherwise continuous motion.

2. I exported the time line as an .avi file (in fact this is how I first spotted the problem) and analyzed it with DynaPELs Videoscope product and it showed a very clear repeating pattern of repeated frames (that were not present in the original .avi used to create the MPEG....I even used TMPGE to convert the MPEG back to an avi and analyzed it...the result - NO repeated frames). The frame rate, and everything else, however, were perfect. so it is not adding frames.

[BJ_M]

premiere is pretty poor to try to edit mpeg files first off ..

[dcsos]

If you look on Abobe's website you will see that Adobe Premiere 6.5 is not capable of editing MPEG-2 without a plug-in

They state somewhere , though I can't find it now that site is huge and I'm a dial-up

The two exceptions: 1.If you have a capture card that captures in
MPEG-2 ..the card will install the capability to edit that card's
kind of mpeg-2
2. If you buy one of the few IMPORT PLUG INS like MPEG-2 MARVEL for Premiere

That said, I've edited MPEG-2 in Premiere fine on several occasions.. but It chokes on AC3 companion files sometimes and 48,000khz Mpeg also sometimes Sometimes It just gets real slow when you bring MPEG-2 in

but I bought this MPEG MARVEL and when I get it (by snail mail)
I'll repost

[Triffid]

OK, so maybe I'm just trying to do the wrong job with the right tools (or something like that).

Anyway, this is what I was trying to achieve, maybe someone has a good bit of advice on how to go about it:

I have a lot of home video that I have transferred or am in the process of transferring to DVD. From my (and my family's) point of view, I want to transfer every second of it, for the memories. However, no one else wants to sit through hundreds of hours of real time travel around Europe, so I also want to make a more polished, and much abreviated, version for 'public' viewing.

As I don't want to recapture everything all over again (and becasue I can't deal with too many files of that sort of size at any one time on the PC), I hoped to do the editing on the MPEG2 files (which I have archived, as well as authored to DVD). It was my hope to use premiere for the job, but perhaps I need to look else where, or buy plugins etc, to get this working.

Another option I can see is to use TMPGEnc to convert back to .avi and then edit in Premiere. This removes the recapture step (and all the associated headaches with drops and field swaps etc. etc.) but still means I have to deal with the large files (although I can just covert the sections I want, which would help a bit).

Any comments??

[Karate Media]

I recently had to transfer a production company's demo DVD to VHS; I had to splice two brief DVDs together, and trim some footage. Admittedly, these DVDs were only 3 minutes in length each, but the concept is the same...

I used Smart Ripper to create m2v files from the DVD and imported these into Premiere 6.5. I do not have any sort of "mpeg plug-in" and am not familiar with the previous post's warning about needing one (nor could I find any disclaimer on Adobe's website).

As I mentioned before, the LPCM audio caused some trouble.

If I remember correctly, all I needed to do was turn off the audio tracks in the timeline while I was editing and there was no stuttering. Turned the audio on when I had to to make precision cuts, and also when I exported it.

I think (it's been a month or two, and I haven't had to try it since) I exported it as DV .avi, brought it back into Premiere, and played it out to a VCR. If I get a chance, maybe I'll try it again tomorrow night and see if I can replicate the experience...

Regardless, I assume you could just as easily export it as a m2v file.

So that's my two-cent option: try Smart Ripper, create m2v's from your DVDs, edit them in Premiere (w/ audio off, if need be), then export with 6.5's mpeg encoder (or as an .avi and then convert to mpeg in converter of your choice)

I'm sure there are a bevy of other ways as well...

[dcsos]

Sure it works.. I've done MPEG-2 editing in Premiere without a plug in...
But it may NOT work just when you want it too!
READ THIS FROM MARK BAILEY with MAIN CONCEPT (MPEG-2 encoder maker from Premiere)

Here's a clarification about MPEG editing:

Premiere 6.5 doesn't explicitly support native MPEG editing. It does include a system-level MPEG decoder that is provided so that Windows Media Player and other programs can play MPEG-2 files created with the encoder (since Windows doesn't include MPEG-2 support).

One added benefit of this decoder is that it allows you to import MPEG-2 files into Premiere, place them on the timeline, etc. However, it is not a full-fledged MPEG editing module. MPEG items on the timeline will be re-rendered when exported. Due to the nature of the MPEG format, this can result in quality loss.

Of course, in such cases it's advisable to start with your original source files anyway instead of editing MPEG files that have already been exported.

Mark Bailey
MainConcept

http://www.adobeforums.com/cgi-bin/webx?13@175.uvhPaYkYLJO.14@.ef9f98f/2
[/quote]

[Karate Media]

dcsos

I might be confused...from Mark Bailey's comment, I infer the main obstacles to be 1) The range of use of the mpeg2 codec and 2)The quality of the final output due to re-rendering.

I would think that most people with a DVD burner have #1 covered b/c of the software DVD player that came w/ their burner (eg, I have PowerDVD XP installed b/c of my Sony burner) -- that covers the need for a higher quality mpeg2 codec that is capable of broader use, right?

As for #2, this doesn't surprise me -- in fact, it's exactly what I expected; It's like saving a jpeg as a jpeg in Photoshop: you lose a little quality in the recompression. I don't think it would be bad enough to worry the casual user.

