Question for the ENCODING PROS!

[TeFLoN]

How do you separate the MAIN MOVIE from a FULL DVD RIP (vobs and all) and frameserve it into CCE? I've only done it from an M2v file after ripping it in IFO mode. I need to know how to do it from FILE mode for the guide I'm using. I know the basics of DVD2AVI and AVISYNTH usage and have done that before. Just need to know how to do it after ripping it in FILE mode.
Basically I'm trying to CCE the main movie and let IC7 do the other stuff and once CCE is done, bring it all together again as one BIG happy VOB family Just don't know how to separate it.
Thx

TeFLoN

[dhluke]

If I get what you trying to say here... You want to take the movie out let's say 2 VTS sets, VTS 1 is the movie, and VTS 2 is the extra/etc. You rip all the files in FILE MODE in DVD Decrypter....

If that's what you want... Then it's sorta simple... DO IC as normal... Then you'll get all the files ready to burn... But you want to replace the movie file with a CCE one.

To do the CCE movie, all you need to do it's get DVD2AVI to make a d2v file for it... Open VTS_01.vob (VTS_0.VOB is the menu usually) and DVD2AVI should load up the rest of the vobs, if it doesn't -- add them manualy.. preview to see if it's the movie... Save project, use VFAPI or AVISYNTH, your choice... Load it up on CCE and encode... Open Maestro or Scenarist and load up your m2v, and ac3 file, and subtitles if you have them already (using Subrip)... If you do subs, then you want to do pulldown... drop for subs, non-drop for the movie... Compile... Get a nice set of vobs-- rename them.... so they match the old vobs... Erase the IC ones, replace them with the CCE ones... Open IFOUpdate and update IFO files, and that should do it...

Seems like a lot but I haven't really mention 30% of all the actual work...



Have fun having a crack at it....

dhluke

[TeFLoN]

Thx for the VERY PROMPT answer Dhluke. Its exactly what i was trying to do. Where i was stuck was at the Frameserve part. I've done it successfully before but just once on American History X. Here is what happened:
When I took the main movie vobs out (vts_01 - vts_09) of Fight Club I ran DVD2AVI on it and created a D2v file. I then created my avs file to use avisynth to frameserve it to CCE. CCE choked on it this time. It just "went away". I thought maybe it was because it didnt have that huge M2v file there and just had a set of vts files. I also demuxed the audio tracks with dvd2avi and those are not as straight forward as demuxing using dvd decrypter. I assume the biggest one is my AC3 6Ch one though.
My workaround was just to IFO mode to an m2v file and demux my tracks there, then do all the stuff you said, and add it to the rest of the movie that I ripped in FILE mode.

What do you think?
TeF

[TeFLoN]

Well,
CCE choked again and crashed then I added the resample audio line in the AVIsynth notepad frameserver and it accepted it....and I dont even have an Athlon. weird. So i guess I didnt need to rip it again in IFO mode anyway. Oh well

[dhluke]

You can always use VFAPI which will create an AVI file that you can load into CCE and encode...

dhluke

[adam]

You can use VFAPI or even Virtual Dub to frameserve to CCE but it is not recommended. You will have to do the YUV->RGB conversion which takes considerable time and decreases quality, albeit probably not by any noticable amount. Still, keeping your footage YUV throughout the whole process can increase your encoding speed by up to 30%.

BTW: When doing this make sure that DVD2AVI is set to YUV output and that you use 0-255 luminance level in CCE.

[TeFLoN]

Ok adam, I'll try that. Not sure those are the settings ive seen in other guides. I've used 16 - 255 luminence on my CCE encoding (I've only done it 2 times) and it looked good to me. I have always used YUV though. Is that luminence setting going to ruin my movies? Am i missing something?

[TeFLoN]

I just want to confirm this:
I successfully backed up a SINGLE PGC movie "FIGHT CLUB" with the IC7/CCE method and I must admit...it ROCKS. However, the party was over when I fired up "PULP FICTION". It is MULTI PGC with 2 angles! I'm trembling in fear reading the UBERLIGHT guide and then a thought occurred to me....Can't I just use the same method I just did on it that I did with FIGHT CLUB? RIP with Decrypter/Demux with DVD2avi/IC7 the menus and extras/CCE the main/ then bring it all together again? What do you pro's think? Will this method work with MULTIPLE PGC or am I doomed to failure?

TeF

[TeFLoN]

bump

[adam]

Ok adam, I'll try that. Not sure those are the settings ive seen in other guides. I've used 16 - 255 luminence on my CCE encoding (I've only done it 2 times) and it looked good to me. I have always used YUV though. Is that luminence setting going to ruin my movies? Am i missing something?

It won't ruin your movies, but your colors will be a little washed out. Basically, tv's use a luminance level of 16-235. This is opposed to the "whole" scale which is 0-255 which is what pc's use. Camera's essentially have a wider dynamic range than what tv's can display, so at least as far as the tv is concerned, some blacks are "blacker than black" and some whites are "whiter than white." So what you do is encode with the 16-235 scale and it essentially clips out these unsupported luma ranges.

