The future of -R: A thing of the Past

[ArrogantBastard]

Hey at least now we are putting some actual thought into this discussion.

I do think that retailers are probably limiting their models to avoid confusion. Someone else (sorry I forgot who) mentioned that before and it makes perfect sense. The average Joe can barely boot up his PC let alone handle the confusion between +R and -R.

I really don't care which format wins. I personally don't think there will be a winner per se. Right now I can burn +R and -R discs and play them in my player. I am not overly worried about blu-ray not being able to read +R discs because I don't have any 27GB +R discs (hint: They don't exist). It's not like I am going to give up my DVD player anytime soon.

With all the format wars... This is more like a coexistance. I do get a kick out of the statement: XXX format plays in more players. From what I have seen it is total bullshit. I have yet to find a modern player that has had problems with either format and I have seen both format backers show bullshit statistics about how their format is more backwards compatable. But... I would like to test it. So in the near future I am going to take both a +R and -R disc to Best Buy and Circuit City and see how many I can get to play each disc. I would expect both formats will be very close in compatability.

Thanks to all to the thoughtful feedback.
AB

[thxkid]

bet anyone $10 that by end of the year the +RW camp WILL HAVE +R and +RW playing in Blue ray, Panasonic said the same thing on their DMR recorders shit I play +R and +RW's all day long in my DMR-E10 and DMR-20 and my copies to my friends with E30 and HRS-2 play back perfect, thats just a cheap cop out by the -R camp to thump their chests right now, remember it will be 2+(no pun intended) years before a blue ray recorder be down to under a thousand dollars and by then who knows what format will be recording or playing in each other machines and with the prices of the -R media going up as fast as gasoline and the +R dropping and I can buy +R Verbatuims for $2 right down the street at sams club, not gonna find any name brand -R that cheap locally, hard press to even find a name brand that cheap online. the riteks alone are almost price the same for -R and +R's.

50 pack -R - $67.50
50 pack +R - $79.00

3 months ago
50 pack -R - $49.50
50 pack +R - $99.00

Hey if I could have ever got a pioneer to work correctly I'd be using it now, but MY HP dvd200i worked perfect out of the box and over 200 +R's later still working great, no need to switch here. Why fix something that ain't broke. By the way I went down to Circuit city, Sams club and frys electronics with 3 different +R's and +RW's and they played in any and all DVD players I popped them into, I could not find a player that would not play back any of my test disc, they only thing that would not play a +R was the XBOX, but once I used recordnow DX it went ahead and played it.

[defense]

thxkid, i'm surprised you still actually post on these topics. Three different posters, INCLUDING myself have posted quotes from you which completely contradict themselves. You say you had problems with DVD2ONE, then you say you NEVER had a problem. You say +R is great, and -R sucks, then you say you burned OVER 50 Ritek and they were all DVD-R and all played great. Your stories change like the weather.

Hey if I could have ever got a pioneer to work correctly I'd be using it now, but MY HP dvd200i worked perfect out of the box and over 200 +R's later still working great, no need to switch here.

Right..that's exactly why you want to continue to TRY and convince yourself that the DVD+R format is here to stay. Anyone who buys and HP burner needs to do a little more research. Your HP crap burner and your +R media are a thing of the past. Your ancient history THX, just like DTS sound. You need to upgrade that crappy equipment for some real SONY equipment to play that real THX sound on.

[Xtasy2002]

-R is obviously superior in every way, shape and form. Who cares what n00bs at Best Buy are doing? The real professionals are here on this board (including myself) and will tell you that -R is the superior format. Both in compatability, price, and even #'s of unit in use and being purchased to this day. Like a previous poster already pointed out before someone is going to plonk $200+ on a piece of computer equipment, they will do a little research. At least ask someone who knows what they are talking about for advice. Unless they ask someone who doesn't know jack, that person (and their research) will all point to -R units.

+R will stay around but it will never outpace -R.

As for the guy walking around stores with -R and +R media, I've already done this exact thing and can tell you the results. There were several stand alone DVD players that would not play the +R media, but would play the -R media perfectly. Amazingly the -R media was also cheap Ritek brand while the +R was more expensive media. The -R played just fine in every single stand alone I threw at it.

