Canon ZR-45: Almost Perfect, But Not Quite!!!

[mpb]

Hi all!

Well, I used this forum to decide my camcorder purchase... not lightly does a person drop half a grand... and I figured I would report back with my results. I used to capture with an analog ATI card.

I have now had my Canon ZR-45 miniDV camcorder for a week, and I have tested it up and down the block on capturing. It's good. Oh, my, is it ever good. It's so good I realize I don't need the ATI AIW Radeon 8500DV that I bought to go with it... so that's going back to the store. Once you've captured through the 1394 with a DV passthru, you'll NEVER go back. I'll just grab a regular video card for gaming, maybe a radeon 9700, and a firewire card.

As many of you know, the Canon ZR-40 and ZR-45 have built-in Time Base Correctors linked to an A/V analog-to-digital passthru. This, folks, is the whole shooting match. The Sony TRV25 and 27 have this also, but cost a great deal more. The cheapest I could spot the TRV25 I wanted was well north of $580, while I managed to score the ZR-45 at BEST BUY of all places, unopened, at $469.99. I know you can get a few bucks off that price from several web shops, but it was well worth it to me to be able to take it back locally if it was defective, etc etc. The ZR-40 was $449.99, and I opted to sport the extra $20 to have a memory-card drive in the camera for digicam purposes (this is the only real difference between the 40 and 45).

One thing, just one, that the Canon fails to do, is to strip macrovision. The Sony TRV-25/27 do have this feature. When you try to passthru a macro'ed tape, the Canon camcorder stops the A/V and says "Copyright protected, dubbing prevented". I will be testing a variety of macro-stripping boxes between VCR and DV to see if this eliminates the problem. Even with that "feature" enabled, I still only had problems with two tapes out of over fifty - and both of them were suspected to be problematic before I got started. To me, $110+ isn't worth it just to add one feature, when the tapes in question that I wanted to back up will probably be released on DVD eventually anyway. (King's X Chronicles and Fates Warning APSOG). And even more so, once I had finished the captures, the feature would never get used again. Not very good return on my money, if I had gone that route.

I have a great many old concert and video music tapes, and archiving them for safekeeping was the primary goal of getting into video capture to begin with. I quickly learned over the last year that many tapes are so damaged due to wear and time that the digital capture card couldn't reliably interpret their signal - so there would be flagging, frame loss, stutters, and other artefacts in the video, ruining it completely, when the tape looks OK playing through to a television. The answer to this is a time-base corrector, which interprets the analog tape, errors and all, and corrects the frames and fields, feeding them on the precise time clock through the 1394 to the PC, and accounting for corrupted frames in the process.

When I'm feeding damaged tape through the Canon into the 1394 port into DVIO, I get ZERO frame drops, and the tapes literally look better (in many cases) than I've ever seen them. I recorded a tape of Rush from 1975 playing Anthem and Fly By Night on ABC, a tape that was all but unviewable under ANY circumstances, and the improvement in my final file is really remarkable. Obviously, the tape was so far gone that there was a limit to what the Canon's TBC could accomplish. On tapes that were already clean, and on television broadcasts, the quality is fantastic. For TV recording, skip the ATI's built-in tuner and just attach your TiVo to the DV-cam, or else the tuner from your VCR if that's all you have.

The ZR-45 is as functional as any mini-DV camcorder in terms of filming and so forth. I have had a very easy time shooting footage around the house and of the various people I know, and I'm happy so far with the digicam function. It's not as good as a posh standalone digicam, but it's far better than the "two-for-one" principle would usually dictate.

The verdict: Expensive compared to just getting a capture card, but it's clear from the results of my work so far that this is the One Video Capturing Investment that you can make that will last you the longest and have the most tangible results... aside from maybe your DVD-RW drive (I suggest the Pioneer 105).

This is really astounding... combined with the release of DVD2One, my suite of video applications is shrinking fast. All I have left that I need to use are PrimoDVD, DVD Decrypter, DVD2One, DVIO, TMPGenc, DMF, and Premiere. Seven applications sounds like a lot in terms of your average computer task (since Office, by comparison, is just five plus some appendages) but for the flexibility to work with video in any format and output for web sharing, DVD archiving, and full editing capability in between, seven isn't that much. And my system is a year old and still does this stuff very well.