So when dealing with DVDs its really a quite simple approach. Obviously the DVD is going to be encoded with the correct luminance level, 16-235. In DVD2AVI, if you use YUV output it has no choice but to leave the luminance level as is. If you use RGB output then if set to pc scale it will convert to 0-255, and if set to tv scale it will leave it as 16-235.

When encoding with CCE you always want to leave it to YUV output and use avisynth to frameserve. This is done because skipping the conversion to RGB prevents quality loss, albeit very little, and also decreasing encoding time substantially. So now you have kept your footage at 16-235, the same as the source.

Here is where the confusion comes in, and why I think so many guides incorrectly say to set the luminance level to 16-235. Setting it to 16-235 changes the scale, essentially it clips out the outer edges. So if your source was correct to begin with, you have just screwed it up. You have cut out some of your dynamic range and now your black isn't as black as it could be, and the same goes for white. Most people assume that since the desired result is 16-235, that this is what you should set it to in the encoder, but this is incorrect. The setting is more of a means to an end, rather than the actual end, if that makes any sense. What you should do instead is set it to 0-255. This stretches the scale out but the values themselves have essentially stayed the same. So basically if you have a source with a correct luminance level, like a DVD, then use 0-255 so that the values don't change. You should only use 16-235 on a source with non-standard luminance values like something you filmed yourself so that you compress the luma back to spec....BUT realize that DV is an exception. DV records in the 16-235 scale already, but depending on the codecs you use in processing your video the scale can change. Basically you have to be careful in every step you take to ensure that your luminance level stays the same throughout.

I know that what I say contradicts most guides but I have done alot of testing on this. The BEST way to simulate improper luminance values is to crop only half of your borders from your movie, and of course add those borders back in. So now you have added some borders which will be true black, yet retained the other half of the borders which will actually be encoded. Set DVD2AVI to YUV output and set CCE to 16-235 luminance level. You will clip out the outer edges of your luma scale and your black will not be "true" black anymore. After encoding master it to VCD, SVCD, DVD, whatever and play it on your tv. The bottom half of the borders should appear somewhat grey next to the top borders, which shows you how far off the color is. Some DVD players actually don't conform to spec and in these cases this test just goes out the window, but on my player and a few others I have been able to clearly see when the luminance level was set incorrectly.

[adam]

Sorry for the rant, I'll just break it down.

If you use CCE:

Preferably set dvd2avi to YUV output, frameserve with avisynth, and then use 0-255 luminance level in CCE. If for some reason you need to use VFAPI or VirtualDub to frameserve, then set dvd2avi to RGB output and tv scale. Again, use 0-255 in CCE.

If you use TMPGenc:

Set DVD2AVI to RGB output and pc scale. Now encode normally in TMPGenc.

Alternatively, though for no particular reason, you could set dvd2avi to tv scale instead and then check the "Output YUV Data as basic YCbCr not CCIR601" option on TMPGenc's quantize matrix tab.

[TeFLoN]

Wow Adam,
You definitely broke it down for me bud! LOL THX!

Since your so well versed let me ask another quick question:

If I have a MULTI PGC disc with multiple angles in the MAIN PGC, is there any way around using those INCREDIBLY complicated guides on Doom9 and UBERGUIDE using Scenarist etc....?? They simply blow me away.

I just want to RIP the ENTIRE movie, use IC7 to lower the size of all the extras and leave movie at 100%, and do the ole' (dvd2avi/avisynth/CCE/Maestro) on the main movie and bring it all back together again with IFOUPDATE.

Does that sound feasible?

I tried it kinda on PULP FICTION but when I demuxed the audio with DVD2AVI, later on Maestro choked on it. I figured the multi pgc stuff was the blame. Im not a DVD2AVI expert either. I know it cant handle DTS audio unless you use version 1.8 something, so I used the AC3 one. Also, that particular movie is weird in the intro and I'm not sure the vts_0 had something to do with it. When I separate the main movie to use CCE on it I take vts_1 through whatever, always have... I leave vts_0 behind. Oh well, tell me what you think if you can. Thx
TeF

[adam]

Well I am sure you are more of an expert in this area than I am. I have only fairly recently bought a dvd burner and haven't yet had the time to read many guides or do much experimentation.

Sorry but I really can't help in this regard at all except to say that I use DoItFast4u to do all of the demuxing and initial processing of my files. Its alot faster and easier than trying to do it manually with dvd2avi.

To be honest with you, I am quite enjoying being a newbie all over again

[flaninacupboard]

Adam, as you seem to have all the answers....
Capturing in DV, should give a 16-235 source, dumping this straight to CCE i want to use 16-235, right? if i frameserve through TMPGenc and VFAPI (for NR resize clip etc.) then in TMPGenc i check the "out put in...." and let CCE be 16-235.....right?