Film 99% ? need help please

[scottb721]

I'm doing a DVD to SVCD conversion of a 1958 movie.
During the DVD2AVI process it showed in the log the following,
29.970fps and Film 99%

What settings do I need to use in TMPGEnc for this "Film 99%" thing?

What does the "Film 99%" mean ?

Thanks very much in advance.

[Conquest10]

you need to use force film in dvd2avi.

[dbecker]

be more concerned with the fps...at 29.9 it would be ntsc and not ntsc film. that is the difference..ntsc film is 23.9fps

[scottb721]

So do the normal DVD2AVI process then just select "NTSC SVCD" in the wizard , yeah ?
What difference does Force Film do in DVD2AVI ?

[Conquest10]

it keeps the frame rate at 23fps. most dvds are that rate.

[scottb721]

Should I choose force film in DVD2AVI or just leave it alone?

[Conquest10]

yeah. chose force film and save it. then in tmpgenc just encode it at 23 with 3:2 pulldown.

[adam]

If you have forced film enabled in dvd2avi then it will report an NTSC vob as being 23.976fps everytime, if you have forced film turned off it will report it as 29.97fps everytime. Bottom line, ignore what the reported fps is in dvd2avi.

All you need to concern yourself with is the % film. If its 95% or higher then enable forced film and either use the NTSCfilm template in TMPGenc, or make sure and set the output fps to 23.976 and set the encode mode to 3:2 pulldown when playback. This is how almost all NTSC DVDs will be.

On those rare dvds that are not 95% or higher film, turn off forced film. From there you can either encode at 29.97fps interlaced, by using the NTSC template in TMPGenc, or you can perfom an inverse telecine if your source originated as film. Encoding at 29.97fps will yield substantially lower quality video.

[dbecker]

I used do do it that way and the audio would get off or the picture would stutter. I have found that if it is 29.97fps, then i would just go with ntsc(not ntsc film) in the tmpgenc wizard. I have yet to have a movie turn out bad doing that even though many people argue that what conquest10 says would be the only way the movie would turn out and play well on a dvd player. I found it to cause me more problems than fix especially with the audio sync.
I would go his way and if you have audio sync or video problems try it my way. Here's how I do it htpp://entiendo.gotnet.net/ .

[adam]

dbecker, dvd2avi's reporting of 29.97fps or 23.976fps really tells you nothing about the source at all and you cannot use the information in any way to determine how to process or encode your movie.

Most movies are stored as 23.976fps and use pulldown flags to play it back at 29.97fps. If the decoder parses the pulldown flags you get 29.97fps playback. This is what your hardware dvd player would do. If the decoder ignores the pulldown flag then you get 23.976fps playback and this is what your software player would do.

DVD2AVI works in the same way. Changing the forced film setting will determine whether it parses these pulldown flags or not. On the rare case when the movie is actually stored as 29.97fps dvd2avi will simply decimate frames to make the output 23.976fps if you have forced film turned on. Bottom line is that the fps reported by dvd2avi is what it is OUTPUTTING, not what the DVD itself is. Try it out, take any movie and process it with forced film on. You get 23.97fps reported fps. Turn forced film off and you get 29.97fps output. Obviously you cannot use this information for anything other than confirming whether forced film is set or not.

If dvd2avi reports the movie as 95% film than forced film work work everytime, and if it is anything else than it will fail almost everytime. Dvd2avi has other known sync problems, and I have never recommended using it for audio decoding at all. Demuxing the AC3 and using BeSweet or HeadAC3che to encode to mp2 is, in my opinion, the best way to encode your audio. I think your sync problems have nothing to do with the fps of the movie, because like I said, almost all NTSC movies have the same fps...23.976 (ntscfilm).

I STRONGLY recommend avoiding using the NTSC template. This decreases quality greatly for no good reason. If your source is ntscfilm, you should keep it that way.

[scottb721]

OK, I've gone back and redone the DVD2AVI process with Forced Film selected. And I will use the NTSC Film SVCD in TMPG wizard.

Is that correct Adam ?

I must admit that when I tried a sample (not Forced Film d2v file, ie 29.97fps) of the movie using NTSC Film in TMPG, the result had better quality picture that when using just NTSC in the wizard for the same section of movie.

Thanks to all

[dbecker]

alright adam, I am going to give ntsc film another try...I am going to do a section of movie the way I usually do it and try it your way. If you say that it has nothing to do with audio sync than maybe I will go back to the 'correct' way. I will only if I notice a difference in quality. Currently all my movies turn out great, so I have a hard time believing the picture quality will increase...

[adam]

That is correct scottb721 but again, only if dvd2avi reports it as being 95% or higher film.

dbecker. Storing video at 23.97fps and allowing the dvd player to telecine the movie as it plays to 29.97fps is a very common and effective encoding techique. It is so common that it is used on nearly every single commercial NTSC DVD, where applicable. (due to other reasons anime and often tv episodes are pure NTSC.)

23.97fps has roughly 20% less frames than 29.97fps. So at the same bits per second, you have 20% less frames to eat up your bitrate. Now those extra frames have been extrapolated from existing ones, so they are highly redundant so they won't necessarily take up 20% more, but the amount is still substantial. It is estimated that the difference is about 15%. So, ntscfilm should grant you a 15% increase in quality over NTSC, and it takes less time to encode, and it eliminates any possiblity of interlacing artifacts and it is much easier for encoders to analyze accurately. It is essentially a free ride.

Caveat: Mathmatically speaking, ntscfilm is literally at least 15% more efficient and NTSC and should be significantly higher quality. However, if you are already using a high bitrate ie: DVD, or your source is highly compressible, than you are not going to notice much difference. Essentially using ntscfilm is like raising your avg bitrate by about 15%-20%, so if your bitrate is already sufficient then its not going to help much.

[scottb721]

Thanks Adam
DVD2AVI reported "Film 99%" for the DVD in question.

Finally, are you saying that I should use Force Film and "NTSC Film" wizard when doing NTSC discs.
I'm in Australia so most of my DVD's are PAL but it could be easily done for the NTSC discs.

Cheers from Down under

[adam]

Yes that is what I am saying. Of course this only applies to those NTSC DVDs which are 95% or higher film, but this represents the vast majority.

So, if 95% or higher film, use forced film and ntscfilm template.
If not 95% or higher film, turn off forced film and use NTSC template.