Capture/Convert/Burn, what is more import for VCD quality

[jimtseng]

The VCD I made have a pretty bad quality, I don't know what can I do to improve the quality, on Capture? on Convertion? or on Burning?

I use Ulead Studio 5 to capture video from my DV to AVI file,
then use TMPGEnc to convert the AVI to MPEG-1 files,
then use VCDEasy to burn the VCD.

I know VCD's video quality is limited. I have many VCD movies, I know what the quality can be, and I think its bitrate is only standard (1150). Then it must be something wrong of how I made the VCD.

I know the TMPGEnc is the best conversion tool you can get for free, I didn't use the conversion tool from Ulead Studio 5. And I don't think any other burning tool will make any different in my situation. So what is my problem right here?

I have another capture software ImageMixer came with my new Sony DV, but it cut off the capture after 20 minutes because of the size of the AVI file.

So do I need a better Capture software? or Encoding software? or some setup I can do within TMPGEnc other than changing the bitrate?

Thanks for all the help.

Jim

[hustbaer]

hi!

you are right when you say that using another burning/autohring software will not make the quality better.

after the file is encoded the quality will not change anymore, since the mpeg streame is ready and will not be altered... just burned.

the most important thing for encoding good-looking video-cds is the quality of the source material.

now, as far as i know, capturing DV is just like saving a digital stream from the camera to disk.
if i'm correct here, and you capture in native DV format, the capturing-software will make no difference.

so the only points left are pre-processing (filtering, resizing etc.) and encoding.

on the pre-processing side you can do something with tmpgenc.
if the source-material is noisy (which is very likely) then the "noise reduction" filter can help.
if the source is interlaced, you can try the de-interlace filter.
if you have black borders you can try to "crop" the image so that the whole screen is filled - those black borders (especially when they have sharp edges and are not very big) can considerabely cost bitrate, hence making the quality worse.

when in comes to encoding, just try different settings for the encoder.
in the case of tmpgenc, the interesting parts are the motion-search-precision and all "special settings" in the advanced tab.

you could also try to use different video-cd templates.

hope this helps a little
bye,
--hustbaer

[jimtseng]

Hi Hustbaer,

Thanks you for your advice, I'll try it.

Jim

[Gazorgan]

Noise filter and de-interlace. The 2d filter in vdub is pretty good. There are some others, but remember that noise really eats into your bitrate, for VCD/SVCD/DVD it doesn't matter; Noise is a bitrate killer.

[jimtseng]

Hi Gazorgan, Hustbaer,

Thanks for your answer.
I add noise reduction and deinterlace to the TMPGEnc, it works better for the quality now. But additional problem comes up, when the camera move in the movie, it looks like "step" moving, it didn't move smoothly. Do you know what did I do wrong?

How about "Ghost reduction" and "Sharpen edge", what will that do to help? Also there is something called "Motion search precision", I tried all of them and combination, I can't really tell the difference by looking at all of them.

Thanks

Jim

[hustbaer]

hi jimtseng!

what kind of source is this exactly?
do you capture directly from the camera or do you use the camera to capture TV stuff?
what is the frame-rate of the camper and what is the framerate you use for capture?

when camera-motion is jerky most likely the frame-rate of the source and destination do not match.
like when you have source=25fps (PAL) and destination (output) =30fps (NTSC).
or source=24fps (FILM) and dest=25fps(PAL).
or whatever.

also, when you capture any movies from NTSC (TV, NTSC DVD etc.) you should select 24fps framerate...

there is also a filter in tmpg called inverse telecive, but it depends on the source that you are converting wether to use it or not.
basically is is only suitable for movies (24fps) that were encoded as NTSC (30fps).
it reverses the 24fps->30fps convertion, and as a result you get a 24fps video-stream in which the motion looks smooth again.

the ghost-reduction-filter is only suitable for stuff captured from TV where you have a static ghost-image.
means a "shadow" that is always visible (also in no-motion parts).
the origin of such ghost images are signal-reflections, sometimes from mountains nearby, or within the cable.

sharpen edge is like it says - it sharpens edges.
only suitable for high bitrate encodings for blurry sources because the sharper the edges the more bitrate is needed.

bye,
--hustbaer

[jimtseng]

Hi hustbaer,

The source is just the 8mm tape I taped from the DV for my daughter's birthday, what frame-rate should that be used? Both capture and encode was set at 29.97.

After I add the "noise reduction", "deinterlace" also the 2-pass VBR with 1150-2500 avg 1500 bitrate, plus highest quality motion search. And I write the mpeg file to a VCD using VCDEasy. The mpeg file views ok on the computer, but when I watch the VCD on a DVD player on TV, the audio will interrupt .5 second for every 5 second. Did I do something wrong here, this problem was not there for the mpeg file plays on computer and the old no-option-selected VCD.

Is there another software that you can recommand that will make good VCD in my case, I was just trying to put home-maked video to good quality VCD for TV viewer, no special effect/title/menu is need.

