Piracy - What is the border line?

[pbhalerao]

I would very much be interested to know the forum members views on piracy – where does it start? I understand that if I buy a copyrighted material, duplicate it and sell the duplicates for personal profit, then I am a pirate.

But what about ‘soft’ cases? For example:

1. If I lend my DVD to a friend, does it amount to piracy?

2. If yes, then we do often lend books to each other. Does it also amount to piracy and infringement of copyright?

3. If yes again, then what about public libraries? They allow borrowing of books and movies to members for free. Are they too indulging in piracy?

4. If I have a cable connection at home, do I have the right to run a parallel connection to my bedroom? I think the cable companies do not permit this. Why is this termed as piracy?

Any such parallel argument is welcome. I am interested in knowing views of as many members as possible, especially the moderators. I hope not to start a war here. Constructive debate – yes, war of words and egos – definitely not.

[bugster]

1. If I lend my DVD to a friend, does it amount to piracy?

No, you are not reproducing it and are simply allowing your friend the use of something you own. This is NOT piracy and it applies to any physical medium, books VHS etc.

[Gazorgan]

#4 If you put a splitter in the cable and hook up a 2nd TV, yes that constitutes 'Theft of Service'. In the US, the governments (local) set the rules for cable tv. The cable company is allowed to charge you for each 'possible' connection or drop. So, if you have cable TV outlets in 4 rooms, you have to pay a monthly fee for each one. Now if you have TV's hooked up, then there are additional fees depending on the services you get. Any violation is called theft of service, and it's relatively to check your house from the distribution tap and see how many drops and devices you have connected, very easy

[Bravoxena]

1. If I lend my DVD to a friend, does it amount to piracy?

No, you are not reproducing it and are simply allowing your friend the use of something you own. This is NOT piracy and it applies to any physical medium, books VHS etc.

Actually, even lending a music CD or a DVD to you sister is technically illegal. Some laws are just pathetic!

[bugster]

1. If I lend my DVD to a friend, does it amount to piracy?

No, you are not reproducing it and are simply allowing your friend the use of something you own. This is NOT piracy and it applies to any physical medium, books VHS etc.

Actually, even lending a music CD or a DVD to you sister is technically illegal. Some laws are just pathetic!

It might be in Canada but not here in the UK. You OWN the DVD and can do what you like with it as long as you don't copy it and lend or sell the copies.

[ckdexterhn1]

If you put a splitter in the cable and hook up a 2nd TV, yes that constitutes 'Theft of Service'. In the US, the governments (local) set the rules for cable tv. The cable company is allowed to charge you for each 'possible' connection or drop. So, if you have cable TV outlets in 4 rooms, you have to pay a monthly fee for each one. Now if you have TV's hooked up, then there are additional fees depending on the services you get. Any violation is called theft of service, and it's relatively to check your house from the distribution tap and see how many drops and devices you have connected, very easy

My cable company will charge you for each separate cable box you have from them, but they have no problem with customers using as many splitters are they want - WITHIN THE SAME RESIDENCE. In fact, when I was having problems with my reception, my cable guy said I needed certain kind of wiring to each VCR & TV to get the best picture. He then put splitters and new wires on ALL of my TV's & VCR's...NO CHARGE!

[DiscoverPlatinum]

Here's my opinion:

#1 - No I don't think it's piracy. Your friend is just borrowing it. He or she is not reproducing and selling.

#2 - No.

#3- No.

I think the loophole for reproducing is doing that not for profit, but for personal use(s). Like if u were to copy a CD, and distribute it to a couple of friends. You're not selling it, you're giving it to them for their personal use.

[ryanreko]

I too believe that the line that gets crossed is the duplication one... Backing up your stuff i think can be borderline, cause you might back up something the lend the original to someone which constitutes as piracy... Atleast from what i understand

[painkiller]

Sorry, but I have to weigh in on this.

I have a real concern about the notion that splitting a video cable to support multiple rooms is "theft of service."

What most people do nolt know, or remember, is that decades ago the telephone service in this country was managed (largely) by one single company. AT&T. They charged not only for your dial tone, but by the number of telephones in your house.

At one point in their history, the federal govt determined them to be a monpoly and forced a number of changes. One of those changes was to cease and desist in the charging of multiple outlets/telephones. Another major change was the splitting of the company into regional companies.

The point is - from a consumer point of view - why should you pay more than once, for the exact same product being delivered to your house/address?

I find it odd that most are too willing to accept the notion of ever higher, and continuing, costs hitting our pockets.

