The future of -R: A thing of the Past

[Faustus]

tommyz2kool: I must take the time to point out that Firewire is still better then USB2 as a Pro Bus, and that Firewire 800 is scary fast. In the end THAT arguement is IDE vs. SCSI all over again...

On that note, personally I think - is winning, my DVR-A04 died this weekend , and I went to try and find a new one... what I found was a bunch of +RWs and and a whole lot of empty shelf space for -RWs. But its just an opinion and you know what they say about those right?

Does what I think really matter that much? No. Does its swing the outcome closer to my thinking? I WISH! Its a moot point to argue, besides as I and others have said for quite a while I think both formats will be with us for a some time.

BOTH formats burn DVDs, BOTH formats have good compatibility, BOTH formats work in most decent burning software, and BOTH formats have some media out there for Ok prices... though I still think - has a little bit of an advantage here.

I seem to remember when I joined here this was a very quite board of people exchanging information.... can we kill this thread and go back to that? People need to stop being so DEFENSIVE!


[/b]

[vance43211]

amen to that,

althrough i admit i am 1 of the worst culprits

i commented a couple of times then i got sucked in like everybody else being defensive.

[jowel13]

Or if you are like me (being a poor sap that I am), and did not have a choice but to get the cheapest one available... Verbatim DVD+R/W Drive for like $149 (which was like 5 months ago) you are happy with whichever format you got.

[SatStorm]

I can't understand why people you all say that I debate or I stand for the -R format?.
I don't!
I simply tried to present this subject from a non US view.
Why that has to be a debate?

Why it is so difficult to understand that in US currently and for various reasons I tried to explain, the +R is more popular in the distribution channels and on Europe and Asia is the opposite?

And I never said -R is better. I said that "overall and worldwide" -R still wins the competition. This has nothing to do with which format is better...

Or I am unable to express myself correct (sorry in advance if that is the problem), or you can't accept to think global.

Please realise that: In US and all the controlled by US markets, this +R format, sells, thanks to advance local marketing and the support and friendship of the local distribution channels and interests.
But this is a US thing only. The rest of the world don't follow this situation.
That is the only thing I tried to tell you.
Sorry again, if I can't express it in a way to understand it!

It has nothing to do with which format is better.

In europe, currently, Pioneer 105 bulk cost 299 euros and the Sony cost 360 euros. A DVD-R disc cost about 1.5 euro and a DVD+R disc about 3 Euros...
Visit www.computeruniverse.net to see it yourself. This is one of the best european online shops to take a taste for the european prices.
Or visit amazon.de But there the prices suck. Or visit Yahoo.it
See what is the situation outside US yourself
Anyway, I can't express it better. Sorry for that again.

[tommyz2kool]

tommyz2kool: I must take the time to point out that Firewire is still better then USB2 as a Pro Bus, and that Firewire 800 is scary fast. In the end THAT arguement is IDE vs. SCSI all over again...
[/b]

you know what? I agree with you that firewire IS better. but where is firewire for the PC? firewire is dead for PC because usb2 has the backing of intel. because of intel, usb2 has become a defacto standard for PCs. that is why -r is doomed. microsft backs +r and has the power to make it a defacto standard. there are many things microsoft could do to force a industrywide shift to +r. for instance, MS could force system builders to include a mt ranier compatible drive to qualify for the "built for windows xxx" sticker you see on all OEM computers. obviously, that excludes all -r drives.

[vance43211]

Please, Please don't start this mess all over again.

[Faustus]

lol I have firewire on both my PCs, and the new high end MOtherboards are coming with it... but this takes the entire thread WAY off subject.

[-jsl-]

In europe, currently, Pioneer 105 bulk cost 299 euros and the Sony cost 360 euros. A DVD-R disc cost about 1.5 euro and a DVD+R disc about 3 Euros...
Visit www.computeruniverse.net to see it yourself. This is one of the best european online shops to take a taste for the european prices.

I did and I found the NEC ND-1100A bulk for €249, Verbatim DVD+R costs €3.10 while Verbatim DVD-R costs €3.40. The cheapest DVD-R media I found was Princo for €2.50.

[SatStorm]

You mean http://www.computeruniverse.net/products/90067165.asp
It is the "deal of the month" for this shop, because of CeBIT. And it is a new deal (just added to the list, I didn't even know it).
You pointed ONE product (bulk version) just to justify what? That +R is cheaper? One product doesn't mean nothing.
You saw the prices in generall.
So, what you try to prove? That I am wrong?
I am not.

Most of European countries have only 2 solutions: Pioneer and Sony.
Do a better search. And compare better the prices.
Also, do you know what ?2.50 means? It is about 3 US $

Now, look the choices (and the prices) we have in Greece.
http://www.plaisio.gr/IWCatSectionView.process?IWAction=Load&Section_Id=904&Catalog_Id...nt=0&sts_cid=3
This is the biggest online shop in Greece.

I hope Italians, Spanish, French, etc, read it and post their own links to see what the situation is for real here.