[metoo2]

-R is obviously superior in every way, shape and form. Who cares what n00bs at Best Buy are doing? The real professionals are here on this board (including myself) and will tell you that -R is the superior format.

And Betamax was the superior product, but it was VHS that won the consumer market. Why? Because Mom'n'Pop customer could find VHS on the shelves.

Same with Mom'n'Pop customer going to Bestbuy - if they can only find +R writers and +R disks, then they'll buy +R.

If Mom'n'Pop customer is even the slightest bit savvy they'll ask 'what's the fuss about this + - controversy?' and RetailSalesman will promptly sell 'em a multi-format drive under the logic of 'it's better to hedge your bets, folks.'

And in reality, as long as your + or - dvd disks can be played by the majority of dvd roms and players, then that's all that matters.

[SLK001]

There is a reason that Verbatim +Rs are selling at the same price as the -R. Predatory pricing. Verbatim was an early member of the +R FORUM (or GROUP, or CLUB - whatever they call themselves), and need to prop up sales of this format. I asked the sales"clown" at my local BB about their selection of blanks that was on their shelves (they were about 8 to 1 with the +Rs). He said that they were leaning toward the more "popular" format. I told him (literally) that he and his chain were full of shit - that the sales of -R drives FAR outstripped the +Rs, and if he and his purchasing "clowns" would, or could do any research, they would have noticed which format was really the "popular" one. I even got the manager and told him the same. I was just a little pissed off, because I had gone down for some Verbatim -Rs and I had to leave empty handed (their website has them, and with free shipping).

This reminds me of an old joke:
"What's the difference between a used car salesman and a computer salesman?"
ANS: "The used car salesman knows he's lying to you!"

[bobsolo]

Anyone who buys and HP burner needs to do a little more research. Your HP crap burner and your +R media are a thing of the past. Your ancient history THX, just like DTS sound. You need to upgrade that crappy equipment for some real SONY equipment to play that real THX sound on.

That's about the most bias (and IMHO useless) piece of information I've seen in this thread so far.

I researched DVD burners for months before buying (thanks to all who contribute to this site), and based on my needs, ended up purchasing the HP200i. I have yet to create a coaster (DVD, SVCD, VCD) and my +Rs have worked on every DVD player I've put them in (Sony, Memorex, Malata, Toshiba, Audiovox).

From all the reviews/comments I've read on players and burners, it seems that 99% of the time burnt DVD don't play because of user error (bad authoring, incompatible source video, etc) and then people blame their equipment.

defense, if you have experience with the HP let's hear it, but don't bash it because it's not $ony. From one of your last posts

BluRay is already out. That amazing electronics giant Sony introduced it (Who else) and it does NOT support DVD+R!

it sounds like you'll praise anything if it's a Sony. I personlly dropped Sony DVD back when they refused to support CD-R on their DVD players. They finally came to their senses, but it was too late for me. I may have been tempted to get the DVD500AX for the +R and -R support, but I was happy with what I have.

[macleod]

I was reading these posts and had to comment on it. Does anyone remember the great TP (thats toilet paper) shortage from the early 70's in the US? Amazingly, I am going to offer an analogy here.....


The US govt. issued a small statement that based on budget and whatnot, there may be a shortage of industrial TP for use at certain govt agencies. Well Johnny Carson came out and said, "hey, guess what? The Govt just announced that there is a toilet paper shortage". After he swung his imaginary golf club as millions of americans ran to their cubbards and say that they were low on TP.

There was then a HUGE rush on stores to buy TP. Places could not keep it in stock. There was auctioning of TP. Johnny Carson came on the next night and apologized about there misunderstanding and tried to assure the people that everything was fine, but it was too late. People were going crazy for TP. They even had TV spots showing miles of TP being made to calm the public, however, it too had no effect as the concensus was that the govt was deceiving the people. Eventually, over the next month everything was fine....

Hopefully, y'all can gleen the similarities here and make your own conclusions as to the debate over is -R a thing of the past....

