Why is DVD+R better than DVD-R? I dont understand?

[vice86]

I'm a newbie to this whole DVD Recorder stuff and I dont have a recorder yet but I just read the thread about which kind of DVD burner do you own and I was wondering why people were so against DVD+R saying its gonna die and others saying how DVD+R is the future...how is +R better than -R?

[solarfox]

Realistically?

It's not. +R(W) and -R(W) each have their own advantages and disadvantages, and a lot of the arguing can be likened to the great Beta vs. VHS jihad, or the Mac vs. PC wars, or Coke vs. Pepsi, or...

Basically, the -R(W) format currently has the edge in compatibility with the existing base of set-top DVD players (and by "existing base" I don't just mean the ones currently for sale today, but also the ones that people bought a year or two ago and don't plan to replace anytime soon), and also holds the advantage of being the "officially endorsed" recordable-DVD format from the DVD Forum, which (supposedly) sets the standards for DVD discs, players, and formats.

The +R(W) format, on the other hand, holds a small advantage in that it supposedly allows for on-disc editing of material after it's been recorded (if you're using RW discs, of course); and until recently it had the write-speed advantage, allowing for 2.4X burn speeds (that's two-point-four, not twenty-four -- I think we'd all have gone over to +R(W) in a heartbeat if it'd allowed for 24X burn speed!) while -R(W) only allowed for 1X on RW's. (Officially, it only allowed 1X on R's as well; the 2X burn speed was a proprietary Pioneer development.) With the new 4X DVD-R and 2X DVD-RW standards finally set, though, it's lost that advantage (for the moment) in write-once recording, though it still holds that slight edge in rewritables.

And that's really about it, as far as I know.

[Jester700]

In reality, that the Forum "sets standards" doesn't matter. DVD video standards ARE set, so any new burners, +R or -R will comply.

I've never seen a GOOD study of compatibility comparison. Different limited & flawed studies have shown different results. Bottom line, don't use overall compatibility as a criterion - but DO feel free to use compatibility with INDIVIDUAL MACHINES as a very important one. That is, if your set top player only works with -R, you'd be daft to buy a +r only burner.

IMO, the biggie is: -R is cheaper (hardware and media, for now at least) and +R CAN be slightly more flexible (if its couple of advantages matter to you). Personally, I like them both and would be satisfied with either.

[w00tski]

care to explain how my old DVDROM drive, 8x hitachi CANNOT read DVD-R discs even thou the specs say so, yet it CAN read DVD+RW discs even thou the standard didnt even exist when i purchased the drive?

I dont have a very old dvd player, so i dont know how well dvd players cope, but i do have a dvdrom drive that was said to run dvd-r discs that it doesnt. Who's fault is it? DVD forums? no Pioneers? no. Hitachi? yes.

Am i disappointed? very.

But this does demonstrate IMO that the PLUS format works better compatability-wise.

Just sharing my experiences here rather than bring up some hypothetical argument, no bias towards any format as i have the sony burner and can do both anyway.

[Craig Tucker]

But this does demonstrate IMO that the PLUS format works better compatability-wise.

In your case, yes. But you can't take one isolated incident and say that the +R discs have better compatability. I am sure there are many people out there whose drives will not read +R but will read -R, they will say -R has better compatability, for them this is correct, but again you can not base compatability on such a small sample.

[mreed80]

So my question is why are DVD+R so much more expensive? Is there any knowledge as to the price droping?

[suerpflysocal]

i use to be big in the price thing also, but it depends on where you plan on buying your media. If you want to buy in bulk online then yes dvd-r is definitely cheaper because there is more generics or unbranded medias available, including reliable ones as RITEK. But as i was going to my nearby best buy or microcenter just to buy a few media to start, it seems that the prices are about the same or even slightly less for dvd+r at the stores, and the selection is slightly better.

as for rw is a different story. Yes dvd-rw now has 2x burning, but good luck finding media that supports it. Pioneer is the only brnd media i have seen offered at 2x support and at the stores if you can find it will run about $10-15, while even online will run at least $7-10 (not including shipping), while +rw almost all will write at 2.4x and be be found at the store for $6-9 singles and $12-14 for 3 pack.

[Xtasy2002]

Why is DVD+R better than DVD-R?

Simple: It's not. DVD-R is better. Problem solved.