The people we put into Congress, who claim to be looking out for our best interests, no longer speak in these terms. And just try to educate them with this history, that most of them have actually lived through.

The last Telecommunications Act was supposed to have removed this piece (among other changes) where you no longer should be charged for additional outlets. But it appears that most don't even bother to follow that law. And no one else knows to call them on it.

[Bravoxena]

1. If I lend my DVD to a friend, does it amount to piracy?

No, you are not reproducing it and are simply allowing your friend the use of something you own. This is NOT piracy and it applies to any physical medium, books VHS etc.

Actually, even lending a music CD or a DVD to you sister is technically illegal. Some laws are just pathetic!

It might be in Canada but not here in the UK. You OWN the DVD and can do what you like with it as long as you don't copy it and lend or sell the copies.

Actually, a US Technology show host (Leo Laporte) told me so! So it's the same in US too.

I don't think the UK has such strict laws yet, as piracy is a relitavely new issue in the digital age.
Like in some third world countries, it's NOT illegal to install a spy-cam in someone's home because there are no laws against it.

[housepig]

I think the loophole for reproducing is doing that not for profit, but for personal use(s). Like if u were to copy a CD, and distribute it to a couple of friends. You're not selling it, you're giving it to them for their personal use.

nope, that loophole got closed in the mid 90's (actually it never was a loophole, but the language in the copyright law was amended to specifically include giving copyrighted material away instead of selling it).

I'm pretty sure it's in the NET act as well, that distribution of copies of copyrighted materials, even if not for profit, is illegal.

Mainly because enough people tried to use variants of that argument... "I didn't sell it... I didn't make any money off of it".

- housepig

[CrappoMan]

The main point of copyright/piracy laws is to protect the income of the copyright holder, so anything that impacts on the c/r holder's income is outlawed, e.g:

If you copied something you own and lent it to your friend, he/she would not have to go and buy/rent it and therefore you are impacting on the c/r holders income, so that's illegal.

Which brings up an interesting point: if you backup something you own, and the original "breaks", you would not have to go and re-buy it, and you would be impacting on the c/r holders income, so that would be illegal, or would it?.

If you backup something you own, and watch the backup, if it "breaks", you can make another backup from your pristine never watched original. But if you watch the original and it "breaks" can you legally copy a copy or would you have to destroy the backup and re-buy another original to backup?

Now i'm confused.

[SupaCoopa]

It seems that no-one pays any attention to the copyright screens the movie studios so elegantly put on their DVDs...
They usually say, among others, that "lending and hiring" is prohibited. That is, as I understand it, that you're not allowed to give the disc to any other person be it for free or for a fee.

Books usually say that you shouldn't copy them, but don't prohibit lending. As for public libraries lending digital media, I believe they hold special licences for doing so.

[CrappoMan]

It seems that no-one pays any attention to the copyright screens the movie studios so elegantly put on their DVDs...

That's because we all backup our originals and remove the copyright screens/movie logo's/trailers/etc

lol

[SaSi]

1. If I lend my DVD to a friend, does it amount to piracy?

No, you are not reproducing it and are simply allowing your friend the use of something you own. This is NOT piracy and it applies to any physical medium, books VHS etc.

Actually, even lending a music CD or a DVD to you sister is technically illegal. Some laws are just pathetic!

Some laws are RALLY pathetic and are not really up-to-date with technology and/or the current level of civilization.

Lending a CD or a DVD is illegal (the DVD titles specifically forbid you from that unless you have obtained permission). Well, you retain the right to sell the CD to your sister for a nominal price. So ask for the selling price from her and give her the DVD. When she 's through with it, she can give it back and get the money back. In this case, you are better off, since you don't lose your money in case your sister loses or destroys it

Since it's so easy to go round this absurd negation of rights, this limitation should not exist.

I remember the days Borland was strong. Their licence agreement was reasonable. "Use this s/w like a book. Only one person can read it at a time. If you own two computers (office/home) you can install it on both and use one at a time".

I fear that the real fact that more pirated copies of s/w (and DVD/CD) titles are in circulation than legal ones, authors (correction; publishers) try to enforce more strict rules. This causes more piracy. To the intentional piracy, unintentional piracy is also added.

[sterno]

I don't know that any cable companies currently consider use of splitters / multiple outlets "theft of service". What I have heard of is that they only guarantee a certain number of outlets, and if you have a crappy picture because there are too many splitters on the line they won't help you. They will, however, offer to charge you extra to install the wiring and/or equipment to handle your extra jacks, and increase your service charge accordingly.