[drewson99]

in defense of "defense" it is difficult not to fly off the handle in response to thxkid's perpetual barrage of anti -R diarrhea-of-the-mouth.

[defense]

That's about the most bias (and IMHO useless) piece of information I've seen in this thread so far.

I researched DVD burners for months before buying (thanks to all who contribute to this site), and based on my needs, ended up purchasing the HP200i. I have yet to create a coaster (DVD, SVCD, VCD) and my +Rs have worked on every DVD player I've put them in (Sony, Memorex, Malata, Toshiba, Audiovox).

You should of done a little more research bobsolo.

Shame on you.

I'm not gonna teach you why HP burners aren't even in the same ballpark as Sony, and yes, EVEN Pioneer, because you said you did your homework. I didn't say jack about NOT being able to burn a disk, or that HP burners will give you errors. Only time will tell that for you. Do some real homework and find out about quality. If you wanna buy something from HP, then make sure it's a printer.

What I said is that the MAJORITY of people who have posted for the +R campaign are doing so because they got crapped on when SONY came out with their multi-format burners.

They were pissing in their pants because they are STUCK with "ONE" format, and ONLY one format, just like you bobster. That's why they WANT TO BELIEVE +R is superior. Read the posts, it is VERY CLEAR which format is superior and there is CONCRETE information showing why -R is the superior format. See, let's just say for shits and giggles that tomorrow +R isn't here. What are you gonna do with that HP burner then? LOL.....but let's say tomorrow -R isn't here, ok..the people with the multiformat burners can STILL purchase +R. We have options to burn whichever media we want at whatever time.

The same holds true with a store being out of stock on +R media. (which never is the case) If the store is out of +R, multiformat burner owners can purchase -R, AND IF a store is out of (-R) (Which happens ALL THE TIME) then we can purchase +R if we desire. Bottom line is that we have options those CRIPPLED, one format burners don't have. Oh, and if you were gonna select a CRIPPLED burner like that, you shoulda made sure it ONLY supported (-R.) Your burner AND your media are soon to be ancient history

LONG LIVE DVD (MINUS R)

[energy80s]

I'm amazed that you can get your swelled head in through the doors of this forum! You do talk some s***e!

[defense]

I'm amazed that you can get your swelled head in through the doors of this forum! You do talk some s***e!

That was as dry as an old coochie.

Get some new s***e you lil' dwarf leprechaun! :biglaugha:

[silvergator]

Another indication of the downfall of -R is the sheer number of producers of each format. You have phillips, TDK, universal buslink, verbatim, HP.....ect...on the +R side. Who do you have pushing -R besides pioneer? panasonic and QPS which are almost nonexistant in both the retail and online outlets.

Consider fashion: if the majority of stores put out only bell bottoms when it comes to jeans, there would be a high probability that regular jeans will decrease in sales.

The market caters to the consumer and not the other way around.

But with the degree of novelty in DVD recorders, we seem to have an exception. And retail outlets and manufacturers are sure taking advantage.

[defense]

silvergator, more often then not I read things that make me wonder where people get this B.S from. Every manufacturer you mentioned for "pushing" +R also "PUSHES" -R, and pushed -R even more due to the fact that it CAN'T STAY ON THE SHELVES, while its counterpart sits there and collects dust. +R won't be collecting dust too much longer, because it will soon BE DUST. You mentioned Verbatim and TDK, EVERY single PERSON I have read that has purchased TDK DVD Media, has purchased DVD-R's and had ZERO problems with them, including myself. Some stuff is just too funny, and this thread really is a trip. Don't worry, people can save up their allowances and get a NEW, REAL, MULTIFORMAT burner one day.

[red lion]

DVD-R is the cheapest and the best for ps2 etc its what the customer wants and if we keep buying the DVD-R burners and discs then its certinally going to make some of them listen..

[JasonK]

I have the Sony DRU500A, nice drive that supports both formats. I've found the -R and +R to be pretty good for compatibility playback, but I can still get my -R's for the same price I bought them 2 months ago for 86 cents each in quantities of 25.

