The future of -R: A thing of the Past

[Amish Electrician]

Wow what a long read this thread is.
Well im gonna say it first i have a -r so you just can assume im bias.
I got my Pioneer 104 about 8 months ago & here is what i did to come to my conclusion.
#1 price was somewhat a factor but never should be the only one.Point i only buy plextor cd burners not cause there cheap.
#2 Then i lookd on the Dvd Writers part of theis website to see what was the most used & liked burner at the time the most reports were on the Dvd-r front & the pioneer was leadn the pack.
#3 Then i checked if my player would play dvd-r & all the players my friends had did to so thats why i got -r
I also noted that all newer players support both so it didnt seem to matter.
As for one being better who knows who cares if one dies then just go buy the one that is left its not like we are talkn about lot of $$$ here hell by the time one format is out it will be so slow or lame you wont want it anyway.
One thing i will say just cause one product sells more dont meen the other is gonna go away just look at MAC vs PC Windows vs Linux
Theres enuff market to go around & the market is much diff then the days of VHS & Bata
As for the Bias on the +r being sold more at the Best Buy i would say yes thats true so i go to CompUsa they got both is same amounts & same $
I think its just depends on the sales rep & what deal he makes with a store.
Best Buy to me has no high end stuff only cream of the crap & i dont see alot of competing products in there store
Example the Sony mini Dv cams compet with Canon DV but you only see low end Canon Dv cams at Best Buy & all makes of Sony
So the sales Rep made a deal i will sell you my product for this $$ if you dont carry these products.
PS: dont trash me with (well maby it dont matter to you to buy a new burnner iv got $$$$$ in my dvds for my business) if your such a pro why are you buying & using consumer level equpment.

8)

[drewson99]

Did you know DVD+R will never have this logo . That's the official logo for DVD-Video, DVD+R can't have it. But it comes on every packaged DVD-R media.

I have to say, I am with the -R people here - I think all this defensive shit from the +R people is due to buyer's remorse, wish they had bought the better burner and want to come up with a reason why it is "better" to pay 2-3 times more for media.

HOWEVER:

you are arguing that the DVD-Video logo is on your Verbatims, when it is obvious (in your example) that it is the DVD-R logo, NOT the DVD-Video logo.

There is a difference.

One says R;R 4.7

The other says VIDEO

[vance43211]

[quote="drewson99"][quote="disturbed1"]Did you know DVD+R will never have this logo [
I have to say, I am with the -R people here - I think all this defensive shit from the +R people is due to buyer's remorse, wish they had bought the better burner and want to come up with a reason why it is "better" to pay 2-3 times more for media.



i said i would never bash dvd-r but after this statemment.........


the reason we are defensive is since 4x came out . yall (DVD-r owners) have done nothing but talk *#$@ since then. the reason yall are doing this is yall can finally compete with us (+r owners) . for months youall couldn't say *$#% because it took youall over an hr. just to burn a finish movie while it took us 20 minutes.

the reason our format wasn't as compatible as -r (play in all dvd players) at first was because it was a new format and the bugs had to be worked out.

for instance my first recorder a $550 sony dru 120a came with crap software and only half of my movies would play in dvd players. but through the use of vcd help.com and other internet software( mainly instant cd dvd) i was able to overcome all that . then i brought another dvd +rw drive an $300+ aopen which came with software that make dvds compatible with everything(i use that software on my sony now)

dvd-r was never a consideration because it had one foot in the grave & nobody was talking that &*$% on the internet back then, in fact a lot of people were trashing their -r drives for +r

now yall are the ones(-r people) that are defensive. youall sulked when had that slow 1x speed and when the 4x came out, yall was so happy that now yall can finally compete with us. you all just turn into snobs and think yall are better than us.

NEWS FLASH. neither format will die (altough dvd-r came pretty close!). Be happy and stop complaining. we are (happy with our format that is)

P.S. if you check the history of this discussion, yall will find that the -r users are mainly the ones whinning and defensive and complaining

[Kusanagi]

I can get printable DVD-R media for my Rimage Everest CD/DVD printer.

I can't get DVD+R media for the Rimage Everest printer.

Mitsui only makes DVD-R media, not DVD+R media.

For me, DVD-R is still where it's at.