Quick reasons:
* DVD-R has about 5x or 6x as many units in use right now on peoples computers. If you remember VHS vs. Betamax, VHS eventually won and Betamax went away. Because a lot more people had VHS so they bought VHS and used VHS. The same is true of DVD-R. Everyone uses DVD-R.

* DVD-R media is cheaper. There's more DVD-R media being produced.

* DVD-R is almost always more compatable with stand alone players. I have yet to find a single stand alone DVD player that won't play a DVD-R recorded on my Pioneer DVR-A04. While I've seen several +R fail on the same stand alone units.

* DVD-R was first and already has much of the market. +R came out later, but didn't really offer enough features to take the market away. It's just more expensive and less compatable. Who wants that?

[Gazorgan]

Just a sidenote: While VHS 'won', from a specification standpoint, Beta was superior :P Just goes to show you that the Marketing department and not the Engineers ultimately decide we use....

[dun4cheap]

Gazor, well said.

[energy80s]

Actually the Video 2000 system was the most superior (just like DVD-RAM is the best format for home video recording). The reason why VHS took off was because of the TV rental shops stocking re-badged JVC recorders which were all VHS. Betamax and V2000 didn't get a look-in. In the early 1980's most people rented their video recorders rather than buying them as they retailed at around £800 each! Once the video movie rental shops started to appear, most customers were asking for VHS format tapes to play in their rented VHS recorders, so the die was then cast!

This is not the same with DVDR formats, as they are home recording formats (like minidisc) so the winner isn't likely to be as clear cut. Personally I don't think either main format will win, but will remain in circulation until a more versatile format (probably using blue lasers) comes onto the market. You will need to offer more than an hour of DVD quality recording per disc (and get the price of standalone recorders down to under the £200 price point) before DVDR will become mass market.

[dbaker6165]

You forget that beta was also very very expensive... maybe marketing had something to do with vhs out selling beta but cost als o had something to do with it. Vhs are cheaper to make. I also heard (so dont quote me) that Beta also did something stupid like apple computers and made their product exclusiven for a while (meaning only one company makes it) - this preventing competition from making lower priced beta tapes or machines.

[Jester700]

Why is DVD+R better than DVD-R?

Simple: It's not. DVD-R is better. Problem solved.

Quick reasons:
* DVD-R has about 5x or 6x as many units in use right now on peoples computers. If you remember VHS vs. Betamax, VHS eventually won and Betamax went away. Because a lot more people had VHS so they bought VHS and used VHS. The same is true of DVD-R. Everyone uses DVD-R.

* DVD-R media is cheaper. There's more DVD-R media being produced.

* DVD-R is almost always more compatable with stand alone players. I have yet to find a single stand alone DVD player that won't play a DVD-R recorded on my Pioneer DVR-A04. While I've seen several +R fail on the same stand alone units.

* DVD-R was first and already has much of the market. +R came out later, but didn't really offer enough features to take the market away. It's just more expensive and less compatable. Who wants that?

Sony 360. My dad had one. Played +R but not -R.

Again, there have been many tests, none really well done. Overall, there is no compatibility advantage either way.

[digitalmaster]

The DVD+R/+RW format was designed to be compatible with existing DVD-Video players and DVD-ROM drives. It shares as much characteristics of the DVD-Video and DVD-ROM formats as possible (both on a physical level, as wel as on a logical file/video level).

The DVD+RW Alliance is a group of companies that promote the DVD+RW standard. Initially, it consisted of the companies that co-developped the standard: Philips, Hewlett-Packard, Sony, Yamaha, Ricoh, Mitsubishi/Verbatim, Thomson/RCA and Dell. To date, the DVD+RW Alliance consists of dozens of other companies from various fields, such as PC hardware manufacturers (like Fujitsu-Siemens), PC drive manufacturers (like AOpen, BenQ and NEC), disc manufacturers (like Maxell, TDK, Fuji and Ritek), software publishers (like Roxio, Sonic and Ahead) and numurous other companies. Over-all, DVD+RW has the broadest support in the IT industry of all recordable DVD formats

DVD+VR is the format that is used among others by all DVD+RW video recorders. The format is completely based on the DVD-Video format, and hence fully compatible with all existing DVD-Video players. It allows for editing directly on the DVD+RW disc, without the need to rewrite the entire contents of the disc, while remaining fully DVD-Video compatible (a feature unavailable to any other recordable DVD system).

