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  1. Lisa b/anybody

    could you write a guide or point me to where I can find one for how to set up the time warping in goldwave so I can get my audio to sync with my video I haven't had much luck with Acid Agents guide (Havent got to grips with Sound forge)

    Thanks for any assistance

    PS didn't mean to sound ungrateful Acid Agent - think u're doing a great job
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    Hi there,

    first of all thanks to everyone who posted here, especially Acidagent for the great help with problems I had in some of my video files. However, I changed Acidagent's method a little bit to make it more accurate, because I'm not a big fan of trial-and-error searching around for the right sample rate, and there are quite some numbers which can be used to calculate more accurate rates and values. Here is what I've done:
    For the following explanations I'm also using the tools
    VirtualDub 1.5.10
    SoundForge 7
    TMPGEnc
    just like Acidagent in his guide.

    Pre-Note
    Thanks to Lisa B. for pointing this out, I forgot to mention in my original post that the following process makes the assumption and only works if your video and audio duration are different but both belong to the exact same amount of time!! If your audio and video have the same length, this method won't change anything.


    The Problem
    To fix gradually loss of audio/video synch in MPEG-1 video stream.


    The REAL Problem
    Fine, so your video is losing synch towards the end of the file, but do you really know what causes this problem? Everything talked about in this thread assumes that your problem is related to the audio portion of your stream. However, let's not forget that the problem can also be video related, the most common cause being bad frames or edited files, for example cutting out commercials at intermediate frames can easily get the audio out of synch.


    Finding the Cause
    As anyone here knows, there is no one-button fix-everything solution (yet). It takes some time and playing around to find the cause for your problem, and often you end up trying different methods hoping that one might fix it. A big helper for situations like that are the numerous tools out there which tell you all kinds of information about your file, video and audio sample rates, number of samples and frames, resolution etc. This information can help you to find the cause for your problem.

    As described by AcidAgent, the easiest way to detect gradually loss of audio and video synch is to use VirtualDub and play the file at different positions and watch what happens to the audio.


    Gathering Information
    Using VirtualDub, you can view the most useful information when opening the File -> File Information... menu item. Here an example for a file I had and some explanations (I don't list all the information, only what we need right now):
    Frame size, fps: 352x240, 29.970 fps: While the video standard and frame rate has become less important because most dvd players play almost anything, this information is important later when we have to remux our video stream and need to select the right video profile in tools such as TMPGEnc.
    Video # of frames (time): 75788 (42:08 ): This information is very useful and will be used later on when determining the error between audio and video duration.
    Audio Format: 44 KHz, 224Kbps layer II: Except for the bitrate you should expect audio to be in 44 KHz most of the time. However, it's always good to check on that and make sure you haven't gotten some weird file.
    Audio # of frames: 96608: This is the second piece of information which can be used to detect the exact off-synch.

    Using SoundForge, we can get some more information about our audio stream. I simply extracted the Audio from my video file with VirtualDub by using the File -> Save WAV.. menu option. I then opened this file in SoundForge, which tells me in the status bar in the lower right corner the following:
    44,100 Hz, 16 Bit, Stereo, 42:03.637


    Doing the Math
    In my case, the video length came out to be 42 minutes and 8 seconds. However, SoundForge tells us that the audio length is only 42 minutes and 3.637 seconds, which is a difference of 4.363 seconds. This is the exact amount of time audio and video are out of synch at the end of the file (which means in the middle of the file it should be about 2 seconds off, since it is starting in synch at the beginning and then gradually loses the synch).


    Fixing the Audio
    Now all we need to do is use this information to resample the audio. SoundForge has a nice function under the Process menu called Time Stretch, which changes the length of an audio file without affecting the pitch (I guess in the same way Goldwave does). We just have to input the audio length we would like to have, and let SoundForge do the work.