[jacknjt]

i dont care at all. sam club has the best dvd+r medias with the cheapest price tha'ts VERBATIM. no shipping hassel and i got my verbatim dvd+rw drive from officemax for 170 after rebates. the sony costs much more than that. i can save the different and go buy another -r burner if i want to when the prices go down and it should be faster than the sony too. GO +R only 1.67/each verbatim disc and it gonna go down very quick.

[Bob W]

i dont care at all. sam club has the best dvd+r medias with the cheapest price tha'ts VERBATIM. no shipping hassel and i got my verbatim dvd+rw drive from officemax for 170 after rebates. the sony costs much more than that. i can save the different and go buy another -r burner if i want to when the prices go down and it should be faster than the sony too. GO +R only 1.67/each verbatim disc and it gonna go down very quick.

You could have bought a 4x DVD-R burner for the same price at OfficeMax. Also I buy 4x DVD-R media for the same price you're paying for 2.4x DVD+R media and I can buy 2x DVD-R for $1.05 each. I don't care which one comes out on top as I have the Sony burner however if history repeats itself just like the Beta vs VHS wars DVD+R will die simply because it's over priced.

[jacknjt]

you r paying for cheap unbrand medias they CANT BE COMPARE to my VERBATIM medias. you pay for what you get. you will have playback problems with the unbranded medias and also you may loses your movie collection. The percentage of disc you brake while burn is much higher. go ahead and go to anystore and loook for a verbatim dvd-r disc that cost less than 2bucks. i bet you wont find any. even if they are in 50 bulk packs. so +r is the way to go if you want good medias and variety to choose from.

problems from cheap medias - shipping cost, bad patch, coasters, bad dye, waste your time, your movies gona be gone. that mean the corrupted medias and the time you wasted gona cost you more than the GOOD DISC i buy.

[Bob W]

Where do you get all those weird stories? I have never had a problem with any of the media I bought playing in any one of the three players I have at home or my several family members DVD drives. I did however buy 15 Verbatim DVD+R's from BestBuy last month that were unusable after 4GB so I had to limit recording to these expensive discs to under 4GB.

The only problem I have had with the media I have purchased from three vendors is my Sony 500A after updating it to the 1.0g firmware will no longer burn at 4x DVD-R media (only 2x) no matter what brand. Lucky for me I also have a Pioneer 105 and the media burns flawlessly at 4x with it.

[jacknjt]

that's really stupid. you paying for 4x medias to burn @2x.
i never had any problem with my dvd+r.
it play in all dvd standalone players and i checked the whole video even at the end of the disc. there still no problem.

[Bob W]

that's really stupid. you paying for 4x medias to burn @2x.
i never had any problem with my dvd+r.
it play in all dvd standalone players and i checked the whole video even at the end of the disc. there still no problem.

I also never had a problem until I updated the firmware. Just goes to show you "If it ain't broke don't fix it".

[_fester_]

Silliest thread I've ever read. I'm pretty sure both formats will live on, for another couple years, till the next big thing happens. Then some of u who have posted in this thread will have wasted so much time arguing, because now with the "Next big ThinG!" drive, u will have to buy a whole new standalone, and burner anyways! That means we all lost! If u are happy with yer burner clap yer hands. If yer happy with yer burner clap yer hands!

My DVD player will play all my DVDS until it breaks. Then i will buy a new standalone, if its a sony it will still support +r, even years from now.Where did i lose out based on media choice? hmmm.....I dont think i did. I have a couple hundred backups and im happy.

[Faustus]

Winner? https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=148519

[JasonK]

i dont care at all. sam club has the best dvd+r medias with the cheapest price tha'ts VERBATIM. no shipping hassel

Hassle? It's more of a hassle to go to Sam's club than to take 20 seconds to order disks that arrive at my door step.

GO +R only 1.67/each verbatim disc and it gonna go down very quick.

ARe you crazy? There's no way I would pay that much. I currently get my disks for 86 cents each in quantity of 25, and if I want to get them in larger quantities, I can get them for 64 cents/each.

shipping cost, bad patch, coasters, bad dye, waste your time, your movies gona be gone

Nope! FREE SHIPPING NO TAX And I'm not having any of those problems, and I'm getting excellent compatibility with standalone drives - just as I have with a few name brands discs I've tried of the various formats. It sounds like you are trying to justify getting ripped off. Oh well, better luck next time.