What they usually do now to increase profits is move popular channels in to higher-cost service levels and push everybody toward digital cable, which often costs more and requires that you get a cable box for every TV (and makes it harder to program your VCR to tape things when you're gone).

[Conquest10]

I don't know that any cable companies currently consider use of splitters / multiple outlets "theft of service". What I have heard of is that they only guarantee a certain number of outlets, and if you have a crappy picture because there are too many splitters on the line they won't help you. They will, however, offer to charge you extra to install the wiring and/or equipment to handle your extra jacks, and increase your service charge accordingly.

What they usually do now to increase profits is move popular channels in to higher-cost service levels and push everybody toward digital cable, which often costs more and requires that you get a cable box for every TV (and makes it harder to program your VCR to tape things when you're gone).

yeah. i hate that. now i can't even see wrestling or movies that come on ppv cuz i got to pay extra for the digital cable and lease the receiver then pay what the ppv event costs.

[mysterio1]

Who's gonna catch you

[Bob W]

I don't what the law is but if I want to buy a DVD and give it to my friends or family IMO that should be legal.

[Karate Media]

1) No -- this is covered by what is called the "First Sale Doctrine", decided by the Supreme Court in the ol' Betamax case that gives us the boundries of Fair Use that are so often discussed in these forums: You have the right to do whatever you want to with a CD/DVD/whatever that you've bought -- this is how video stores rent out VHS and DVD movies. As long as you don't keep a copy of the original for yourself, it is perfectly legal for you to give lend someone a CD or DVD for their own private use. It must be the original copy, you cannot make a copy for yourself, and your friend cannot make a copy for him/her-self.

Ergo, 2) is also No

Also for 3), although the era of e-books is starting to cause libraries some problems

4) Such use of your cable should most likely be included in any terms and agreements written up in fine print when you signed up for cable service. I have never lived anywhere where splitting a cable line for personal use was considered theft -- in fact the cable guy was just out to my house recently for broadband troubles and showed me how the original line was split at the exterior box (where it enters the house) -- he also fixed the internal line where I had a split. With the number of split lines in my house, he'd have arrested me if was illegal!

It is different if you live in a duplex, or in a house with a vast number of unrelated people (like in a college town) If the house could be considered a number of separate, individual dwellings due to the fact that each individual room is rented out to someone different (as a number of older houses in my town are), then each person has to pay for their cable service separately. Again all of #4 will be based on where you live and who your cable provider is.


That's how it is NOW -- the era of digital rights management is screwing all of this up -- this could all change. Just remember that eventually, it's just all entertainment -- we can live without CDs and DVDs, and we can stop listening to music and watching movies and still be very happy, productive people -- but the studios, labels, etc. would fall apart if we did. They need us, we don't need them; they will die without our money, we will just have to learn how to play guitar and entertain ourselves without them. Who needs Smashmouth, Madonna, or Michael Bay anyways?

[MOVIEGEEK]

Well said Karate Media.
RE:Cable Co.
They will only charge per box or to physically connect extra tv's,splitting is not illegal.

RE:Making copies of copyrighted material
According to US law "copying is illegal without the written or expressed consent of the owner"and the US Supreme Court ruling was only "fair use" for taping tv shows for personal use.

http://www.museum.tv/archives/etv/B/htmlB/betamaxcase/betamaxcase.htm

[Questor]

What about this scenario, -

somebody makes backup copies of their DVD collection , and just in case they get burgled, or their house burns down (in which case, the backups would be useless), they keep their backup copies at their parents house, for example.

would that be breaking the law ?
u could tell the insurance company not to replace the DVD / CD collection because you have back-up copies ?

[ChrisX]

Piracy - The border line is "Fair Use" to copy for backup purposes personally on owned original copies such as Music CD's, DVD/VHS movies, computer programs as so on. This isn't for anybody else, only the owner.

Piracy is over that line such as lending, commercial copying and distribution of copyrighted material, selling and giving out infringing copies to others, stealing someone's work such as a computer program and so on.

Public library borrowing is an interesting concept and this is open to debate on whether lending of books and lending of movies to the public is legal or illegal. This would depend on a country's copyright laws. This is a grey area and I don't know if they breaking copyright laws here in Australia or America.

Cable TV Parallel connection restriction to me as about money, extra revenue to the cable TV provider. They are greedy. I think this ruling as unfair and should be made illegal. Parallel connection in one house and one owner of the cable TV subscription should be allowed.

Normal TV stations, such as CBS, NBC and ABC can viewed on any TV around the house or office. This cable TV ruling is ridiculous and infringement of freedom to the subscriber.