    Now, I'm a real accuracy freak, so when SoundForge asked me to enter the length with 3 digit floating point precision, I didn't just want to take the 42 minutes and 8 seconds. So I recalculated the exact video length by using the number of frames and the framerate: 75788 / 29.970 = 42 minutes and 8.795 seconds. To most people this .795 seconds might seem insignificant, but the human brain is very sensitive when it comes to slight off-synch in video files. And since SoundForge offers it, why not make use of it!

    I entered the time in the Final Time field in SoundForge and left the Mode at A01 Music 1. I haven't tried different modes here, but for a small change like that there shouldn't be much difference to other modes. A click on Ok initiates the process, which shouldn't take very long. On my machine, the time stretch took 1 minute and 10 seconds.

    After the procedure is done, we can see the new audio duration in the status bar: 42 minutes 8.606 seconds!! Although we entered 8.795 seconds, it came out at 8.606 seconds, which is due to the sample length (you cannot have half a sample or something like that, so the resampling is done to the closest time possible). The difference between audio and video will now be 0.189 seconds at the end of the file, which is small enough to not be visible to the viewer.


    Testing the Results
    After saving the file in SoundForge, we want to test the results to make sure it worked as we want it. So we go back to VirtualDub and chose WAV Audio.. from the Audio menu. We select the file we just saved and are now able to check the results by playing the file at different positions just like we did in the very beginning to detect the loss of synch. Voila, the loss of synch is gone!


    Merging Audio and Video
    All we have to do now is to mux our video and audio together again to get a single file. For that I use TMPGEnc, where we cancel the Wizard and then open the video file. When we do that, it automatically choses the same file for the audio source, since we still have the original audio in the file. So we simply click on the Browse button for Audio and select our fixed file. I then Load the profile which is right for my video file, and as we learned from the file information in the beginning, my file was a NTSC VideoCD, so I chose that profile.


    The Finish Line
    One TMPGEnc is done creating the new file, we are done, and there should be no detectable off-synch between audio and video left in the file!!


    Some Statistics
    Here a little overview how long the whole process took for me:
    - Open the file in VirtualDub and check for loss of synch: 3 minutes.
    - Save the WAV in VirtualDub: 1 minute.
    - Open the WAV in SoundForge: 30 seconds.
    - Time Strech the WAV in SoundForge: 1 minute.
    - Check result in VirtualDub: 2 minutes (take your time for this step, if you rush and it's still not good, you lose time doing the whole thing again).
    - Remux Audio and Video in TMPGEnc: 30 minutes.
    - Check results one more time: 2 minutes.
    - Total time: 39 minutes 30 seconds


    Note
    The process described above worked fine for me (and didn't require any trying around and finding the right sample rate!!), and if it didn't work for you and you still followed all the steps described, then your problem might be of a different nature. Please don't hesitate to post any results, problems etc., maybe we can work it out together!


    I hope I could help and contribute a little to the help I have received from you guys! Thanks to everyone,

    Legend
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  3. Member LisaB's Avatar
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    Legend,

    It would be nice if one could remove the trial-and-error determination of audio synch, but to do so requires that one make an assumption - namely, that the durations of the video and audio data correspond to exactly the same physical length of time. The process you outline simply makes the video and audio durations the same.

    All,

    There is a very quick test that one can do to determine whether or not Legend's method will work. VirtualDub can actually change the video framerate so that the audio and video durations are the same. If you go to the VirtualDub menu (Video -> Framerate), you can make a source rate adjustment...it changes the framerate of the video so that it is the same length as the audio. In parenthesis, VDub will show you what the new framerate will be (note that this value is inaccurate if your vid has VBR audio).

    Take a look at the number in parenthesis - if it is the same as the current rate, then you can immediately conclude that Legend's method will not work for this case. If it is something different, then go ahead and change it. Now, check a few places in the video -- see if the audio is in synch. If it is, then that means that the video and audio really do correspond to the same physical length of time, and thus Legend's method would work. However, if this is a video file that you intend to only play on your computer, then you don't even have to go through all the work of Legend's method - just save out a new avi using direct stream copy...total time about 2 minutes! On the other hand, if this is an mpeg, or if you intend to convert the avi to an mpeg sometime in the future, then you would be better off going through Legend's method to make the audio the same duration as the video.