Anyway, a huge thumbs-up for this camcorder, and for those new to the game, a look at a video capturing system that does it all pretty well right now, and didn't cost much... hopefully this information will help you with your future purchases, and this was the test system for the camcorder review posted above, for reference purposes:

Pentium 4 - 1.6ghz, 133 FXSB
1GB PC-133 SDRAM
ASUS P4B motherboard
ATI AIW Radeon 8500DV - will replace with normal AGP-4/8 video card
Pioneer DVR-105
120GB x 2 hard drives (IBM 120GXPs, raid striped)
Canon ZR-45 feeding in the video

[tumbar]

I am a proud Canon ZR-40 owner

Hey I got mine for 407 shipped out of new york. I generally like canon products and to be honest it was the cheapest entry level I could find with fairly high user comments. Got it for Christmas and I too am very happy with it. I also purchased a Pyro Pro firewire card from www.videoguys.com, came with dvdworkshop and couple of other good programs fro 79.99. Rounded it out with a canopus ADVC 100, absolutely 0 frame drop from analog source and of course 0 drop frame from dv.

Heck I can import and export anything, and the quality is...outstanding!

Bought a new, faster computer 2.4 gig, with 1 gig of memory plus a pioneer104 burner. Guess I got 2,000 in the camera and in the computer.

Love the hobby, actually trying to figure out how I can make it pay....VHS conversions?

Ideas?

Jim

[yg1968]

Jim, why would you need the Canopus ADVC-100, if your Canon ZR-40 digital camcorder has a passthrough feature? In your situation, the Canopus ADVC-100 would be duplication.

mpb, did you experience the colour washout that vhelp gets on his Canon digital camcorder?

Anyways, I opted for the Sony TRV-25. I believe that it is worth the extra money. Although it's hard for me to compare given that I have never tried the Canon. The fact that it defeats macrovision is a welcomed feature. I normally prefer to buy a film on DVD than to make a DVD from a VHS casette. But there is a number of films that I own that are only available on VHS.

I have also bought the HP DVD Writer 200i. (Had the Sony DRU-500A been available, I would have gotten it instead of the HP 200i).

I have also bought the following programs: Dazzle DVD complete (which I use for everything except encoding where I prefer to use TMPGEnc). Anyways, I find this setup to be hassle free.

[superblast]

Wow, this is pretty creepy! I've been lurking here for a while trying to get the lowdown on quality analog capture and was just going to post my first question tonight. I narrowed down my choices to the Canopus ADVC-100 or a Canon ZR-40 camcorder. MPB, your post really answered a lot of my questions. One of them was if the ADVC-100 has a TBC built in (I'm guessing it does not). The macrovision info is a bit disappointing but I don't have too many commercial VHS tapes to transfer so it shouldn't be too much of a problem. If I remember correctly, laserdiscs do not have macrovision (coincidentally, I've got a couple of Rush laserdiscs to transfer!) Thanks for the great write-up!

Jim, you'd be able to answer my ultimate question (and probably many other readers). Since you have a camcorder with analog pass through AND the ADVC-100, you could best answer whether one is better than the other in terms of analog transfer. Have you done any comparisons?

[vhelp]

yg1968,

why is everyone always picking on me, he he..

Actually, I got my ZR-10 for $199 at CompUSA last year - floor model.
So, I was VERY lucky, he, he..

Macrovision:
Actually, its ok.. As it's a thing of the past, w/ my ADVC-100, but
my Canon ZR-10 produces the same issues w/ that Copywrite... notice and
shuts off the recording.

I have two choice of removing MV, either pass source through my
TBC-100 (not the 1000 standalone, which is the same thing basically but less $$)
or, my ADVC-100. Just depends on what I'm doing and where I'm at.

Color Washout:
as yg1968 puts it, plauged me w/ my Canon ZR-10 unit. Because this
was my only DV type of unit, I blaimed ALL DV type units of all sorts.
My ZR-10 may have ben either damamged or adjustments needed alignment tuning,
or something else, but I've done comparison testings, and I found that my
ADVC-100 produced sharpest, clearest and colorful output, surpassing my ZR-10.
So, weather it was my ZR-10 to blaim (condition there of) or the model or firewire
card or whatever, it doesn't really matter all that much any mores. I'm perfectly
happy w/ my current setup.

Currently though, my ZR-10 is suffering some minor symtoms, video tape heads
have to be constantly run through a DH cleaner (though warning states should
not be used more than three times) I just haven't gotten around to sending
it to service just yet (I'm lazy) On some days, I can go through a full tape
w/out any issue, and on others, (pending on tape) the whole tape will show
lines and/or intermixed video from a previous recording. Sounds like a head
job to me he he.. but other than that, I can live w/ it till I move my rump..
unless I'm in trouble ?

-vhelp

[mpb]

MPB, your post really answered a lot of my questions. One of them was if the ADVC-100 has a TBC built in (I'm guessing it does not). The macrovision info is a bit disappointing but I don't have too many commercial VHS tapes to transfer so it shouldn't be too much of a problem. If I remember correctly, laserdiscs do not have macrovision (coincidentally, I've got a couple of Rush laserdiscs to transfer!) Thanks for the great write-up!

