two planes crash in new york trade towers

[leera2]

I feel the need to bring this to peoples attention. The recent terrorist attacks in the US were horrific, but I can't help agreeing with Sefy's thoughts. America has not fallen victim to anything like this before and terrorism was something that happened elsewhere. I live in the UK, and would like to ask any Americans on this forum their views on why there is funding & support fot the IRA in America ?
I am not trying to tar every American with the same brush,
but the recent attacks wil hopefully make these individuals sit up realise the true horror of terrorism ( Irish roots or not, by funding the IRA you are killing inocent people).

Lee..

[lafamar]

I'm a brazilian citizen and also some brazilians died in sep/11/2001 in N.York city. Brazil's people are so sad too.
God save all of us!!!

[Sefy]

d_hitman, in about 6 months ago, on American Television, there was a survery of what the citizens of the US think about Israel and it's actions, 60% said WE are the bad people, and all from TV information, not from actually being here and witnessing the truth for their own eyes.

haq202, I would be surprised, extremly surprised actually, considering the Islamic religion does not even have democracy, and if someone dares say something or do something not with the cause, after all, where did J'had come from exactly ?? then any Arab who helped an Israeli, that Arab is murdered by his own people, this is facts.

d_hitman, i've lost trust in the human spirit, maybe the individual, but the individual does not seem to count anymore, he is a mere piece which can be thrown out, and why didn't you include christians, after all, Hebrews (jewish is a name invented by christians to insult hebrew's and blame them for the death of jesus) is the original religion, both Christian AND Muslim have taken their religion from US, and although I hate religion because I find it to be used more for bad then for good, give credit where credit is due.

xzarkad, where exactly do you take your numbers from ? TV ? do you live here, do you SEE what happens in the streets here ? or are you getting it from CNN ? I live here, a boy who went out of school for a lunch break, was found brutaly and savagly lynched by a bunch of arab cowards that murdered a 16 year old boy, gee, when did you hear about a bunch of Israelis even the most fanatic ones ever doing such a thing to any arab ?

When I said erase the whole race, I don't believe in it either, and I don't believe in too extreme actions, but i'm sick and tired of both Israel and the US sitting as duck hunts for Arab terrorism around the globe, and we don't want to "go down to THEIR level" because we are more humanitariam and we believe in human rights! well, sorry to spoil it, your enemy doesn't!

And like I said, nobody cares untill it effects them too, and that is the biggest pity of them all!

[pacmania_2001]

I personally believe that too many people dont know that much about the Israeli's and that they are too often stereotyped as middle east loonies even though they are one of Americas allies

[xzarkad]

Sefy, first of all:
I thought New York was attacked, not Israel.
Secondly:
I thought that Bin Laden could be responsible. And I did not know that he lives in Palestina. So, why are you bringing the Israeli's in this thing?

I get my numbers from TV and newspapers from different countries, so I try to have a wide overview.
Where did you get your numbers? From personal viewing?

I know that Arabs have killed Israelies. I know that Israelies have killed Arabs. Who is right?
Ask this question to the mother which child was killed, regardless if she is Jew or Arab....

Can we now leave Israel out of this tragedy?

[dangermouse]

kdiddy, and everyone else who sees the following passage anywhere...

"In the City of God there will be a great thunder, Two brothers torn apart by Chaos, while the fortress endures, the great leader will succumb" , "The third big war will begin when the big city is burning" - Nostradamus 1654"

Its FAKE. Nostradamus has made many predictions about the future, but that isn't one of them. That was actually started by ?N.Marshall? on his website, as an example of something cryptic that can be applied to almost any situation. Its gotten out of hand and people think its actually from Nostradamus himself. Whats worse is that other versions of it are floating around, where people tack on crap like "Metal bird hits two towers" or something like that, where no actual quatrain like that was ever written. Basically, if you want actual Nostradamus quatrains, go to a trusted website, and ignore a lot of the crap thats being spouted around.