Kusanagi

[vance43211]

u must want a cookie. if u had a dvd+r drive you would say the same thing

[Paul_W]

The last time I looked, many of the over $100 DVD players were sporting multiple formats. Think about it, if you made DVD players, you wouldn't want people bringing them back because they didn't play their DVD's. The way I understand it, making a DVD player compatible with +/-R or +/-RW is mainly a matter of software being coded on the player. Thats not a big issue for most manufacturers.

[DJRumpy]

I always get a chuckle out of these. CVD was going to kill VCD. SVCD was going to kill CVD/VCD. DVD was going to kill SVCD. CD-R will be around for many years to come.

Take it a step farther. Look at the floppy drive. It's been around for well over 20 years. Is it a good format by todays standards? Not even close. Are there cheaper methods available? Yes. Are there faster methods available? Yes. Are the new standards agreed on, and highly compatible. Yes. Is floppy gone. No. Still here. Even now, there are still new machines comming out with a floppy drive. Why? Becuase it was here first. It has market saturation. It's a standard. Same with DVD-R. Far to many companies and clients have already bought into the standard. It will take years for it to go away. Only now, 20 years later, are we even seeing PC's that ship without. Think about it.

They used to say that +R would be faster than -R. That -R would be inherently limited in speed, yet -R was the first to introduce a 4X burner. They used to use the same argument for analog modems. Can't get any faster they said. Physically impossible, yet they've doubled beyond that impossible speed.

I'm betting most of you still have a floppy in your PC...

One thing that I do know for sure, is that you should never say never when it involves technology. It'll bite you in the arse every time...

[drewson99]

how many "yall's" was that?

[solarfox]

I've been to six circuit cities and Best Buys and have only been able to find DVD+R recorders. Has anyone found -R that wasn't Sony at a major retail outlet? I am excluding office depot from my question.

First, Office Depot is a major retail outlet, so you cannot logically exclude it from your question. (You can, of course, exclude it in the vain hope that it'll bias the answer more to your liking. :P )

Major retail outlets carrying DVD-R media:

Fry's Electronics: The ones here in Texas (at least the Austin, Dallas, and Ft. Worth locations I've been to) carry Apple, GQ, TDK, Sony, Memorex, Pioneer, and Panasonic brands of DVD-R; they also carry Sony, Memorex, Pioneer, and GQ brands of DVD-RW.

CompUSA: The one here in Austin carries TDK, Sony, Memorex, and their own house-brand discs in both DVD-R and DVD-RW flavors.

Best Buy: The Austin location I go to carries Memorex and Sony DVD-R, and Memorex DVD-RW. (For some reason, they're heavily biased towards Memorex media in general at this location; the majority of their DVD+R/RW's, CD-R/RW's, videotapes, and minidiscs are Memorex as well.)

I could go on, but frankly I don't feel like wasting any more time refuting this ridiculous notion you've pulled out of your... orifice ... that DVD-R/RW has no major retail presence.

[solarfox]

the reason we are defensive is since 4x came out . yall (DVD-r owners) have done nothing but talk *#$@ since then. the reason yall are doing this is yall can finally compete with us (+r owners) . for months youall couldn't say *$#% because it took youall over an hr. just to burn a finish movie while it took us 20 minutes.

Really? How do you explain all the people who've done full discs in 30 minutes with 2X DVD-R media, then? Were we just hallucinating, or having our perceptions of time altered by being in such close proximity to a rapidly-spinning object, or what?

Statements like that are a big reason why -R/RW owners don't take you +R/RW people seriously anymore...

[vance43211]

first of all, dvd-r owner were the one crying on the internet about it taking an hour to burn a dvd and how they wished their drives were faster.

second do you think we even thought about taking you,dvd-r owner seriously. you all are a bunch crying sissies who think your format is better than ours(not all dvd-r owners just the one that always whining about their format is better).

for the moment it is faster. not better (for the record my friend's 4x dvd-r drive take 26 minutes to make a 4.7 gig disc duplication my 2.4 dvd+r takes 20 minutes( and me and him never argue about which format is better)

third we never said our format was better than yours (even when our drives were faster) that was you and your crying buddies when 4x came out

fourth if you and -r buddies would just GROW UP there would be no need for this discussion no more

NEWS FLASH!!!! Neither format will die and neither format is better than the other. the right software and all movies will play in all DVD Players

So come on with yall's comeback, because i know you all are to Childish to not have one (one of yall will say something to try and prove yall's format is better)

[ghoster]

vance43211 you said you friend has a 4x dvd drive and it took 26 minutes to burn a 4.7 gig disc. if that is correct your friend was burning a 2x because 4x it would take like less than 15 minutes to do it.