"Microsoft Joins DVD+RW Alliance
Press Release -- The DVD+RW Alliance

Other members of the Executive/Steering Committee are Dell, Hewlett-Packard, Mitsubishi Chemical/Verbatim, Philips, Ricoh, Sony, Thomson and Yamaha
Page 1 of 1

LOVELAND, Colorado (Feb. 24, 2003) -- The DVD+RW Alliance announced that Microsoft Corp. has become its newest member and will be one of nine companies that sit on the Alliance's policy-setting team, the Executive and Steering Committee. Other members of the Executive/Steering Committee are Dell, Hewlett-Packard, Mitsubishi Chemical/Verbatim, Philips, Ricoh, Sony, Thomson and Yamaha.

"In an effort to evaluate providing support for writable DVD and other digital media formats, Microsoft has decided to join the DVD+RW Alliance as a core member," said Tom Phillips, general manager of Microsoft's Windows Hardware Experience Group. "Microsoft is committed to the convergence and compatibility in both PC and consumer electronics applications. Microsoft is happy to become a part of the DVD+RW Alliance and help promote writable DVD standards that are aligned with the Mt. Rainier technology.""
Sources:
http://www.dvdplusrw.org/
http://www.avvideo.com/2003/02_feb/news/dldvdal22403.htm

[BubbaLeroy]

The argument is mute. You could not play a BETA tape in a VHS machine or visa versa. The new DVD players will play both -R and +R.

[digitalmaster]

Good point BubbaLeroy!!!

-Thread closed.

[ProfessorX]

Personally, I've found DVD+R/W to be the most compatible format. I have a Sony DRU-500a and I'm able to burn both DVD-R and DVD+R discs. When experimenting with compatibility, I've found that the DVD+R discs (from Memorex) played in ever single standalone DVD player I've tried them in while the DVD-R's (from Ritek) didn't work in 2 standalone players including my own. I have an Apex AD 3201 which I found to be very compatible with CD and DVD formats like VCD, SVCD, CVD, etc. but the only thing it didn't play were the Ritek DVD-R's which I've read are supposed to be pretty reliable. I'm going to experiment with other brands of DVD-R but I have a feeling it's not the brand but the format that's not being compatible. I'm going to try the Memorex DVD-R's next but I've seen that they're the same price as their DVD+R's at Best Buy so if they do work, there isn't any advantage except that the DVD+R's are more compatible.

[energy80s]

You forget that beta was also very very expensive.

Actually both formats were selling for similar prices. It was purely the video equipment rental chains that won the arguement ... even though Betamax were the first to offer longer recording times, the first to go stereo and to offer the highest quality pictures (VHS HQ wasn't introduced until 1984 to try and compete with the already superior Beta pics.)

[artemio]

So my question is why are DVD+R so much more expensive? Is there any knowledge as to the price droping?

In Italy now prices for DVD-R and DVD+R are exactly the same: I have found VERBATIM DVD-R 2x at 3,40 Euros along with VERBATIM DVD+R. The same applies to IMATION writable medias...

A.

[jacknjt]

if you buy branded name medias dvd+r gona cost less. go for the quality and cheaper in medias. dvd+r is the way to go.

[Supreme2k]

I work for UL, and the Standard for checking DVD players is DVD-R. That's not to say that they cannot include DVD+R compatability, but for recordable media, we check for DVD-R. If the specs say that it can play +R, it has to be able to play -R. The test disc are burnt on a Pioneer 103 (A03).

[version20]

In the few weeks that I have been purchasing blank DVD media it has already become apparent that the prices on the media are evening out.
I buy whatever is cheaper or makes sense at the time (I have a Sony DRU500a so I can burn both).

All four formats play on my Sony stand alone DVD player. And ultimately that compatibility is all that matters to me. This will not be like VHS vs. Beta as many DVD players can play both formats. There is no logical reason why either + or - would go away completely.

For what its worth, I just bought a pack of Verbatim 4x DVD+R discs for the exact same price I paid a week ago for a pack of DVD-R discs that were only 2.4x. I like to save time when I can so I went with +R today.

*shrug*

Really, it is completely subjective. Use what works for you.