    Remember, Legend's method is not really a method of correcting audio synch - it is a method to make the audio the same length as the video. In some cases, this will fix the audio synch. You can very quickly and easily test this theory using VirtualDub.

    Even Acidagent's method makes an assumption - namely, that the audio is perfectly in synch with the video at the beginning of the clip. This is usually but not always true -- it's easy enough to check, however.

    If your video is out of synch at the beginning, then you will have to determine audio synch at *two* points in the video -- preferably one point near the beginning and one point near the end. If the desynch is the same at both points, then you have a case of constant audio desynch - in other words, the audio is simply shifted with respect to the video. If the desynch is different, let's say d1 and d2, then the audio is both shifted and stretched with respect to the video. So if d1 and d2 was measured at points A and B in the video, then you must determine STRETCH = 1 + ((d2-d1)/(B-A)) and then SHIFT = d1 - A*(STRETCH-1). Remember that d is positive when video is *ahead* of audio. Finally, to fix this video, you must use Goldwave Timewarp to stretch the audio by the factor (1/STRETCH), and then trim the amount SHIFT off of either the audio or the video, depending on whether SHIFT is positive or negative. If this is an MPEG video, then you will not want to trim the video - instead you can insert blank audio using Goldwave.

    I had to do exactly this process with an AVI not long ago...

    Finally, as Legend pointed out, sometimes audio is out-of-synch because of bad edits/joins/frames. In this case, there will be an abrupt change in audio synch at the bad points. None of the above methods will work for something like this. You must chop the video into parts, separating it at the bad points, and then fix the synch for each part separately using methods outlined throughout this thread.

    Lisa B.
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  4. I'm a Super Moderator johns0's Avatar
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    The way i take guess work out of stretching or shrinking the timeline is i input the video in virtualdub and scan the file to near the end where you last see people talking and choose audio/interleaving and input into audio skew correction the value i need and then click on the output playback to see how close the sync is and then when it spot on i note done the value i used and then go to goldwave and use that value in timewarp.Works the same with audio shifts in parts where you have to add audio.Just check where the audio goes out of sync and just add the seconds with goldwave,dont need to chop video.
    I think,therefore i am a hamster.
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    Lisa,

    thanks for your additional comments. Actually I meant to add to my posting that it makes certain assumptions, but then I forgot later while I was writing it.

    It's absolutely correct that my method only makes both video and audio have the same length, and if the durations are already equal, then the method won't produce any results, that's very important! So as Lisa wrote, please check your file in different places and try to figure out exactly the actual problem you are facing. Also, it only works if the audio and video portions in your file actually belong to the exact same amount and period of time. This means, there are scenarios where your audio duration is longer than your video duration, but the file is NOT out of synch. What happens then is that at the end of the video stream, the audio is just cut off, although there might be audio data left for another couple of seconds. Now if you have a situation where your audio is out of synch but would also have overlapped at the end, then the method I described above will make the audio be too fast, meaning it will be ahead of the video. Then you will have to find out how much the overlapping part was to find the right audio length and fix it.

    As I said before, and as Lisa emphasized, there are so many different scenarios which can cause the audio and video to lose synch, especially when editing, cutting, transcoding between formats, having bad frames or unusual frame rates etc.

    At some point in time it would probably be best to have kind of a matrix which tells you what to do in which situation, where you look up your video and audio problem and know what to do. Or even better, it would be nice if future video standards/formats included timecodes for audio and video which are maintained throughout transcoding and editing procedures. Then again, if you have a gradual synch loss which is due to a slightly off audio sample rate, then the timecodes will already be set wrong in the original file, and you are left with the same desynch problem AND faulty timecodes.

    Also, you are lucky if the same solution works for more than one file, I had cases were I had 10 erroneous files and the problem was different in each of them.

    Good luck to everyone, keep posting your questions / comments!