[SatStorm]

I also did a search for this NEC model, and here is the price in Greece
http://www.ram-shop.gr/showproduct.php?prodid=3648
In the price, add 18% for taxes.
No shipping included.
This is a very positive step from NEC.

Maybe, this move from NEC gonna make the -R burners drop a bit the prices. The last six months the prices are stable about 300 Euros (no taxes
included) for those - R burners.
Our salaries is about 600 euros per month!

Here is another link to see our local prices and what we can buy here:
http://www.ram-shop.gr/showsubcateg.php?id=148


About the disc prices, computeruniver.net ain't the best place to buy DVD Recordable discs.
Here is what we have around
http://www.plaisio.gr/IWCatSectionView.process?IWAction=Load&Section_Id=789&Catalog_Id...nt=0&sts_cid=3

You can easily also see the prices here: https://www.videohelp.com/dvdmedia
Search for european reports...

[Trenton_Net]

In case your wondering, for all those guys who keep pointing out Microsoft supports +R exclusivly, thats no longer a fact.

[mkelley]

Geeze, these format wars make OS wars seem tame <g>.

All I know is that I'm very happy I bought a burner that supports both formats. It seems to me that is a very good way to hedge your bets.

[cplevel42]

It is clear that -R is making quite an impact on Microsoft, because they are now openly admitting that they will support -R along with +R. The reason for this is because of the MASSIVE -R following that emerged WORLD WIDE! Believe it or not, both formats are here to stay for many years. The question is this; How much do you wanna pay for media? If the answer that question is: "not much", then Ritek and -R are the way to go. Period! Read about Microsoft supporting -R here: http://news.com.com/2100-1041_3-1000493.html?tag=fd_top

[negon]

you say to go to best buy and circuit city to check out your evidence......would you happen to have noticed that -R is so popular that it's always sold out and the always have +R in stock?

[liquiddecay]

i'm not going to debate -R vs. +R.

but why would a person limit themselves strictly to one format when you can have both with the Sony DRU 500? it the safest bet you can have. let the price fluctate on media, let compatibility fluctuate, you could always switch back-and-forth if you have a dual format burner.

I am curious as to why more companies haven't come out with a dual format burner. maybe someone could tell me.

i would just spend a little more for a dual format burner and feel safe for years to come.

that's just my opinion.

[The village idiot]

What about BlueRay?

Or death ray for that matter

I'm a -R, RAM camper myself.

[vance43211]

shoot i had a crackhead who sold me a 100 dvd+r discs for $40.00. u can't beat that

[vance43211]

i can see that someboby just couldn't let this stupid debate die

[MackemX]

-

[smittymike19]

Ok here is how I see it. I just bought a -R drive. It cost me like 200 bucks, with dvds that were like 1.25 each. It PLAYs the +r format. A few years back I bought a 8X cd recorder for like $250 with cds being about $1 each. Now (just a few years later) 52X cd recorders can be bought for 50bucks or so with 100 cds costing under 10 bucks (with mail in rebate). The point is not the costs (cause i know plenty will post with different costs) but the fact is that in 3 years the drive you own will be worthless because 24x dvd drives will be 50 bucks. With the evolving dual+/- drives that are surfacing, i'll bet that the future drive will all recognize both formats and you won't be "stuck" if you go either way. You may have to jump ship eventually, but it will only cost you under 100 bucks like i said. If you think having technology isnt gonna cost you anything, you are wrong. In 3 years i want a 52x dvd burner ANYWAY so i will upgrade then, and i will pick the format that won and i am sure i will still be able to watch my -r's on that drive, even if +r wins. Furthermore, since the dvds will cost $7 for 100 if i need to, i will just throw them onto the + format.
Just as a side note: if you notice sony and phillips (the 2 biggest +format guys) just made dual format drives. hmmmmmmm

[arcorob]

wow ..interesting thread. I especially like the bit about
"I have a friend who woks at best buy and he says the reason you don't see the minus R's is because they can't keep them on the shelf..."

PLEEAAAAAASEEEEE Children. Both formats are valid.

But if you want to see who is leading then your answer is here
http://www.dell.com/us/en/dhs/products/series_dimen_desktops.htm

[gilhoy]

Who cares?
All the bickering is about trying to assure yourselves that YOU are
the one who made the right choice.
It'll be years before any of us has to copy our (insert "+" or "-" here) media onto the opposite format.

In five or ten years I don't think I'll care that much.

[FulciLives]

DVD-RAM kicks ass ...

Very few people know this but if you record onto a stand alone DVD recorder using DVD-RAM (which pretty much means you are using a Panny stand alone DVD recorder) you can take that DVD-RAM disc and copy it to your computer's HDD and have an mpeg2 file with 2.0 AC-3 sound. You can then edit it (using Womble's Mpeg2Vcr) and then author it using Ulead DVD MovieFactory 2. At this point you can burn it to either DVD-R or DVD+R as it doesn't really matter since it is a standard mpeg2 file.