[vance43211]

his was a 4x and it was set to 4x . with the execption of the 2 gig of ram(he only has a 10 gig hard drive but he has a 1200 processor and a server) he got, i have a better computer which is probaly the reason. he just brought a pioneer a05 (i think that the model number) a few week ago and i was showing him how to burn dvds. his media also was 4x

i was actually shocked because i was expecting it burn the dvds in 15 mins.

[tommyz2kool]

seriously, you dvd-r guys need to see the writing on the wall. the fact that microsoft has commited to +r is huge. the 2 biggest PC vendors (dell, hp/compaq) account for approximately 30% of all PC sales and only offer +r drives. that situation will only get worse when the next version of windows ships with mt ranier support. then ALL pc vendors will be forced to ship +r drives to take advantage of OS support. no vendor will want to include a -r drive because it will not be windows compliant.

you cannot downplay the fact that 2 major retailers almost exclusively choose to sell +r drives. right now it is not a big deal, but when dvd burning goes mainstream, where do you think most people will go to buy their gear?

[/b]

[SatStorm]

The "+" format is a US thing.
In the rest of the world, is "-" all the way!

Exception: BeNeLux, because of Philips, and some Asian secondary markets related/controled by US interests.

Why this? Because a year and more after the first introduction of +R format, the minus is still cheaper. And the same realable. The plus format is more expensive and have issues. Not more or less than the minus, but it has issues. For a format based his marketing in the "no issues" strategy, this is a BIG failure.
In theory, the plus format is somehow better. In praxis, it is not.
If now, there are specific problems in US Region 1 DVD standalone players with the -R, who cares. Only those who want to point them. The others, gonna buy a standalone compatible with the media they produce. Why? Because buying - R is cheaper. Using -R is more global. -R is standard, not a bully thing like +R.
Plus, in europe we have much less problems with -Rs, than with the +R on our standalones.

About M$ and the + support...
Who cares...
When you buy a device, even in the Bulk market, you get the drivers with it. You install them and that's it. Easy like that.
Who use the default VGA drivers on M$ Windows? Who use the buily in drivers of windows for our modems? . Who use the drivers M$ gives for our sound card? No-one!
When we buy a device, we use the drivers the device ships with. So, who cares for the built in M$ support.

Finally: +R is still alive in US, because there, you don't built your own PCs as we do in Europe and the rest of the world. You buy good, stable and pre-fixed PCs, distibution solutions from great manufactures like HP, Dell, etc. With this market, you do offers: Those offers includes certain solutions. So, if someone control this markets, it can lead the crauds. Well, that works in US (and partly Britain). The rest of the world ain't like this. We built our own PCs. Part by Part. And in this market, when you choose yourself the PC parts and you don't buy PC deals, noone choose the +R burners!.
If that doesn't tell you something, then nothing will!
Yes, in Theory +R is better -R. In praxis, -R is the overall winner. Price, compatibility, issues, strong base.
No, the media won't disapear that easy, for each format. Beta Videos stoped produced by sony in the summer of 2002! Beta tapes still (and for a decade) gonna be in the market. So, there is not a fear like this.
The only problem, is the price! DVD-R lead the race. That's it. And because this is the real world, the cheaper wins. NOT the better!

This war is over. Now, let's focus in the other one (the one in real life!)

[DJRumpy]

On a side note SatStorm, I would never buy a store bought PC, from a vendor. Their not upgradable because their cases are usually not standard, and their way overpriced. I can buy a 2.4 GHz PIV/MB combo at fries for less than $200.00 American. Throw in a case for $50, and memory for $50, and you've got yerself a pc.

This thread smacks of the PC/Mac (or Mac/PC for you Mac owners ) debate. Arguing serves nothing. Your trying to defend your purchase. Both burners produce DVD's. Who cares which format you use?

[vance43211]

The "+" format is a US thing.
In the rest of the world, is "-" all the way!


Plus, in europe we have much less problems with -Rs, than with the +R on our standalones.