Thanks,

Jim

[txpharoah]

Noise reduction never hurts, but I'd not deinterlace it unless you have lines on screen. You drop quality with deinterlace if it's not needed. Up your bitrate to CBR 1856. That is the max allowed by VCD, 1150 is the minimum. Anything lower or higher makes it SVCD or XVCD. Always use CBR for true VCD.

Drop you motion search to "low" (it does NOT mean lower quality, read my other posts for an explanation of this).

Make sure your GOPs are set to 1I, 2B, 2P with a max of 6. This will help motion look better. I can explain if needed, but that's another book. Close them if it helps, but usually CD format video is left with open GOPs.

Nero has a great VCD template that I use all the time, even has menu options and such. Not a fan of VCDEasy, but that can work too. If you think it is causing some problems, then dump it.

TMPGEnc is one of the best encoders for MPEG video, so stick with it. The PLUS version is best.

On the audio error, I get that too sometimes. Its a bad capture usually, bad file markers, etc. I've found workaround by opening the audio in SoundForge of BeSweet from the source, then adding it separately to the video with the MPEG tools (multiplex) of TMPGenc. Of course, be sure to demultiplex your video and audio from the original video encode to avoid overlapped audio from two sources.

Just redo the file with 1856K CBR, and be sure to leave your audio at 44.1 and 192 or 224 quality, and it most likely will turn out fine. Use the audio trick if it still sounds bad.

[Cornucopia]

No, No, No.

@txpharoah:

VCD has only 1 bitrate 1150kbps, CBR. Nothing higher, nothing lower. ALL ELSE is XVCD. Won't go into SVCD or XSVCD, since we weren't talking about that anyway

I've ALWAYS had better encodes either with HIGH (Slow) or HIGHEST (Slowest), as opposed to LOW.

While your bitrate will be marginally more efficient with Open GOPS, you gain greater compatibility with more players if you use Closed GOPS. I use Closed GOPS 80% of the time, with the MAX recommended GOP length (18NTSC, 15PAL). Using longer GOP lengths will improve the efficiency anyway. I do this for a living, and my clients LOVE my encodes, many of them DV->VCD.

Never had ANY problems with VCDEasy/VCDImager and the great majority of users on this forum will tell you that you DON'T want to be using Nero to encode with, even if you do use it for the menus/burning.

@jimtseng:

TMPGEnc is one of the best encoders, I use it more than all the others combined. But for MPEG1, you could also get great quality with the Panasonic encoder (often smoother/less macroblocks).

Your problem with audio may just be due to the fact that you are trying to do a VCD with VBR video, which it wasn't set up to do. MPEG1/VCD=CBR, MPEG2/SVCD/DVD=VBRorCBR.

Similarly, interlace is NOT supported on VCD, but is for SVCD/DVD.
Your source is home video DV or 8mm, which IS interlaced. If you do nothing in TMPGEnc besides using the stock VCD template, it will do the deinterlacing itself by the very nature of going from 480/576lines-->240/288lines (losing every alternate line). Doing so also changes the motion timebase from 60/50 Fields/Sec --> 30/25 Fields/Sec. Motion becomes noticeably more stilted. This can be improved by using more sophisticated de-interlace algorithms frameserved from VirtualDub. Test a number of 30sec segments using different settings/filters to figure out which works best for your material, then SAVE THE SETTINGS.

the best recommendation I've heard so far is judicious use of Noise processing and prefiltering.

HTH,
Scott

[jimtseng]

Hi txpharoah and Cornucopia,

Thank you for all the information, great help, I'll try it at home tonight.

txpharoah,
If I increase the bitrate to CBR 1856, do I have to change the seting to SVCD when I burn the (S)VCD in VCDEasy? does it make any different?

Cornucopia,
For the GOPS, I will try to set it to max 18 and closed, how about the I/B/P, should I still put 1/2/2 like txpharoah suggested? or 1/5/2 for the standard? Also, should I do deinterlace or not?

Thanks

Jim

[Cornucopia]

jimtseng:

when you go off the 1150 kbps spec, you're just making an XVCD, as in non-standard VCD. Will probably play in most players, and of those it will most likely look a good deal better. But because it is non-standard, compatibility will suffer. Just so you are forewarned.
You can still burn this with VCDEasy, you just have to ignore certain warning messages, and / or change a compatibility checkbox.

For GOPs, I would start by sticking to 1/5/2. See how that works. If it's still not to your liking, try a variation. Invariably, until you get right the combination that you like, use R/W media. Saves a lot of coasters.
BTW, 1/5/2 for I/B/P "should" be more efficient with the bitrate than 1/2/2 would be, as the Bidirectional-type frames are the most efficient of the bunch.

Once again, if you're going to VCD/MPEG1, you're going to be doing a deinterlace whether you specifically tell it to or not. The difference lies in that when you do tell it to deinterlace (in Advanced Settings, or pre-deinterlaced with VirtualDub frameserving) you get to specify which type of deinterlace you prefer. Obviously, doing nothing with the settings here will incur less time penalty.

Scott

[jimtseng]

Thanks for all the help.

I change the GOP, set to CBR, use Noise reduction, and use highest motion search. The result looks good, and no problem playing the VCD on the DVD player.

Again, thanks for all the help.

Jim