No problemo!

Just two things you'll want to know:

Laserdiscs do not have copy protection of any kind, I am happy to report.

Also, save your effort on the Rush LDs, because they are all being released on genuine DVD this year, as well as their new DVD "Rush in Rio". The only one of their old LDs not being reprised is Through the Camera Eye, of which the songs are being bonus tracks on the other DVDs. You can already see this on the Chronicles DVD which has Afterimage and Enemy Within as bonus videos. I am guessing that you have a lot of Rush TV recordings and bootlegs like I do, and that's what I'm concentrating on now. Then, it's on to Dream Theater, Pink Floyd, Live, and all the rest. Good luck!!!

[Slomer]

wow.. you guys are weird. I always thought about buying a canon zr camera (and recently convinced a friend to) so I could SHOOT film I pretty much thought most people using them to convert vhs and such were suburbanite type with old home movies. Go fig. How do you like these cams (zr-40/45) for actual filming?


also, anyone ever notice how weird the word weird is? I before e except after w? WTH?

[mpb]

mpb, did you experience the colour washout that vhelp gets on his Canon digital camcorder?

I am not entirely sure if what I saw was the same thing you are referring to. I had a tape where some segments were just way too far gone. Recorded in about 1979 in VHS mono, and degraded since then. The color was not stable as the TBC struggled to make corrections.

However, this was on THE WORST tape that I had to feed through. I had some tapes from the same era that had endured less damage (presumably from being played fewer times over the years, etc) and they transferred very clearly through the rig.

[mrtristan]

Thanks for the review. I'm looking to buy a mini-DV soon. I was looking at the Canon Z-45 before. I own a Canon Powershot S30 (actually my company owns it...) and I really love the camera.

The Sonys are reasonably priced at the local mall, though. Canon dealerships aren't very prevalent over here.

[yg1968]

Sony has just come out with new models in January. So you may want wait until your local store has these newer models.

See www.sony.com or more precisely:

http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/USD/SY_BrowseCatalog...nxCh2&Dept=dcc

[superblast]

Ha! Yeah, I see your point. I'm rationalizing it much the way mpb did. I could pay $300 for the ADVC-100 or $375 for a ZR40 from a semi-respectable online dealer and get a camera and TBC out of it. I don't see a real need for a camcorder but I'm sure it'll come in handy in the future. It's probably one of those things that I'll find more uses for once I own it.

Oh, and I agree that weird is a weird word.

mpb - thanks for the tip on the Rush DVDs... that'll save me some time!

wow.. you guys are weird. I always thought about buying a canon zr camera (and recently convinced a friend to) so I could SHOOT film I pretty much thought most people using them to convert vhs and such were suburbanite type with old home movies. Go fig. How do you like these cams (zr-40/45) for actual filming?


also, anyone ever notice how weird the word weird is? I before e except after w? WTH?

[mp3superfreak]

I've had a ZR10 for almost 2yrs and love it! It's only drawback is low-light filming. It produces a very grainy picture. However, I have some daytime footage that people mistake for PRO gear (well, maybe not PRO, but needless to say they were impressed). One caveat...you must be STEADY, so use a tripod!

[mpb]

wow.. you guys are weird. I always thought about buying a canon zr camera (and recently convinced a friend to) so I could SHOOT film I pretty much thought most people using them to convert vhs and such were suburbanite type with old home movies. Go fig. How do you like these cams (zr-40/45) for actual filming?

Hehehe. Yes, rest assured, I do actually shoot film with it. It's just that camcorders have already advanced to the point where their optics and feature set are pretty well ensconced for now. Image stabilizers, color viewscreens, good optical zoom ratios... you can find these on any of Canon or Sony's present models, even the older digital-8's and hi-8's.

Essentially... it rocks for filming, and it's pretty darned good as a digital camera too. That covers all my bases. The A/V passthru and TBC were just the clinchers that sealed the deal.

I've made some nice money on the side in recent months filming weddings with a friend's hi-8 unit, and then feeding into the PC and editing up a DVD. Now that I can do it in miniDV, the quality is just going to skyrocket. I can't wait!!!! I plan to buy Canon's low-power-draw toplight and shotgun mic just to maximize my filming options.

Best of luck, whatever your projects are!!!

[trashbin]

I've been looking at purchasing a DV cam for this purpose and read these posts with interest. I have searched on the web for details on the Canon ZR-45 in Australia and can find none so am suspecting a different model number.

What I would like to know is if this description is what I should be looking for:

- Analogue line in/out function converts analogue video signal into digital plus real time analogue converter that does the conversion on the fly without recording to tape
- DV line in/out function enabling lossless duplication and transfer to computers for non linear editing

as there is a model in OZ called the Canon MV500i DV which looks similar to the ZR-45 and has the above description in its features.

with thanks....mordwid

[mpb]

I've been looking at purchasing a DV cam for this purpose and read these posts with interest. I have searched on the web for details on the Canon ZR-45 in Australia and can find none so am suspecting a different model number.