Finally: +R is still alive in US, because there, you don't built your own PCs as we do in Europe and the rest of the world. You buy good, stable and pre-fixed PCs, distibution solutions from great manufactures like HP, Dell, etc. With this market, you do offers: Those offers includes certain solutions. So, if someone control this markets, it can lead the crauds. Well, that works in US (and partly Britain). The rest of the world ain't like this. We built our own PCs. Part by Part. And in this market, when you choose yourself the PC parts and you don't buy PC deals, noone choose the +R burners!.
If that doesn't tell you something, then nothing will!
Yes, in Theory +R is better -R. In praxis, -R is the overall winner. Price, compatibility, issues, strong base.
No, the media won't disapear that easy, for each format. Beta Videos stoped produced by sony in the summer of 2002! Beta tapes still (and for a decade) gonna be in the market. So, there is not a fear like this.
The only problem, is the price! DVD-R lead the race. That's it. And because this is the real world, the cheaper wins. NOT the better!

This war is over. Now, let's focus in the other one (the one in real life!)

where in the hell did u find this guy?

u know what? i not going to even respond to this stupid message!!!

[SatStorm]

@vance43211:
This guy, is here more than 3 years. And also happens to be a member of EISA

@DJRumpy
Yes, you are right...
But we have to realise, that we are not mainstream costumers, we, the users of technical forums in generall. And this forum is technical!
The mainstream US user buy from Dell, HP, etc. From Vendors.
Vendors Rule the market of US. Network distribution Stores also rule the market of US and some parts of European countries (based on the US market model)
There, +R has a big share.
On really "free" markets, like the ones we have in Europe and they also have in Asia, I don't know for Australia, I think they are US - like on those matters, the +R is a ghost. Nobody use it!

[vance43211]

it obvious you never been over here to make a stupid statement like that . while it be true that 60 to 70% (maybe higher) of american buy theirs pre-made. what do u think 30% of 100 million is?

18 month ago i couldn't tell u anything about a computer (i used to say they are going to cause the end of the world). my cousin gave me an old computer with windows 95. it was too old to do anything but it did enough to get me into computers. i would have never gotten into computers if one wasn't given to me

i been upgrading ever since. i put computers together for people. And i can run circles around people who went to school for computers and who been using computers for 20 years (and i taught a lot of people how to build and take apart computers and install systems)

[SatStorm]

Hmmm...
It happens to be one of those guys who has a computer for exactly 20 years.
My first one was a sinclair ZX Spectrum 48+
Those were the days...
8 colours, 8 bit graphics, one audio channel (the notorius BEEP command!). No monitor -only TV-, 10 min to load a crappy but amazing game from a cassette tape ...
You remind me things, thank you

Anyway, back to our subject:
You base your facts on the knowledge you have gather in your tiny local limited market and your 18 month PC experience. Sorry, it doesn't work this way.
From the other hand, If you wish to talk US, post to a US only forum. Here, we talk global. Realise what global means.

You posted:
it obvious you never been over here to make a stupid statement like that . while it be true that 60 to 70% (maybe higher) of american buy theirs pre- made. what do u think 30% of 100 million is

I know pretty well the US market.
The remaining 30 % of those PC user costumers you mention (not Americans in generall, there are 40% of Americans don't even have a PC at home or at all), are mostly gamers. Read some statistics and you gonna see. Do a simply google or theoma search to find them. The statistics for 2002 informs the world that only the 7% of the US users, which built there own PCs, choosed this path for a non game use of them.
For those users and because playstation 2 loves DVD+R, this format is the best choice. Yes or no?
Who is behind Playstation? Sony....
Who is DVD+R? Sony (among others).
Which is the number one use of DVD+R today? DVD-movies backups? No. Playstation 2 game piracy....
You buy a DVD+R just to copy rent playstation games and sold to a children for black profit. This black distribution is huge. Believe it or not, this supports the market you know....

The typical user, the typical enthusiast of OUR hobby from the other hand, or even the home user who wish to copy DVDs for himself, like anybody do with CD audio the last 5 years, waits for the prices to drop more to buy a DVD burner.
Who is the winner in this? DVD-R
There are of course, those who bought new PCs over the last year and choose to get a DVD burner with it. And guess some of them choose the + solution. Yes, but most of those users, won't even realise if the burner is + or -. Those users wants simply to do their job done. What is "trendy" in US right now? The plus solution... So, they buy the +R because they are succesfull victims of the market policy.