    Legend

    P.S.: I edited my original posting to point out Lisa's comments.
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    reading through this post was interesting but users who want to transfer their video to SVCD shouldn`t need a degree in Advanced Logic and Sound Technology to make the audio of their video stay in synch.
    Lets be honest here. The original is fine. The captured AVI`s are fine.
    It is TMPGEnc that does the encoding and TMPGEnc that has this Achilles Heel. It`s like advertising a car where the steering wheel gradually comes loose and you have to follow complex diagrams to make minor adjustments so you can stay on the road. Maybe I was too simplistic. But this thread is too complicated.
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  7. It's definately way too complicated but I need help and this appears to be the thread to do it on:

    I had a 77 minute RM file that I wanted to convert to VCD. I tried several Real Media converters and they wouldn't even touch this file (read: crash). I finally used Boilsoft's RM Converter and chose RM-2-VCD and it made an MPEG. However... the video was in hyper speed so I had to stretch it back out to 77 minutes in length. I searched and found Virtual Dub has a setting under Video>Frame Rate called "Change so video and audio durations match". Doing this made an AVI with a pretty good picture. However... The audio starts several seconds late at the very beginning and graually gets worse. At about 30 minutes it is off 2 minutes and then at about 45 minutes it is off 3 and at about 60 minutes it is off 4 minutes. In other words it loses 1 minute for every 15 minutes of footage, so from start to end it loses about 5 minutes.

    I've tried converting directly to [non-VCD] MPEG with RM Converter and it either crashed or had a logo on the video or the picture sucked. I've tried converting directly to AVI with RM Converter and and it either crashed or had a logo on the video or the picture sucked. I've tried converting directly to DVD (just to try it) with RM Converter and it crashed. The conversion to VCD resulted in the best picture quality {I tried at least 20 different codecs in all} from the codecs available in this program. The only draw back was it played in hyper speed.

    Is there a way to fix either the MPEG with hyper-video or the duration-matching AVI to make an in-sync-as-much-as-possible VCD? Spare me any formula mumbo jumbo technical stuff, just tell me what to do with what program. I have VirtualDub, Goldwave, AVI2VCD, DivFix, DrDivx, DVD2AVI, GraphEdit, Headac3he, TMPGEnc, Video Fixer. If I need another program it needs to be a fully functional demo, not cripple-ware as this is a one time thing. I'm never converting another RM file ever! Wayyyyyyy too much trouble. I've wasted at least 100 hours processing on this one video alone.
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  8. Acidagent,

    thanks for the article. I had M-Audio Audiophile 2496 Soundcard. When I was doing a video capture, my audio was always behind the video. For NTSC video after 1 hour my audio was .100 of a second delayed - thatis 3 NTSC frames. I had no problem squeezing the WAV file afterwards to the correct length using GoldWave.

    Right now I changed the soundcard to Terratec Aureon 7.1 Universe. Now when I capture my audio is ahead of the video. In 2 hours it's .155 of a second ahead. Not a big deal, but still 5 NTSC frames. Now I need to stretch the file. Unlike squeezing, stretching may introduce some distortion and unwanted clicks. I tried it with Goldwave and it didn't do a good job. So I found your article. Very good idea. The only thing is that I don't like resampling with SoundForge or GoldWave. I use SSRC.exe to resample 'cause it gives far better quality than those 2. But it choked when I went from 47.999kHz to 48kHz.

    Anyway, I guess I should be telling my capture program to capture something like at 48001Hz and then just set sampling rate to 48kHz. I'll have look into it. I definitely don't want to resample on the fly 'cause it will give me worse quality than postprocess resampling.

    --Leonid
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    Hi where can i get the sound forge 6 because i can only get 8 and im using that and i cant open the mp2 audio because it says theres errors.
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  10. Member paros's Avatar
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    I have an uncompressed AVI and an uncompressed .WAV file for the sound. I need to mux them togethor, but the resulting video goes more and more out of sync (even though it is synced at the beginning). This guide requires that I convert them all into these weird off-the-wall formats, use 5 different apps, convert them back, and then convert them back again.