What about Internet access sharing in a network of computers? Internet access sharing to multiple computers in the home or office is legal as long as one connection at a time with a provider. This is very similar with parallel connection of cable TV. Again, this isn’t piracy in the one house or the one office and this should be allowed.

[ashtones]

Is it illegal to invite friends over to watch the DVD's I have bought or listen to my cd's. This would be taking money from the copywrite holder right.

[sterno]

What about Internet access sharing in a network of computers? Internet access sharing to multiple computers in the home or office is legal as long as one connection at a time with a provider.

This is a violation of the terms of service for some providers. Today it's more common for them to just say they won't help you if something goes wrong than to say they'll cut you off.

[Quigonsean]

I directly asked my cable company about sharing cabel modem across home network they said yup its fine, but I only get tech support on the one machine it was origanally hooked to the other conections are up to me to maintain and fix etc.... They also told me the exact same thing for cable tv splitters they will fix for free and give tech support only on what they install. Split as many as yiou want they said but we will only fix the 2 we did for free, the others repairs will cost. So it ain't theft of service, not if the service provider says it ain't.

As for movies, software, music, etc.. it is piracy to copy them at least as a muscician I feel that way. But if it is no longer available in a legal way to get it may still be piracy to copy, but morally I don't got a problem with someone flying the old Jolly Rodger, if it is not gonna take money outta someone's pocket who deserves it, but if you can't pay them cause it ain't for sale, well fly the skull and crossbones high and proud. But if it can still be purchased then you owe the creater/owner the bucks. They did the work, it is also the way they earn a living. How would you like to goto work and provide a service for someone and not get paid. So IMHO copying what ain't yours is always piracy, but depending on the situation it might not be wrong morally.

Sean

[housepig]

Is it illegal to invite friends over to watch the DVD's I have bought or listen to my cd's. This would be taking money from the copywrite holder right.

well, are you charging them to come and watch or listen?

if so, then yes.

- housepig

[LanEvo7]

Its an interesting question. I like that line that says "Any unauthorized use, including public performance..." Many schools frequently like to use certain films as teaching material. Elementary schools like to show cartoons from time to time. So are they breaking copyright laws?

[pbhalerao]

Thank you all for the overwhelming response. I think that the majority of you do believe, what I believe.

1. I do not think so. But here is a scenario from where I come. But sometimes I do think that some of my ‘friends’ are trying to save the expense by borrowing from me. I am a movie buff and a collector. None of my friends are. I have over 35 DVDs and 70 VHSs. These numbers may seem paltry to a few of you, but I can’t afford to buy every title and I do not want to buy those that I don’t intend to watch another time. My friends have no collection. So when I ‘lend’ to someone, I am not expecting anything in return. But I will need to be careful and watch out that my list of friends doesn’t become too long.

2. Ditto as above. I always buy the book that I think will enrich my book library. But I have severe reservations against lending to ‘any’ friend. My trouble is ‘how to say no’. I have found the answer by not advertising the fact that I have a certain bestseller in my collection.

3. Public libraries should not be brought into the debate. They are providing a service to the deprived and underprivileged and hence are not pirating.

4. I think I have the right to split my cable connection, as I am not lending it to another person/family. My wife and I always want to watch different programs at the same time. My son wants to watch Cartoon Network most of the times. I do not want fights over cable TV. If the argument is 'pay per TV' then why not 'pay per family member'? That would be more logical. Do we not purchase individual tickets for the movie show?

[defense]

yeah. i hate that. now i can't even see wrestling or movies that come on ppv cuz i got to pay extra for the digital cable and lease the receiver then pay what the ppv event costs.

Not sure where you live, but I can still get plenty of movies on my "box." However, in over a year, I haven't been able to get any "PPV" channels due to the fact that as you mentioned, the cable companies are moving more and more channels to digital. I used to use it ONLY for PPV and all of the Tyson fights, etc...but it's worthless now. I don't watch any movies off it because the quality sucks. I'm too used to DVD.

Anyway, my 2 cents on this topic is that there have been many posts on this forum that have been similar to this one, but I will say that the "laws" may seem screwed up and whacky, but many of them, when you look into them deeply, are not as screwed up as your initial perception would allow you to believe. I think sometimes, and this case is no exception, Laws go overboard. They do that intentionally.

It is obvious that you won't know anyone who gets prosecuted for lending a CD/DVD to their family member or friend, or even making a copy for them. However, play silly and open up shop selling them...and you start making a little extra bread on the side....well noiw you're playin' russian Roulette. If you like to gamble..then be prepared when you finally pull the trigger and that bullet is set in the chamber just waitin' for you.