-v20

[solarfox]

Just for the record:

Just a sidenote: While VHS 'won', from a specification standpoint, Beta was superior

This is a technological urban legend which is simply not true. The difference in signal and image quality between Beta and VHS was so tiny that it could only be seen with laboratory equipment -- and was, according to an article in the April 1984 issue of "Stereo Review", less than the variation in quality seen between any two different models of VCR in general (even two different models within a particular manufacturer's own product line!) -- so any difference in quality anyone thought they saw on their 1970's-1980's era, consumer-grade TV sets was entirely due to either these manufacturing tolerances, or to their own imagination.

[neonflx]

If your problems is that you can't decide what burner to buy, then just buy the sony burner that can write to all formats, i think that was your intent when you ask, with the sony you can write to -r(w), +r(w) so hey you will never be out of style!! at least for now hahaha

[w00tski]

i personally think the way of the future with dvd burners is dual format writers like the sony. There already are a bunch of companies releasing them soon, and i dont really think there is a MAJOR cost increase over producing a drive that can do both formats. I tend to think of single format burners as first generations DVD writers, because judging by the popularity and shortage of sony units available, it is the way to go.

Unlike Betamax vs VHS, the discs are physically the same size and pretty much perform the same. All it takes is for the drive to deal with both formats. Id wait till june/july and see what other companies offer dual format writers and go with one of those. Media should be far more mature by then also, and prices drop a little.

[PhilipL]

Withdrawn

[-jsl-]

In addition + now has Microsoft at the helm as they have got themselves on the board of the +RW Alliance. Why? Because Microsoft can use the format as a testing ground for Digital Rights Management software and anti-piracy hardware patents as designed by Microsoft and partners to license to interest parties (i.e. Hollywood and Software manufacturers.) +RW may become a pay-per-view and pay-per-record format! Considering that 90+ percent of usage of DVD recordable is for “backing” up DVD movies it is not hard to see the format dropping like a stone if these technologies get integrated into it. Long live DVD-RW/DVD-R.

First you make complaints that the site "dvdplusrw.org" is full of "rubbish and lies" and the next moment you write this complete BS yourself. Well, at least you got a vivid imagination...
And please, explain how the fact that Microsoft has joined DVD+RW Alliance will stop users from backing up DVD movies to DVD+R/RW media?

BTW, I would say that Hollywood has got much more influence over DVD forum than over DVD+RW Alliance:

The digital media where the data do not wear through generations of copies. How to secure the copy rights pose more importance than ever. Pioneer paid the attention from the start to develop DVD-R/RW. Illegal copies are not only for infringing the rights but also discourage the publication of DVD Movie Contents. This may also lead to the limit of personal TV and data copies in turn. At DVD Forum, updated copy protection technology is being discussed and the decision is to be implemented in DVD-R/RW to secure the rights of both parties. A format which is not acknowledged by the DVD Forum, is missing this view point. DVD-R/RW is ready for CPRM which allows one time only recording of BS Digital Broadcasting program. This functionality is not yet equipped in the format yet. The current broadcast is going to be digitized in future. Copy Rights issue is likely to pose more significant questions for Writable DVD. Pionner is ready to update Copy Protection method accordingly to the DVD Forum. This indicates that DVD-R/RW are the safe DVD format for the future.

http://www.pioneer.co.jp/dvdrrw_e/why/why_2.html

[PhilipL]

Withdrawn

[Bob W]

"For what its worth, I just bought a pack of Verbatim 4x DVD+R discs for the exact same price I paid a week ago for a pack of DVD-R discs that were only 2.4x. I like to save time when I can so I went with +R today."

I also bought three packs of the same 4x media or 15 discs. In my case all 15 were defective in that they had tiny voids or bubbles at the edge of the discs They worked only if the recorded files were less than 3.9GB anything after that and I got errors or the burn would just stop.

[-jsl-]

Digital Rights Management is a lot more than an encryption system!

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/drm.aspx

Please, what has Windows Media's DRM to do with backing up DVD movies? Or with Mt Rainer which (together with marketing I suspect) is what Microsoft's deal with DVD+RW Alliance is mainly about.

I also bought three packs of the same 4x media or 15 discs. In my case all 15 were defective in that they had tiny voids or bubbles at the edge of the discs They worked only if the recorded files were less than 3.9GB anything after that and I got errors or the burn would just stop.

Verbatim has a generous warranty so I suggest you send the discs in for replacement. I've recorded a full 4.37 GB DVD to Verbatim 4x DVD+R without problems and with perfect playback on my DVD player so you must have received a bad batch.