I don't see anything in his quote -- or in the original thread link you provided -- that applies to the inability to actually edit mpeg2 files in Premiere.

Is there something else I'm missing? I checked out the MpegMarvel website and had difficulty figuring out exactly what added benefits the plug-in gave re: editing mpegs in Premiere. Am I just thick, or blind?

I hope I haven't hijacked this thread to horribly...

[dcsos]

Perfect Question:\Thats exactly what MPEG MARVEL is sposed to do..Make it so there is no recompression except as needed to render effects!
Even TMPG knows how to so-called join MPEG rather than RECOMPRESS IT IN ANY WAY
I'll see if it works If they ever ship it to me!

[Karate Media]

So...how does this apply to Triffid's problem? Or did we end up going off on a tangent?

Did you ever try the smart ripper idea, Trif?

KM

[txpharoah]

Two questions:

1. Is the MPEG source interlaced?
2. Is it or CAN it be MPEG2 with I-frames only.

I edit MPEG2 captured as I-frames only (or IPB) all the time, edited in Adobe Premiere 6.5, and then export with either Cleaner 5 or MainConcept. It looks fine, except when the source has lots of P and B frames, or if it is interlaced. The stutter effect you describe is most likely one of the areas, and even then, most likely due to being interlaced.

Not sure I can help with a solution here, but I think I can identify the problem for you at very least.

(FYI: Premiere can import MPEG1/MPEG2 just fine without any special plugins, and it is supported as an importable format by Adobe. I really wonder what planet some of these users get their information from. I buy my progams, use them professionally, and I have books to look up these simple facts.)

[David K]

"Mpeg-VCR" is a dedicated mpeg editing program. You should try a demo of this and see if it works for you. I've been doing the same thing as you, converting home movies, and then wanting to make "best of" clips. This program works directly with VOB files with AC-3 sound.

[dcsos]

If you purchase the Mpeg Marvel,you will be able to Import any kinda MPEG-2 VIDEO
onto your 6.5 timeline..
These stuttering frames from TMPG encodes will be gone if you use this tool.
Now the ouptut MPEG from Premiere smoothness is matched by any kinda mpeg input
however..i'm upset cause
The audio doesn't importfrom Ac3 like the ad says and I'm finding my MPEG-audio encodes go out of sync -in 30 seconds!
I'll repost after more experiments
Also It came witha parallel port dongle...oh well..

[Nelson37]

What was the source of the file which was encoded with TMPGenc?

What was the original Framerate?

What Framerate was used to encode in TMPGenc?

What is the pattern of repeating frames? If it is 1 in 5, or close to that, this sounds like you may be editing a file with the Pulldown flag enabled, or you may have a framerate conversion happening.

What do you see if you open this file in Vdub and step thru the frames?

[VideoTechMan]

Well, based on what was mentioned earlier in the post, Premeire does not really support MPEG-type editing, mainly because I think theat it only handles uncompressed files like AVI and DV sources. Might be an idea to just convert it back to avi and then import it into Premeire.

VideoTechMan

[Triffid]

I'll have a quick stab at answering some of the questions you have asked. (I'm on holiday, and sitting at an internet cafe...and my hour is almost up!)

Files were encoded with TMPGEnc, from home video source. Frame rate is and has always remained 35 fps (in live in Australia, and so that's the way it should be). I know I will get repeated frames if I accidentally set the wrong frame rate (I did this the first time I tried editing the file in prmiere...so I know what that looks like.) There should not be any pulldown flags anywhere when I'm working with PAL. But I will check that, in case there is an inappropriate setting in Premiere somewhere.

The files are properly encoded for DVD, so they are NOT I only. And, this also is the way it must be for my purposes.

When I look at the outputted avi files in virtual dub, there are definately repeated frames (note: these repeated frames replace otherames that should be there, so the frame rate is still correct).

As for the convert to avi suggestion. That is waht I think I said earlier. If I convert to avi in TMPGEnc first, then I can work with them fine in Premier. However (unless I do some 'editing' in TMPGEnc first) this brings me back to my very large file problem. As I will work with several avis at once, which started their lives as 15GByte files, this will be a problem! I guess I could apply some other compression (eg MJPEG) but at some point I am going to end up with low quality files and prbably still files which are too large!!

Again, thank you all very much for the responses. It is great to get so much assistance.

[bvcproductions]

I don't know if this was mentioned (I didn't read all the posts), but you can get a modified version of VirtualDub (under Tool on left) that imports MPEG2. It works like the original, except you can import MPEG2.

What I do is insert the video into that, save it as avi using a lossless codec (Divx5) using very high bitrate, import it in Premiere, edit the video, export as Divx, encode as MPEG2 or MPEG1 using TMPGEnc, and it works very well. I don't get any quality loss since I set the bitrate to 3000+.

Recently I had to edit an 18min of a Formula 1 race which was in MPEG2, and I didn't loose anything. Even after the editing the video was still like the original, no quality loss, but the bad thing is, it takes too long, but it's worth it.

Hope this helps

[BJ_M]

DiVX5 is not a lossless codec .. far from it ... its a mpeg4 version and like any mpeg version - non are totally lossless

[bvcproductions]

Really????? I always though it was a lossless codec. Anyway, it still does the job.