But your last post , supports my analysis: This 70% of US buy from vendors. If those Vendors choose to support +R then suddently, the +R rules the market.
On the remaining 30%, the choise goes like this: Some advance and informed users, gonna buy what they believe it is best. The others gonna choose what the "experts" like you suggest to them.
So, ain't a suprise that the +R format has a share in US.

The suprise is that even with all this, and even in a very controlled market like the US one, the bigest share remains to the DVD-R camp!

You also said that on your local stores, you can only find DVD+R burners. Maybe.. You know why?
Because the ventors which choose or determine the market faith, decide to make the market look positive for DVD+R in US. Why to bother? Easy:
Because the stock of those DVD+R burners remained unsold worldwide. The only market this DVD+R bullshit sells a bit is the US one. So, they push all the stock there.

It is a big suprise that even there, in a market so controlled, many users don't follow what the local interests point and choose more global solutions. Choose the -R format

Anyway, what is your problem with my post? Because I am able to explain why this bully stupid +R format has a share in the US market? Because I can explain the reasons for this share? Because you don't like those reasons I present? This is your problem!

If the USA interests want to isolate the US costumers from the worldwide respected and succesfull DVD-R, it is OK for me. Ain't big deal.... It is not the first time....

[LanEvo7]

Yea, the US market is pretty stupid this way. Many americans have never even heard of VCD. Why?, because when the rest of the world switched over to VCD(especially Asian market, I'm not to sure about Europe), America was still on VHS. Most movies on the market were on VCD and there were special players that played only VCD. What did the US market have? VHS. It is only currently that the American market is beginning to switch over to DVD.

[menace]

I'll agree to any format just so long as I don't have to listen to vance 43211 massacre the english language anymore

it obvious you never been over here to make a stupid statement like that . while it be true that 60 to 70% (maybe higher) of american buy theirs pre-made. what do u think 30% of 100 million is?

[/quote]

[vance43211]

sat storm the only reason i responded to u was because u said ' Finally: +R is still alive in US, because there, you don't built your own PCs as we do in Europe and the rest of the world "

even if only 1000 people build their own computers in ths U.S., that make what u said an inaccurate statement.

u also said "You also said that on your local stores, you can only find DVD+R burners. Maybe.. You know why"

I never said that

are for dvd+r having issues i kinda agree. they used to have issues. they have long since been resolved


all that other stuff u are talking about who really cares? i have a dvd +r whatever i record will play on any dvd player, and i also don't burn playstation 2 games . so i'm happy with what i got (and so should u).

As for Menace the dennis, i never type before i got a computer. i flunked typing in highschool 17 years ago. it was the only class that i ever flunked. i was probaly checking in your lunch money or something. anyway i got my typing shortcuts from watching vcdhelp.com and most of yall (yes i said yall) use these shortcut, so why can't i? i a regular person who do regular chores and i jump on the computer in my spare time, i'm not some sissified geek like u stuck on the computer all day everyday.

Another thing menace "Eat a d#*k". Was that proper enough 4 u?

[menace]

easy there hillbilly y'all need to settle yo'self down hmm.

Another thing menace "Eat a d#*k". Was that proper enough 4 u?

Sure I guess, but I do eat duck on occasion, is there a particular way you wanted me to?

This thread is stupid, it should be obvious to everyone that both formats have been accepted by consumers, whatever their intelligence level and both formats will likely continue to be supported barring some vast improvement by one group over the other.[/quote]

[solarfox]

third we never said our format was better than yours (even when our drives were faster) that was you and your crying buddies when 4x came out

This tells me that either (a) you haven't actually read any of the other dash-vs-plus argument threads (many of them instigated by +R supporters parroting a certain website's inaccurate comparisons verbatim), or (b) you really need to work on your memory and reading-comprehension skills.

And I'm certainly not "crying" about my -R/RW drive, even if it is just a Pioneer A-04 limited to "only" 2X burn speed, nor do I recall any wailing and gnashing of teeth from anyone else on this forum who uses the -R/RW format about their burn speeds. (Other than some annoyance/confusion when a firmware upgrade from Pioneer would occasionally cause certain brands of cheap DVD-R media to be unable to be burned at 2X anymore.)