PS: The Sony drive is great. I got it last December on preorder for about $269 and NO TAX and NO SHIPPING with free DVD+RW disk. NO regrets! Great compatibility with software, media, and playback of media in standalone drives. Excellent support from Sony improving compatibility through firmware updates.

As for one of the formats dying off, don't worry. It's not the same as the old VHS / Beta thing where you couldn't put both tapes in the same player as you can do with the DVD recordable formats for the most part. It takes years to replace a media format in the mainstream consumer market. Look how long it took to replace records & tapes with CDs. And regarding DVD-A an SACD, I went into a CD music store the other day and asked the manager if they had any DVD-A titles, and he didn't know what I was talking about. He led me to their DVD videos. hehe And look how long it's taking for DVD to replace VHS. Is Blue Ray really going to be the answer right away if almost no one has a device to play it back in? Of course not, so you'll still want to burn DVDs. Relax, go with what you have, and let things run their course. There's no reason to panic.

[jacknjt]

QUOTE:
I currently get my disks for 86 cents each in quantity of 25, and if I want to get them in larger quantities, I can get them for 64 cents/each.


AGAIN YOU ARE COMPARING YOUR CHEAP UNBRANDED DISC TO A SUPER DISC LIKE VERBATIM. REMEMBER THIS " YOU PAY FOR WHAT YOU GET".

unless you are saling your movies then cheaper prices or bad quality disc are okay cause the discs are not for you. I always make sure my movies gona last a really long long time.

[defense]

AGAIN YOU ARE COMPARING YOUR CHEAP UNBRANDED DISC TO A SUPER DISC LIKE VERBATIM. REMEMBER THIS " YOU PAY FOR WHAT YOU GET.

I said it three months ago, those DVD+R 2.4x Verbatim are Flawed!

IN some cases you get what you pay for, but in the case of media, as long as you know what is great and what isn't, it does NOT have to be a name brand media to be superior. Many of those less expensive disks are NOT unbranded, and are actually id'd with some of the best companies in the world. Others are a different story.

Check the media posts, mainly mine on the media forum and you'll see that when I first started buying disks they were all VERBATIM. They were actually all Verbatim DVD-R and I NEVER had a SINGLE problem with one of them. Then Best Buy was OUT of those Verbatim DVD-R's one weekend (boy that is a shock ) and I settled for the DVD+R's, and I came to find out that those DVD+R's had MANY FLAWS, primarily with last chapters freezing when burning more then 4 GB's on them. I tested all sorts of methods and it was clear that in every batch of 15 DVD+R's, there were about 3 or so disks which this problem would occur on.

When I burned the same movie to DVD-R, the problem was GONE! Conclusion: Even a NAME BRAND company like Verbatim can have production defects, and that is why I BELIEVE those DVD+R's are so cheap EVERYWHERE you look! Even at Best Buy they have a 100 pack OF THOSE DVD+R for $99!!!! That's not even ONE DOLLAR EACH for those disks. While Best Buy is selling those DIRT CHEAP, the VERY SAME "VERBATIM" DVD-R's at a LOWER speed of 2x sell about 30 of them for 100 BUCKS!

Yea, Verbatim is suckering some people on this one...I feel it,, and i've concluded those DVD+R 2.4x disks ARE HEAVILY FLAWED and that is why I haven't purchased a single one since. Verbatim knows this and they are clearing out their 2.4x DVD+R media to make MORE room for improved 2.4x MEDIA with this flaw fixed, as well as their 4x media. Enjoy those name brand "VERBATIM," just don't say you weren't forewarned.

[mpb]

QUOTE:
I currently get my disks for 86 cents each in quantity of 25, and if I want to get them in larger quantities, I can get them for 64 cents/each.