[d_hitman]

************************************************** ********
d_hitman, in about 6 months ago, on American Television, there was a survery of what the citizens of the US think about Israel and it's actions, 60% said WE are the bad people, and all from TV information, not from actually being here and witnessing the truth for their own eyes.
************************************************** ********

Was that a scientific survey or just something conducted over TV? But granting that this survey results are true and correct you think it is righteous to rant and rave against America right now. Don't you think you are adding insult to injury with your generalizations? Sefy, I tell you if all Israelis rant and rave as you do that 60% may well increase to 90%!

You think Israelis have a monopoly of suffering? For a moderator you don't seem to be moderate at all!

oh btw, thanks for the reminder about the term Jew. You are correct on that. Suffice it to say that I never meant for it to be insulting.

[vanillabox]

I agree with many of the things that Sefy has been saying in regaurd to the general US populations Views of the Middle East. It is very sad that it took a disaster of this magnitude to open the eyes of my fellow Americans to the EVIL acts of the Muslims targeted to the ONLY Democratic state in the Middle East, Isreal. I myself have friends in Isreal. I have a great deal of admiration for the way the people of Isreal do not bow to terror, and seek to destroy it when it show it's ugly head. People must understand the the J'had (Holy War) that many muslims believe in means that if you do not believe in exactly what the leaders of the J'had believe in is that you should be destroyed. It is time that every peace loving country, and person around the world open thier eyes and do what needs to be done...DESTROY EVIL. Do this not for the act of vengance. Do this for the fact that if we don't we will be destroyed ourselves.

PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: vanillabox on 2001-09-13 10:18:57 ]</font>

[Sefy]

xzarkad, New York wasn't the only one attacked, the entire freedom of the planet has been attacked, those aren't just New Yorker's who died there, if i'm not mistaken 400 british, Scotish, Australians, Tourists from all over the planet, that makes it an attack an EVERYONE!

and unfortunatly, the hijackers being Arabs from terroristic nations, and unless i'm mistaken the US was supposdly attacked BECAUSE it helped Israel, so this whole thing is to make the public despise and hate Israelies even more, which as I can see is doing wonders and working.

Lets face it, the whole world hated Israel then (maybe a few individuals who doesn't talk about it don't hate Israel) and the American Intelligence as you can propably see isn't really among the greatest, and CNN's reported in Israel, gee, he is of Arab background, he wouldn't disturt the truth now would he ?

On the other hand, Israeli Intelligence is amongst the BEST in the whole world! and I get the numbers from ISRAELI news, which show BOTH sides, like an example, you see an Israeli soldier shooting a 6 year old kid, what you do DONT see, is that KID's DAD behind him using him as COVER while he uses a GUN to shot at Israeli soliders! did you know THAT part ?? or was it too hurrible and rate PG-TRUTH in the US ? did you see the Kids in Schools ? no, of course not and if you did, maybe once, and you propably didn't believe it, maybe Israel is behind that too.

Yes, I know Arabs kills Jews and Jews kill Arabs, you know what the diffrence is ? they MURDER, we try to defend ourselfs! what's the difference ?? I can't believe you don't know by now.

d_hitman, I see you posted before me, let me please apologise, I have no desire to add to the wounds of America, I and believe me the entire Israel population (not the Arabs, they are still celebrating) was in mourning for the terrible and hurrible losses caused by this, I don't even know how to call it, travesty! this horror that has happened! and even NOW!! see how some people thing, it's all Israel's fault, we are to blame, and if more people believe in it, then it is the end of civilizations! cause we didn't start the war, we did ALL we were asked, America told us to give back territoris, we GAVE!, they told us to back down, we BACKED DOWN, and what did we want ? what did we get ?? we wanted PEACE, what did we GET ?? bombings! murdering, butchering, and what did the American people tell us to do ? take it, it will be over, don't ruin the peace treaty! that's what the US told Israel, they would not even allow us to have the basic moral of DEFENDING ourselfs! and although as soon as i've heard of all these hurrible news on TV, i've messaged every single friend or someone I consider a friend that lives in the US, and that's over 400 people on my ICQ list, and i've send my regards and my condulances, and if I had insulted or added wood to the fire, that was not my intention, although I know I seem extreme, and I propably am right now, but this is the TIME to ACT, if the Arabs keep doing this and getting away with it, do you think the free nations of the world will still have the power to resist them ?? we have that power NOW, it is time to put an END to this terrorism!
_________________
Email me for faster replies!