Considering that I typically spend 2 hours capturing, 30 minutes or so setting up the project in Media Studio Pro (trimming commercials, etc.), about 2.5 - 3.5 hours encoding, plus at least another hour in DVD Workshop creating menus, setting chapter stops, etc... frankly, the +R's speed advantage of 0.4X doesn't really excite me. Five whole minutes out of a 6 - 7 hour process? Big fat hairy deal.

[tommyz2kool]

-r vs. +r is like firewire vs usb2 all over again. only this time, -r is firewire and +r is usb2. case in point:

at the time, firewire was more mature, had more support and was even backed by apple. usb2 on the other hand, had no presence whatsoever. then intel came along and started pushing usb2 on everyone. see that is why +r will win. microsoft is a big enough player to force +r on to everyone.

it doesnt matter which format is better...all that matters is who is on what side, and the -r guys dont really have anyone.

[SatStorm]

Believe it or not, the + format is currently still alive only in US and US controlled markets.
There is no comparison between + and - for what is best.
the + format is technically and theoritically better.
The - format is practicly more compatible world wide. Also it is cheaper worldwide.
In most european countries, right now, you can't find a single + burner... Only on BeNeLux. (Belgium, Nederlands, Luxembourg) and maybe Denmark. All those markets, are traditional controlled from Philips.... For the rest of Europe, a huge market, minus is the winner!
It doesn't mean that - is better.
But it is the winner.
The reason I analyse you the situtation, it was just to make you realise what happens behind the scenes. If you don't care, it's OK. But for some others who read this tread, maybe those infos I posted was helpfull to realise the situation.

We don't disagree on something. I simply point some things, you maybe not interest. But I believe many others are interest!

And yes, it wasn't you said "on your local stores, you can only find DVD+R burners". It was another poster in this same post. Sorry, my mistake.

Also, about the " who really cares?", well...
This is not my "United States of Whatever" as the song said.
When you choose, you must be informed good first.
And that's why the forums exist.
I'll be really happy if there is one simply forum visitor here, who read my post and found it interesting.


Also, about the use of English, my enlish sucks and I know it. It is not my native language and I learn them myself. I never went to school. I learn them by watching MTV Europe, years ago...
So, sorry for that.

[vance43211]

first i not a hillbilly. i am a african american for columbus,ohio .i might type hillbilly though.

second, satstorm u seem like a intelligent man to me. i am suprised that u are arguing the -r is better. u have too much sense for that(neither format is better they are are both compatible on dvd players). they both win if they're making money.

third, solarfox for months i read these treads without commenting, but since 4x dvd-r drives came out, -r owner have really started bashing +r. yes once in a while a +r guy would come out and say something (usually in the defense of +r) but for the most part it is was mostly -r owners with the negative comments, which started me commenting on this tread.

P.S. somebody on this tread said u could get dvd+r disc for 1.67 a piece. Where is that? i play anywhere from 3 to 5 dollars for them. except when i see bill the crackhead and he has some.

[DJRumpy]

I've always found SatStorms opinion valuable. The handle has been here since I came online. Some foolish people (usually Americans I'm ashamed to say, of which I happen to be one), will assume someone is of lesser intelligence, simply because they don't type well, or vocalize their thoughts very well in English. I never stopped to consider what the world markets are like. I have no idea why Americans are so self centered. Focusing only on what's around us I guess. Drive for days, and your still in the same place here

I can't believe this is such a heated debate. The electronics stores I frequent still offer both types (Frys Electronics, Comp-USA, Best Buy, Circuit City).

I purchased a -R (A04). At the time, I knew that +R had a faster drive (2.4x), but I looked at compatability, and -R had it..+R didn't. Speed was a consideration, but .4x? Lets be serious. Even CD-R at least stuck to 2X improvements, and those were only 150KB an X. I also bought a new DVD standalone around that time. I made sure it supported both. I've since purchased yet another burner (-R again A05 ), simply because it was compatible with the media I had already burned, and it had the bonus of being the fastest available. My deciding factor was compatability though, with what I already have, and people I might burn for.

[vance43211]

i didn't say satstorm wasn't intelligent. because he is obviously the opposite. what i am saying is how is a man of this much intelligence actually is getting in this stupid debate of which format is better. thats what it is. a stupid debate.

now other people on this forum, it is obvious why they got into this debate on which one is better.

people made assumptions about me (i won't say no name, menace) because i got through all lengths to type shortcuts because typing isn't my bag.