    Nothing in the world should be this difficult.

    If the problem is sampling rate, and nothing but sampling rate, shouldn't I be able to simply resample the damn wave file in CoolEdit, and then mux them as usual??

    I do not want to convert my wav file into "mp2" and convert my uncompressed AVI into MPEG, play software musical chairs, and then convert them all back at the end. It would take over 2 hours just to do all that, once!!!
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    Before making any changes, like cutting out unwanted sections:

    Open your AVI in VirtualDub.

    Under "Video" select "Frame Rate".

    In "Source rate adjustment" select "Change so video and audio durations match, OK.

    Under "Video" select "Direct stream copy".

    Under "File" select "Save as AVI".

    Save to the other hard drive.

    Check your new AVI's file info and you will see that the audio and video are the same length.

    Go ahead and cut the unwanted sections.

    Save back to the original hard drive making sure the video "Direct stream copy is still checked".

    This will probably produce an AVI with a frame rate of 29.968 or thereabouts which is still within the normal parameters of most encoding programs (TMPGEnc has no problems with it).
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    Originally Posted by paros
    I have an uncompressed AVI and an uncompressed .WAV file for the sound. I need to mux them togethor, but the resulting video goes more and more out of sync (even though it is synced at the beginning). This guide requires that I convert them all into these weird off-the-wall formats, use 5 different apps, convert them back, and then convert them back again.

    Nothing in the world should be this difficult.

    If the problem is sampling rate, and nothing but sampling rate, shouldn't I be able to simply resample the damn wave file in CoolEdit, and then mux them as usual??

    I do not want to convert my wav file into "mp2" and convert my uncompressed AVI into MPEG, play software musical chairs, and then convert them all back at the end. It would take over 2 hours just to do all that, once!!!
    If it's syncd in the beginning but gradually gets out of sync, then you most likely have different running times for the video and audio(makes sense doesn't it?). FIND OUT the running time of the video, use cool edit/audition or whatever and change the running time/length of the audio TO MATCH the running time of the video. In audition it's under time/pitch --> stretch. And NO if you already have a wav file you should NEVER have to convert to several formats and use several different software just to fix a simple sync problem.
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    ok let me just start by saying that every time i found myself having problems with an encoding job over the many years, more often then not my frenzied googleing led me here to the solution so thanks to the numerous people who took time out to help the noobs and experts alike


    this solution totally works and the only reason i felt the need to sign up and say so is because after years of randomly having this problem with no apparent solution this finally done the trick

    couple of things i wish to note

    1. soundforge did not work for me. it might be the best program in the world and maybe i got a bad copy or messed up codecs but try as i might i couldn't get the thing to work so i went with what i know and thats goldwave

    2. a justing audio length or time warping still left me with audio skew, so i stuck with the original suggestion of re-sampleing...... it worked

    the maths on this is pretty basic but its important you get it right so heres a quick lesson for those who are maffamatikally challenged like me

    1. when you open virtualdub and note the difference between audio and video durations you need to get the total difference as a percent (guesstimation is acceptable to a certain extent)
    simply divide the larger number by the smaller number (like i said pretty basic)
    2. once you have that number simply go to goldwave and times the current frequency by that number (should be some thing like 1.05 * 48000)
    3. once sampleing is complete just resave the file and you should be good to go (might need to tmpg audio back to mp1/2)
    4. remux or build dvd as normal

    thanks again to all those working on this solution
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    Hi all,

    I've read this thread with interest and LeChat's Goldwave suggestion was really helpful.

    I have a similar problem with .mp4 files which is starting to really frustrate me. I have a solution but there must be an easier way of dealing with this. Would be interested to hear if anyone has similar issues to me.

    I am trying to convert divx to mp4 (video H.264/AVC and audio AAC) primarily for playing on my PS3 (why can't it have Divx support built in??).

    I have been transcoding with eRightsoft's Super which I eventually managed to download. But I get the following problem:

    With the original Divx file - both sound and video are 1:58:52.053 in length and both are perfectly in sync.