AGAIN YOU ARE COMPARING YOUR CHEAP UNBRANDED DISC TO A SUPER DISC LIKE VERBATIM. REMEMBER THIS " YOU PAY FOR WHAT YOU GET".

unless you are saling your movies then cheaper prices or bad quality disc are okay cause the discs are not for you. I always make sure my movies gona last a really long long time.

Ritek G04's have been flawless in most peoples' experiences here since their introduction. Most "unbranded" media mailorder is that, and they are both cheaper and better than your Verbatims that you keep harping on. AND they are 4x certified media. Verbatim's time in the sun ended when their (blue) ferro-azo dye CDRs became too slow for modern burners. Matsushita Chemical (which makes Verbatim media) is just biding time for the next project at this point.

Look, we understand you bought a +R burner and it's too late to take it back, so you're hoping you can sway people your way to stave off the extinction of the non-standard format whose discs you are stuck with. The bottom line is that DVD-R is, like CD-R, the default recordable format and the only one made official by the DVD forum. Before you doubt what that means, you must understand that ANY PLAYER that wants to claim it plays recordable DVDs must support DVD-R, but has no obligation to support DVD+R. Many current models do support +, but only because it's not hard to add it in with current technology.

The real reason +R will never remain is because it uses an incorrect flag setting to spoof the player into thinking it is playing "the deeper layer" of a pressed DVD. Of course, there is no actual deeper layer on a DVD+R; this was Philips' method of overcoming the reflectivity problems with early DVD+RW development. Any time you set an incorrect bit, you open yourself to problems of compatibility down the road. I'm guessing you are not even going to read all this, and will respond in a knee-jerk manner to the earlier part of my post. If you do reply, include the phrase "replication format" so we will know whether I am right or not. Back to the explanation. For example, the Sony blu-ray drive does not support DVD+R. Modern Sony DVD players DO play the discs, so why prevent them from working in the BR machine? The answer probably has somethign to do with that incorrect bit setting... a multi-format player like the BR unit *depends* on those bits to tell it what it is playing and how to play it. We may be able to expect that this player will simply not play non-standard media, such as DVD+R/W.

...aaaaanyway, since there are dual-standard burners out there, anyone concerned with losing a "format war" can always buy a Sony DRU500x, while the rest of us who understand formats and how they work will be happy with our $169 Pioneer 105 burner we got at Officemax. (Well, I got my 105 at esbuy back in December and it was $240, but what the hey).

I look forward to your well-thought-out reply.

[jacknjt]

you r talking against yourself.
you already bought a dvd-rw drive even u know that -r gona lose but since you bought it so you keep making your mind think that u did the rite choice.

about the sony blue ray, who knows what format and wat da hell is it. it wont be out until next year or so and do i care??? i know no one gona willing to spend that much money to get a blue ray player/burner. blue ray wont kick in until atleast 5years later/or when there's no more market for dvds.

i dont really care, let sit back relax and wait to see who made the rite choice.

[disturbed1]

mpb,
Hate to nick pick, but it's Mitsubishi Chemical Company (MCC) that make Verbatim. Matsushita Advanced Media (MAM) makes Panasonic media.


Blue Ray may play DVD+R. It's just not supported. There is no offical logo for the +R format. Nobody supports/accredits DVD+R format other than

Over 50 independent software vendors and equipment manufacturers have pledged their support for DVD+RW

Pales in comparison to the DVD Forum

How many members does it have?

About 230 companies participate in the DVD Forum.
http://www.dvdforum.org/memberlist.htm

The geographic distribution of our members, as of October 2000, was as follows:
34% Japanese, 30% Asian, 22% American and 15% European.

It would take less than an hour of research to obtain the knoweldge needed to decide which format will last. DVD Forum, DVDRW Alliance, ISO

According to ISO, DVD-ROM, DVD-R, DVD-RAM is an International Standard for media containing video. No listing for DVD+R. DVD-R's stage in ISO is 60.60 meaning International Standard published.

Why on earth would someone want to produce a DVD Video on a format that isn't supported by ISO, nor the DVD Forum? Maybe they don't know who these groups are

Did you know DVD+R will never have this logo . That's the official logo for DVD-Video, DVD+R can't have it. But it comes on every packaged DVD-R media.