Best Regards,
Sefy Levy,
Certified Computer Technician.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Sefy on 2001-09-13 10:32:04 ]</font>

[zzyzzx]

[d_hitman]

vanillabox ... I am not a Muslim and will never be one. But this one I know : the whole concept of J'had has been abused and misused by Muslims. Some but not all.

Secondly, it is no lonegr a question of whether we have to do something about this evil. It is already a question of HOW to go about dealing with this Evil. If the tactic of tooth for a tooth and an eye for an eye is effective then pray do tell me why is it that the enmity and fighting between Israelites and Arabs have persisted for centuries?

Generalizing, assuming things --- these lead to defeat not victory. Remember, if Muslim fanatics were capable of killing Anwar Sadat, zealots in Israel also executed one of their own Prime Ministers. These are the kind of people who I think are our real enemies. The unthinking, narrowminded and bigoted type of guys.

[Bullworth]

First of all pray for the victims and for the whole world for what has happened.
It is not Israel's fault what happened. The US has been backing them for decades because otherwise they'd probably woudln't even exist today with most arab nations against them...look at their track record though and you know they would've gone down hard.
Second, Bush was not hiding. It is the responsibility of the SS to protect the president immediately after an emergency and let him decide what to do after the immediate threat has been evaluated.
Instead of attacking each other over these meaningless opinions we should stand side by side to show that America unites under tragedy as it has always done.

[zzyzzx]

[Sefy]

d_hitman, J'had, is Death to Jews, what else are you transletting it to ? let Jews Live ? what do you mean by misuse ? isn't obvious what it means ?

Bullworth, I agree with you on everything but ONE, Israel has fought the ENTIRE arabs nations ALONE, we did not recieve a single help in the wars in the 60 or 70 or 80, and when the Americans in the so called Gulf "War" gave us those pathetic patriots which didn't work half the time, and managed to get themselfs killed even before liftup to help, i'd say Israel has been doing pretty good on it's own, it's only when they started telling us not to kill, and to stop defend ourselfs against Arab attacks, that's when the whole mess started, if Israel didn't blow Sadam Hosein's Nucklear Plant (and got screamed for doing it too!) do you really think we would be standing here arguing ??

But as i've said, you ARE correct, we, not just Americans and Israelies, but the ENTIRE freedom loving people should STAND UP and UNITE against the Terrorism of ANY kind!! not JAIL them! but to KILL the Terrorists!! Jail would be like Paradise for them! they only live to kill, that is what they are being taought from young age, to hate and to kill, and you cannot negotiate with TERRORISTS! and the US never negotiated with terrorists, and it should Annihilate them all! with the help of the entire free world! either we kill them now, or they WILL kill us when they get the power to do so! FACT is FACT!

[PORNOST4R]

Sorry Sefy, but You are getting all your informations also from the TV as we do. And I lived in a country, which was in the worse situation than your homeland. And I know what's propaganda. And we are all under its influence, but you have to accept the thruth that the people on the both sides are dying, and the that many people on other side think the way you do. And they also want peace. You can't say, we are all good, they are all bad. And if you say that, you are becoming a radical.

P.

p.s.: sorry because of my (bad) english

[Sefy]

I've never said they are all bad, and we are all good, god knows that their biggest help to destroy us CAME from US, not from the USA, but from idiots inside Israel, that wanted peace at any condition and they STILL do, and believe me when I say I know how many have died, cause I saw it myself, I saw all the dead bodies from Bombs in our Town Centers, in an area that is 15 to 20min drive from my own house! if I wasn't in Australia at that time, i'd propably be another statistic, and nobody would write you guides for DVD Conversions

[xzarkad]

Okay I agree it is possible that a background of the wars in and around Israel could be the cause of this.
On the other hand: If Bin Laden is responsible for this, then his hatred is against the US. That started with the US attack on Bagdad.