What I would like to know is if this description is what I should be looking for:

- Analogue line in/out function converts analogue video signal into digital plus real time analogue converter that does the conversion on the fly without recording to tape
- DV line in/out function enabling lossless duplication and transfer to computers for non linear editing

as there is a model in OZ called the Canon MV500i DV which looks similar to the ZR-45 and has the above description in its features.

with thanks....mordwid

That sounds exactly right. The feature in question was described the same way on the feature tag on the ZR-40/45, so I think you're safe to acquire that camcorder. Good luck!!

[whiplash]

I should learn to use the search function, I started another thread where I was trying to decide between the ADVC-100 and the Canon Elure 40MC. I am looking to do simular things to what you are doing.

I am concerned with loss of audio sync. From you description it doesn't sound like it should be a problem. I would like to know if you have captured 1 to 2 hours of analog video through the ZR45 and seen any audio sync problems towards the end of the capture.

Mark

[mpb]

I should learn to use the search function, I started another thread where I was trying to decide between the ADVC-100 and the Canon Elure 40MC. I am looking to do simular things to what you are doing.

I am concerned with loss of audio sync. From you description it doesn't sound like it should be a problem. I would like to know if you have captured 1 to 2 hours of analog video through the ZR45 and seen any audio sync problems towards the end of the capture.

Mark

I can give you even better data than that.

6-hour EP VHS tape, damaged and in need of tons of TBC - perfect sync.
Overnight capture of MTV2 fed thru ZR-45, over 110 gigs - perfect sync.
2-hour laserdisc, including auto-reverse interruption - perfect sync.

Every time I finish a file, I immediately play it and jump around in it via the scrollbar to see if it syncs up in the middle and at the end. As long as it does, it's safe to estimate the rest of the file is in sync.

Basically, I have yet to have any sync problems regardless of circumstances, condition of source material, or any of that. I'm capturing with DVIO (free download linked at left) into the PC that you will see on my Profile/PC-Info tag. It has essentially worked right from the grip. And my PC is over a year old, it's not too expensive to build one like it if you had to.

I use TMPGenc to convert to MPEG1/2 or Virtualdub to convert to XviD from there, and then share files (or burn media) as applicable.

Good luck in your efforts!

[jarroyo]

I have my eye on one of these ZR45s but I am also considering the ZR65. Do you know if the ZR65 is a replacement for the 45? Does it have the TBC? I could not see anywhere in the specs for the ZR45 or ZR65 anything that mentioned the TBC, so how did you know it had a TBC?

Also, how does the ZR45 do in low light situations? Thanks

[catdog6]

Do any of you Canon ZR owners have a problem with motor noise?

I've been looking at the new ZR's and was wondering if I need to
be concerned about that.


Thanks,

Kevin Trotter

[Nolonemo]

I bought a ZR-40 and returned it for a Sony TRV-18 because of the motor noise, which was intrusive unless you played back at very low volumes. I did head to head and the Sony was MUCH quieter. However, the Canon lets you choose shutter speed, and has true manual white balance, unlike the Sony.

[unclebud]

While I'm a happy Canon ZR25MC owner, I just bought the Pinnacle Studio Deluxe for my new PC.

Studio 8 software sucks, dosen't capture every time I try so I got Scenalyzer Live and it works perfectly with the AVDV card from Pinnacle. I can capture anything, even with Macrovision or anything else to DV avi's. No sync problem either. Picture quality is very good also.

I use Vegas 4 for editing and creating a DVD quality MPG2 file. Ulead DVDWS to create DVD's.

All is well in my DVD creation process.
UB

[yg1968]

mpb,

How do you know if a digital camcorder has a Time Based Corrector (TBC)? Is it any camcorder that has a passthrough feature? What about digital noise reduction (DNR)? Will any camcorder with a passthrough feature have it?

I remember that you told me that the Sony had a TBC but I couldn't find it in the specs. The specs mention something about having a time code but nothing about tbc.

[yg1968]

I think that I may have found the answer:

One advantage of DV camcorders and
VTRs is that they all incorporate time-base correction by their very nature. You
won't need to use a TBC on DV sources to maintain quality, though the proc amp
controls built into some TBCs can be useful for correcting image problems.

See at the bottom of page 37 of this excellent DV guide:
http://www.cilect.org/dvsuccess.pdf

I am not sure but I think that you can conclude from this that all digital camcorders have a TBC that can improve old analog tapes when used with their video in or their passthrough feature (if they have this feature).