    With the newly created mp4 - Quicktime Pro tells me that the audio track is the original length (above), but the video track has reduced to 1:58:50.7 - ie the video has shortened by about 1.3 seconds which causes the audio to gradully move out of sync until by the end of the film there is a 1.3 second gap.

    I assume this is frame rate issue - but I can't seem to be able to solve it. Super tells me that the original divx file has frame rate of 23.976 and in transcoding I specifically choose 23.976 in Super's menu. However, Quick time pro tells me that the new mp4 file has frame rate of 23.98.

    What I'm not sure of is whether this means that the frame rate has actually changed. This could just be QTPro rounding up to two decimal places. How do I tell?

    A maths exercise makes me suspicious that the frame rate has actually altered. If the frame rate has actually increased from 23.976 fps to 23.98 fps then a bit of maths shows that the run time of the file should reduce from the original 1:58:52.053 to 1:58:50.86, which is extremely close to the actual new run time of 1:58:50.7 (just 0.16 of a second off).

    So.... what do I do about this? Any suggestions???


    My own solution is this:

    1. I create my .mp4 file as above, getting a movie with audio out of sync by about 1.3 secs by the end.

    2. I take the view that it is easier to alter the sound rather than the video (even though the fault lies with the video). I open the mp4 in Quick Time Pro. I export the audio as a wav file.

    3. I open the wave file in Goldwave and use 'Timewarp' to shorten it to the same length as the video file using the option that simply resamples the file. Although this does increase the pitch of the audio the change is so small (an increase in pitch of approx 0.019%) that it is not noticeable. I save the file as a .wav file.

    4. I again open the original .mp4 in Quick Time Pro and delete the original audio track.

    5. I then copy and paste the new shortened audio file into the mp4 movie file.

    6. I then 'export' the file as a .mp4 using 'passthrough' for video and AAC for audio.

    Hey presto - a movie file in sync.


    But..... although this works, it takes ages and I end up with a movie that is speeded up by 0.019%!


    Anyone got an easier way of doing this??


    Ben
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    UPDATE

    so I think I've finally narrowed this down to a problem with Super's encoding. I had a source file at 25fps. After converting at 25fps the resulting mp4 was perfectly in sync; video and audio were the same length and video was playing at 25fps.

    The problem must be Super encoding at 23.98 when it should be encoding at 23.976.

    Anyone else with the same issue with Super - does this cause loss of audio synch with you?
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    Sorry for digging up an old thread but I wanted to personally thank Acidagent for his guide!

    I have a Realtek AC'97 Audio Onboard Soundcard and have been trying to record game play footage. When viewing my recorded footage I found the further into the video I go the more out of sync the audio is with the video (sound plays sooner than it should in the video). Now Iím able to fix this out of sync problem if I take the time to do it. I just have to find that magical Hz number to resample the audio at. I wonder if there is a way after doing this a few times I can figure out the Hz my soundcard is actually recording at, so I can figure out automatically what the Hz should be when I go to resample the audio instead of trying to line up the start of a specific sound in the audio to a specific frame in the video...

    Thanks again for shining some light on this problem for me!

    Wolfy
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    Originally Posted by Almost Human
    Before making any changes, like cutting out unwanted sections:

    Open your AVI in VirtualDub.

    Under "Video" select "Frame Rate".

    In "Source rate adjustment" select "Change so video and audio durations match, OK.

    Under "Video" select "Direct stream copy".

    Under "File" select "Save as AVI".

    Save to the other hard drive.

    Check your new AVI's file info and you will see that the audio and video are the same length.

    Go ahead and cut the unwanted sections.

    Save back to the original hard drive making sure the video "Direct stream copy is still checked".

    This will probably produce an AVI with a frame rate of 29.968 or thereabouts which is still within the normal parameters of most encoding programs (TMPGEnc has no problems with it).
    I capture VHS tapes with WinDV and everytime the audio goes slighly out of sync.
    I also use that method and so far it goes good
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