I have seen a 10 min. footage of the 6 year old which was shot. His father did not have a gun, and was lying over his kid to protect him.

Do you know the difference between subjective and objective?
Some-one standing in the middle of all is mostly subjective, and sees mostly one side. Some-one looking from a distance is mostly objective. At the moment you are not looking from a distance.

But please note this: I do not agree with Arab attacks on Israeli's. I do not see it as an attack against jewish people, but against human/humanity.

Neiter do I agree with Israeli attacks against Arabs. Although you might disagree: they are also humans.

I do not tolerate radical Muslims, Arabs, Jews etc. etc.

Please do not tell me that you know more about it. Arabs grow up with hatred against Jews, and Jews grow up with hatred against Arabs. What will you tell your children? The same thing you wrote on this site? Then they will also grow up with hatred. Hatred caused this big catastrophy to happen!

What are we doing now? Something terrible has happened. The guilty persons/nation has to be punished. But first of all we need to know who did it......

[d_hitman]

Sefy,

From the dictionary:

ji.had n [Ar jihad] (1869) 1: a holy war waged on behalf of Islam as a religious duty 2: a crusade for a principle or belief

And when I say it has been abused and misused I mean some Muslim fanatics have been redifining what is evil as holy and have misled other Muslims to follow their twisted commands and edicts - not just against Israelis but against other people of different persuasions.

As I have said Sefy - you may have suffered as a people but you are not alone. And because of that do not expect to have a monoply of righteousness and wisdom.

And as a moderator it may help our site if you tone down your rantings and ravings against Arabs, Americans and everybody else who do not share your views.

If you persist I would not be surprised if one of these days you begin chanting Death to Intel lovers!

[Sefy]

xzarkad, the 10 min shot you saw was AFTER the kid was hurt, not the before, of course they would not show you, or any other nations of the world how the fater was using that boy as a shield while he was shooting at the soldiers, to the CAMERAS you see him knealing over the kid's body, oh, almost forgot, WHAT THE HELL WAS A KID DOING IN A BATTLE ZONE???
or lets go to what started this hurrible slaughters, do you even REMEMBER the two lost UNARMED Israeli Soliders (18yo, 19yo) who were LYNCHED to DEATH and beyond recognition!! by Arabs!! do you DENY these events ??

Whenever Israeli goes on attack after it has been terrorized, it does selective pin-point targets, and it TELLS the people to LEAVE the buildings before it attacks, did the Palestinians tell anyone in the Twin Towers to leave cause they are going to bring it down ? no, cause unlike us, they have no morals!

And I WILL tell you I know more about this, cause I live HERE, in the MIDDLE of this terrorism on a daily basis, the US had it one time, sure it was a hurrible one time, devastating and shocking, but we have it DAILY! we live in FEAR, I don't know if i'll go on a bus to work and someone who cares about me will find me DEAD after the bus blow up!

I do not Tolerate Radicals just much like you, even worse, I hate Religous Jews! sometimes I wish they will put all the Fanatic Religous People of all religons, including jews! and kill them or let them all kill themselfs! cause THEY are the ones who are destroying us all!

Israeli's are NOT being tauoght to HATE, they LEARN to hate from what they see and feel on their OWN skin!, Arabs teach their kids from YOUNG age to HATE and KILL for the objective!

I WILL TELL YOU I know more! cause I LIVE HERE, where do you live ??? jewish/hebrews have been chased all over the planet, in all generations, if it wasn't Arabs, it was Hitler, or are you amongst those who say that the holocaust, that 6 million jews who died never happened ? that we invented that part of history ? I can almost say, Jews, have suffered throughout the ages! and yes, propably number 1 in the whole planet! although i'm positive we aren't the only ones, as all minorities have suffered!

"a holy war waged on behalf of Islam as a religious duty" do you even know what you just said ? you just admited that it's in their DUTY to have a WAR against ALL religons.

Finaly I get to quote you
_________________
Email me for faster replies!