The end result though is a nicely edited (perfect for cutting commercials out of TV recordings) DVD in your choice of format. Since you used Ulead DVD MF2 you have a (somewhat) fancy menu and custom (if you want) chapter points.

The absolute BEAUTY of this process is you NEVER have to do a computer software mpeg2 encoding (using TMPGEnc or CCE or whatever). Not to mention the fact that the final product (your DVD-R or DVD+R) will be more compatable with AC-3 audio instead of MP2 crap sound.

And this process only works using DVD-RAM

Of course you could use some sort of capture card to first get a DV file or some sort of AVI file but then you will need to do a software mpeg2 conversion which "only" takes an average of AT LEAST 3 times or more the length of the clip you are encoding. Hope you have a steller speed computer. Not needed with the DVD-RAM method.

And consider this ... Although I did note that your computer burner in this process can be either DVD-R or DVD+R ... BUT ... since DVD-RAM is part of the - format wouldn't you rather support it by buying a DVD-R for the computer? In fact Panasonic makes a very nice 2x DVD-R burner that reads DVD-RAM unlike most other DVD-R burners. If need be you can also buy a well regarded Toshiba DVD-ROM reader for around $50 that also reads DVD-RAM so you can use the burner of your choice.

But you still need that Panny stand alone DVD recorder for your DVD-RAM recording. And Panny supports DVD-R not DVD+R

But please by all means continue doing computer A/V capture and spend HOURS and HOURS and HOURS and HOURS of your life doing mpeg2 software encoding.

EMBRACE THE POWER OF DVD-RAM ... part of the - family of DVD recorders.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[gilhoy]

DVD-RAM kicks ass ...



But please by all means continue doing computer A/V capture and spend HOURS and HOURS and HOURS and HOURS of your life doing mpeg2 software encoding.

I hit the encode button before I go to bed.
Then I get up and go to work.
Its a good 16-20 hours between bedtime and the time I get home from work.

If you're implying I'm wasting my time, you just might be wrong.

[red lion]

People should keep buying the dvd-r as the dvd+r is to expencive and the dvd-r is more compatible with ps2
end of story as far as im concerened
how can you argue against this

[FulciLives]

I hit the encode button before I go to bed.
Then I get up and go to work.
Its a good 16-20 hours between bedtime and the time I get home from work.

If you're implying I'm wasting my time, you just might be wrong.

Maybe some people live with other people that who would like to use the computer when the other is at work. Maybe some people don't want the computer on ALL or MOST of the time. Maybe some people don't work a 40 plus hour work week and would like to play around with the computer instead of leaving it be while it encodes, or risk crashing it or slowing it down by multitasking as it is encoding. Maybe you like to leave KaZaA running during the day when you are away so it can download ... whatever. Maybe your computer isn't a mega Ghz bought last month model and takes more than 16-20 hours to do a proper 2-pass VBR mpeg2 encoding.

Maybe you can record in real time and get more done since the computer just handles the editing/authoring stage.

Maybe some people don't know a good thing when it hits them over the head.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

P.S.
Another thought ... if you buy a Panny stand alone recorder with a built-in HDD you can record many many hours onto the HDD then burn to DVD-RAM at YOUR conveinence and then finish it off on the computer. I bet your computer can't capture AND encode at the same time. So you leave the computer all day/night encoding. What happens when something is on TV you want to record while the computer is encoding? Oh wait you can record it to VHS for latter computer capture? Yeah ... that's a great time/quality option!

[JasonK]

What a worthless thread. I've never seen so many inaccuracies and so much speculation. Get a life people.

[CaptainC]

I suppose if sony back it then you must be alright, I think these are the arguments of those wh bought something that has progressed.
The main factor seems to be that most new media being produced is 4.0x media which if you cant get a flash upgrade to suport the media then your out of the race, fro what i understand all new players seem to be 4.0x speed and printing on DVD+R/RW media.
Its called progress and by the time this gets going all our drives will be out of date.
Sony has decided to go it alone and alone it will be, they should stick to making hi-fi and TVs and leave digital technology to phillips and its associates.
The moment you start trusting manufacturers like sony your in trouble, These guys dont want you copying a thing so why would they care if you bought a DVD + or _ look at the great pains that they have gone to to get DVD players that support VCD SVCD and DVD+/-R of the shelfs.
Samsung who by the way produce drives for sony also have removed these facilitys from some of the new players not a horse i would back.

[Kal250]

Seems to me that most everyone is defending their own investment, personally I bought a Toshiba SDR5002, because my local hardware store was sellin it for $180 three months back, DVD-R media is still cheaper to buy. I'll ride this wave as long as it goes, if by some chance dvd-r is phased out I'll move to whatever is current -- it's not the end of the world!! Just my 2 cents.

Kal

[XanaXManX]

Why the hell the didnt all of you get the DRX-500UL. I cant believe how some of you guys are fighting over this like children. I personally have a DRX-500UL and I always buy the cheaper media. and both formats work great in both of my DVD players. The only plus for me with the DVD+R format is that it does burn faster.