Best Regards,
Sefy Levy,
Certified Computer Technician.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Sefy on 2001-09-13 11:19:26 ]</font>

[Sefy]

Bullworth is right, we should all unite, and stop fighting amongst ourselfs, but as long as people blame Israel, and tell me what they don't know and haven't seen in their own eyes, I will defend the name of Israel, and if you see TV right now, as I'm watching BBC News, Sky News, and Local Israeli News, you'll see the Arabs are ALREADY preparing for WARS! they are training RIGHT NOW! this isn't fiction, this is truth, stop ignoring it.

I may be a moderator, but i'm also human, and I have human rights like everyone else, and I don't think some of you can blame Israel and expect me to seat down and take it and shut up.

But I WILL apologise, cause I DO have dignity, and I am giving you an official apology to all the Americans and everyone else who believes I have spoken badly of, I don't want war, but if it's way THEY want, then it's about time they get their wishes, and the USA should find the guilty party, and with the UN and NATO and Israel's help, i'm sure we can wipe out terror for good.

[d_hitman]

"a holy war waged on behalf of Islam as a religious duty" do you even know what you just said ? you just admited that
it's in their DUTY to have a WAR against ALL religons.

You quoted not me Sefy but Merriam Webster. Sorry to disappoint you. And nowhere does it say "against ALL religions" and as I have said it has been twisted - by some Muslims themselves - Muslims who happen to have been condemned by their fellow Muslims.

On the other hand - trust me - as somebody who is neither an Israeli nor an Arab. You do project an image of somebody who is capable of piloting a plane and crashing it against innocent civilians - with all your rantings about killing them all now!

oh btw, if you believe that not all Arabs are bad what do you propose to do with the good and innocent ones?

[d_hitman]

Sefy, count me out of the ranks of those blaming Israel. and btw, I never noticed anybody in this site trying to blame Israel. Is there one? If so he is sadly wrong justas it is wrong to rant and arave against ALL Arabs.

Okay?

[PORNOST4R]

Sefy, that's a little bit too much. I think You overreacted.
And btw, You know as much as I do. You live in Isreal, and You saw the war. I lived in Bosnia and I also know, what the war is. I saw the people dying in the front of me, when I was 13. And I was watching that for 4 years. Every single day. Than I left Bosnia. For good. I lost a lot of relatives during the war. Most of them civilians. I saw concentration camps. You remember these??? German made them the first. Serbs accapted this idea. And killed 200 000 people. 15-20 from my familiy, hundreds of my friends ... And don't tell me, that You know more than anyone else here.
And at the same time, I tried to be normal, not to hate Serbs, but to hate the people who did that. And how not to hate the people who killed 10 000 children, who killed pregnant women, who ... But I never hated the Serbs. I hate the people who were shooting, who were killing, but I will never be able to hate the whole nation.
And I am able to have serb friends. And my kids will be able to do the same. And I hope even more.

P.

[d_hitman]

PORNOSTAR - that's the spirit! You r one admirable porno star!

[Sefy]

d_hitman, me ? fly a plane ? well, nice theory you got there, problem is, first I hate flying, i've got a fear of hights , secondly, I oppouse of violance, and like i'm sure most of you, I condem it! and what do I suppose to do with all the innocent ones ? the same thing the Arabs did to the innocent ones in the Twin Towers, i'm not saying just blow them all up, if the US and Israel will work together, I guarntee you that there will be pin-point accuracy of assaults, with least to no casualties on our sides, and the minimal damage to the "innocent" on their side, cause Israel always warns before it blows something up, but in this case, they should take down all the Terrorists, and most importantly, their leaders.

PORNOST4R, I apologise if I seem overreacted, but this whole situation (the attacks on the US) are not overreaction, and the free world needs to unite and destroy the terrorists now while it can still do so!, I am terribly sorry to hear about your family and friends, and all I can do is give you my condulances and regards, that kind of pain cannot be erased, but what I said, was not directed at you, it was directed at xzarkad, who seem to think he knows more then me about what is going on in my own country, I don't say I know more then you, or more then any one else, but I do say I know what is going on in MY country better then any outsider who watches TV, i've lost alot of friends too, but you say you had losses of thusands, there were 6 millions jews dead in concentration camps, but of course, this is past history and is not relevent, but what I am saying is, jews were and still are prosecutated and hated all over the nations, and the worst part is, it's not just by Arabs.

But again I will apologise for overreacting, this is a hurrible situation, and I just hope that the measure of attack will be as hurrible as the cause, or the Arabs will never understand that we don't take bullshit, none of us! if they want war, and if you had watched Sky News and BBC World, they were showing the Arabs training now! right this moment while the USA is hurt, they are already preparing for war, they are not grieving with the rest of us.

[d_hitman]

################################################## ##########
d_hitman, me ? fly a plane ? well, nice theory you got there, problem is, first I hate flying, i've got a fear of hights, secondly, I oppouse of violance, and like i'm sure most of you, I condem it!
################################################## ##########

You sure about that? Whew that makes me breath easier!
Just hope you'd still be willing to help me with technical problems even if I do not agree with the tactics that you seem to be proposing 4 the problem at hand.

[Sefy]

If I ever managed to help, it was my honour, i'm really not a violent person, you can ask anyone that knows me in person, but i'm sure alot of the american people are as angry as I am, and think we should act now, before there will be another disaster like this.

May GOOD win over EVIL, cause this isn't the same kind of evil you've seen before.

[d_hitman]

Sefy, before I go to sleep ... and if it's any consolation I come from a place where Bin Laden's guys have burned whole villages, bombed shopping malls and beheaded innocent civilians.

C? you are NOT alone!

[Sefy]

Sleep Tight, and more important, I hope to see you all here, living! and with any luck, i'll be alive too, i've been getting threats from Arabs on ICQ, and apparantly all my Israeli friends as well, lets hope the right thing that should be done, whatever it is, will be done, hard and quick!

Take care EVERYONE!!

[Death Knight]

first of all, I'm sorry to hear about the attacks on the US. second, I want to say that I'm am a normal civilian in one the arab countries and I don't agree on most of the bull that sefy been saying.

eg.

Whenever Israeli goes on attack after it has been terrorized, it does selective pin-point targets, and it TELLS the people to LEAVE the buildings before it attacks, did the Palestinians tell anyone in the Twin Towers to leave cause they are going to bring it down ? no, cause unlike us, they have no morals!

you think so? then why do Palestinian civilians die in Israeli attacks? if I was told that there will be an attack on a place, I wouldn't stay there, and no one would stay.


Israeli's are NOT being tauoght to HATE, they LEARN to hate from what they see and feel on their OWN skin!, Arabs teach their kids from YOUNG age to HATE and KILL for the objective!

I didn't learn to hate in school. none of my teachers said anything about hating Israelis inany class that I remember. and I went to a normal public school.

and unfortunatly, the hijackers being Arabs from terroristic nations

you should treat people as indivisuals, not groups by thier race. if some arabs did a bad thing, that doesn't mean all of them will.

I oppouse of violance

what about the idea of killing all the arabs? where did that go?

xzarkad, the 10 min shot you saw was AFTER the kid was hurt, not the before, of course they would not show you, or any other nations of the world how the fater was using that boy as a shield while he was shooting at the soldiers, to the CAMERAS you see him knealing over the kid's body, oh, almost forgot, WHAT THE HELL WAS A KID DOING IN A BATTLE ZONE???

I have lots of s*** to say about these sayings of yours. the father wasn't carring any gun. on which tv you saw that? Israeli tv? YES they were trying to show you that they didn't do anything wrong, so they calimd that he was carring a gun and using the boy as a shield. the Israelis were shooting at them without even looking. the father got treated in my country, and he said that he was going to the market to buy some stuff for his family with his boy, but the place suddenly turned to a battle field when the soliders started shooting at people who were throwing rocks at them.

or lets go to what started this hurrible slaughters, do you even REMEMBER the two lost UNARMED Israeli Soliders (18yo, 19yo) who were LYNCHED to DEATH and beyond recognition!! by Arabs!! do you DENY these events ??

well, what soliders are supposed to do for thier country? die for it of course, they ar soldiers.


peace. might get back to see what u'll say.